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RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 5:43:13 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Don't like the fact that you being an UNKNOWN makes you supect, and thus requireing more checking into your background until the level of information required has been reached? Generally reinforces the suspicion. ANYONE who is unknown to me is somewhat suspect, <snip>  Person A starts off with a significant head start because the information I need to be comfortable with them is easily and quickly available. This isn't to say that I would ignore person B at all but rather that because they chose to remain private it's going to take longer.


Maybe I'm thick ... I dunno ... but what are you talking about? Deciding whether or not to be friends with someone? Scene with someone? Get involved with someone? I honestly have no clue about the context. As for recommendations, I pretty much treat anything I hear about anyone with a grain of salt. For example, a lot of the professors I have enjoyed and have gotten the most out of were the ones everyone said to avoid, so I would assume it would be the same at some bdsm function. I prefer to make up my own mind about people ... but that's just me. But like I said ... maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying.

Oh. And girlie, I'll have a cup of coffee with you any day. (I've been practicing licking my eyeballs to trade for that plane ticket!)

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 5:59:18 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Considering you have called me "destructive" girlie I would still be very welcoming if I saw you at any of the many munches in our shared community.  I figure people are often different on the net than they are in real life and perhaps you are not so judgemental.


For the life of me, I can imagine why she wouldn't accept your gracious invitation.

Seriously, Michael, not to start a snark-fest, but if someone who seemed to take pleasure in battling, belittling, and insulting you, invited you to go somewhere in order for to prove your "realness" to them, would you do it?

If so ... you have my condolences.

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 6:37:16 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny

I'm sure a lot of people have similar stories. So, what do you do when your local scene isn't available or appealing?


I don't go...

quote:


How do you deal with the pressure to be "active in the scene" when that's not very feasible or when it's simply not to your taste?


there is no pressure except what you put on yourself.... 

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 6:49:59 PM   
Leatherist


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Reffences don't mean squat if you only provide the GOOD ones. The case of the former Spokane "community leaders" who kidnapped and raped the japanese exchange students are a really good case of how easy it is to bullshit people,they got jail sentences.

http://asianweek.com/2001_08_03/news_rapist.html

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 7:34:33 PM   
persephonee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
This would be judging people of whom you know zero. 'Not wise.

I can understand the sentiment, to an extent; where a person is known to a community, he/she can be referenced. On the other hand, however, not being known to a community doesn't equate to being suspect.


Of course it does. 'suspect' doesn't mean guilty. There are many who dare not step out of the shadows given the number of people they have fucked over, they would be recognsed and their next potential target likely to find out BEFORE they make the mistake of trusting them. Someone unwilling to step out of the shodows, someone 'private' is going to be suspect until proven that isn't the reason... assuming they ever get the chance to proove anything, but that comes along with the choice they make.



Coming into my community alone and with no local support system (all my friends are kinky but out of state) i played both ways...i met some partners online...on CM...and i met some via the local community....the ones that lasted and are my friends first and foremost and my regular partners are the ones that i met through the community munches and play groups. i was incredibly lucky to have found my friends. i would like to think that it is because i have such wonderful street smarts but in reality im sure its because my actions are being observed by experienced, level headed Doms and subs who honestly care about my welfare.
If i were asked, i would suggest the RT community as it just makes more sense to depend on word of mouth and actually seeing people interacting in a social setting than your own perception of how well someone types. i dont suspect more private people but i dont trust them as easily either and it takes a lot longer to verify a reference. i actually attended a munch and the sub i hit it off with the most ended up being a reference for a Dom about 2 days later...coincidentally...we thought that was pretty amusing.
OP- i am a single mother and had to prioritize things in my life to allow for my interests. i could just as easily be working as playing or attending events but i literally realigned my life to allow for that one night a week where i concentrate on me. Couldnt do it without my sitter...gotta love a good sitter. Cooperative childcare is something to look into...if you can find a group of mothers who all want to do something for themselves and are willing to take the other children on an alternating basis is the cheapest way to go...albeit complicated.
If you are having luck privately then continue on. im sorry you had such odd experiences with the groups etc...i belong to many groups and some of them kind of spar with other groups. As a nurse and a woman, political sparring is a part of my life and so i just sit back and watch the entertainment...there is always someone trying to judge someone else...im just here for the free popcorn and the second act. i would always suggest the local community but sometimes it doesnt pan out. Keep trying is my only thought.

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 7:43:21 PM   
Leatherist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

Reffences don't mean squat if you only provide the GOOD ones. The case of the former Spokane "community leaders" who kidnapped and raped the japanese exchange students are a really good case of how easy it is to bullshit people,they got jail sentences.

http://asianweek.com/2001_08_03/news_rapist.html


Another one for verification of the "Group leader" thing I spoke of.

They were VERY vocal about supporting SSC.

What a hypocrytical crock.

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news-story.asp?date=112900&id=s886130

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 7:45:51 PM   
RedMagic1


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Did you know them personally?

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(in reply to Leatherist)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 7:47:38 PM   
Leatherist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Did you know them personally?


No, but I personally know people who were in that community before and during the trial. I was out in the seattl;e community from 1995 until about five years ago. Then I got tired of the ubermistresse's bs.

What really gets to me, is that Ball wanted to MURDER these women to keep them silent, and only the other guy saying no way stopped him. And that he was filming them in an attempt to blackmail them into silence-what a total scumbag.

< Message edited by Leatherist -- 5/11/2008 7:51:00 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 8:46:35 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
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quote:

Faced with a choice between "person A" a memeber of the community known by some folks and "person B" private person with no references telling me they are in fact a decent person. Person A starts off with a significant head start because the information I need to be comfortable with them is easily and quickly available. This isn't to say that I would ignore person B at all but rather that because they chose to remain private it's going to take longer. Up to each of us how we want to restrict information about ourselves. But to do so without thought that the natural consequences may be that someone passes us by (cutting both ways)or that someone else reaches that level of intimacy first and thus we are left behind is short sighted.


I would prefer not to rely on references  by someone who has met a person and seen how that person plays in a public venue and then makes a thumbs up judgement based on that solely as being safe and sane and to be given a nod of approval as someone safe to be in a relationship with.    I learned long time ago that some people wear masks  and unless you know all aspects of the persons life that sometimes they can have ugly skeletons hiding in their closet.   eg the co worker in a large company who is thought of highly of  by co workers and management worked together for 17 years,  he was also well liked leader of cadets, most people that knew him would have given him nothing but praise, the big shock came when he was arrested and charged  for a string of multiple sexual assaults of female minors...this is one person I personally knew... I sure as heck did not suspect, there was no clues.  A lot of killers , rapists, spousal abusers , etc have been caught  totally surprising family, neighbours, co-workers   and friends that knew that very well, who sees the person almost daily and never suspected a thing.  Yes the person you see maybe 2 or 4 hours out of every month may appear to be a decent person, so over a 6 month period you may spend 10 hours around him, inorder to remain social respectful your not going to be able to really ask him any personal questions about him, the only thing a reference may truly be able to provide is whether he may have some skill in using say a flogger if he happened to attend a play party but it may not tell you whether he is a safe person in a more private setting where there is no one else around to observe, you may not learn if he is married or not and hiding his bdsm interests from his wife,  I personally do not feel that a reference unless they are involved for years is going to provide me with much of an advance lead that I can ask and determine thru discussion about, and in the course of a a week or two depending on the amount time in discussion I can learn far more about the person than you would seeing that person for 6 months to a year  at a once a month munch, for one  I have more freedom to ask very person questions that you are not able to, I can demand a real name, address and phone number if I am considering meeting which would allow me to do some background checking,  something you can't demand.  So unless the person has long time involvement and or possibly an organizer of events the reference does not offer much in the way of info   



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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 8:56:20 PM   
Wickad


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(fast reply)

Greetings,

My first experience with my (then) local community was to attend a meeting where they decided to dissolve the local NLA chapter - lol.  I then started work in a BDSM shop that masqueraded as an Adult Store.  My first r/t scene friend was a gay Leatherman.  I was introduced to the online BDSM world by my second 'scene' friend who later became my roommate.  He just happened to be putting on the local fetish night.

Online I found backstabbing and nit-picking and ... well, basically what some of this thread has been.  I found wannabes and trolls and people whose main interest was getting their rocks off.  This is not to say (for those who will pick this post apart) that I am opposed to getting your rocks off, but rather that I seek a connection via BDSM that is more than physical and may (or may not) be of a romantic nature.

Later, I met a woman who became a good friend of mine.  We met because we both had an interest in BDSM but we became friends because we both liked corsetry, we both had high standards, we both were educated, etc.  She was a submissive and mainly interested in sexual play and I was a Dominant mainly interested in service.  We did not become friends because of our mutual interest in BDSM.  Together, with the input of a 3rd, we created a BDSM group designed to foster safe play and BDSM education.  I've moved and we have grown apart but I still have a great deal of respect for her and all the things she does.

Upon getting to my new digs (in another province) I started a munch because there wasn't anything else going on and I was having a hard time meeting people local to me.  Many people in this area are in the closet and it is a small center so ... our munch group is pretty small.  I chat more online more than I used to (coming from a larger center) and I talk to a lot of local folks who don't want to come out to a munch.  I still meet a lot of trolls whose main interest in our munch is  how many single women will be there but ... they tend to not want to come when I tell them 'none' - lol.

Overall, I have had great experiences with the r/t world of BDSM and I've had mainly crappy experiences online.  This does not mean that I am willing to write off the whole online world but rather that I see it now as a tool to enhance my real time life.  Maybe those who've had good experiences online and crappy r/t experiences should use the r/t community as a tool to enhance their online BDSM activities.

I don't think one approach is better than the other.  However, if you don't like your real time community you might remember that .... "the rules (and content) of any group are set by those who show up".  If you aren't finding what you are looking for online (ie: you come to the forums to bitch about not finding a partner) ... and your real time community 'sucks' ..... maybe you should get involved and create the community you want.

Wickad

(in reply to Leatherist)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 9:00:47 PM   
Leatherist


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Or create one sans the control freaks and drama queens in power in the other.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 9:37:56 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I look at people who never get involved in the local community as suspect.


Yeah, but it's the pompous self apointed Internet Gurus who constantly name drop and spend every other post flaunting their extensive experience in the scene so they can attract submissives to use and abuse that you really gotta watch out for...

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 9:48:14 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

one needs to be a member there to be "safe".


I've heard that one before lol.
i have noticed recently the idea that a person is somehow more credible in whatever role they choose, if they are active in local BDSM communities.  i don't believe in that nonsense. 


It depends.

Take our past Internet troll, Bobgkin, for example.

He spent quite a bit of time posturing himself as expert and claiming to have extensive knowledge of what groups of people involved in BDSM were doing in an attempt to promote his version of the One True Way.

When the guy was challenged about it, the only experience he could provide was a couple decades of reading Internet messageboards about BDSM.

I would say this perspective you have gathered is more from the fact that there is a lot of people on the Internet who claim to be more than what they are without anything to back it up.

I openly admit that I have limited contact with the scene and limited experience with BDSM in general and most people take what I write based on the merits of my opinion alone.

quote:


Participation in the scene can also be a way for predators to narrow the prey.  There are dangerous people, posers, scammers and fakes that may be active in the BDSM scene, and genuine, committed, experienced people outside the scene.
 

Maybe, but if this is your reason for not participating, I can't say I find it an issue that is heavily grounded in reality and warranting not coming out to meet people.

quote:


i don't think it should be a criteria for being involved in BDSM.  Some people are private, some people can't be active at the risk of losing their livelihoods...children...(custody issues) some people just have all they want, and don't feel a need to be surrounded by kinksters on a social level. 


There is always going to be people who think the world begins and ends with the public scene. Fortanely, there is a whole lot more to life than that. I imagine there is people at the Local Knitting Club who diss all the Knitters out there for not being part of their cool group, too.

quote:


Part of the beauty of wiitwd is the freedom from judgement about any TRUE way.... it should allow for freedom and individuality in everyone's kink.


It's a great ideal, but not something grounded in reality regarding the people involved in BDSM. 15 minutes on this board is adequate testimony to realize that a lot of kinky folk are still judgemental as fuck.



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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 9:59:20 PM   
kyraofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
Some people don't feel any desire to go out in public and perform in front of other people or go to "munches" and talk about their most intimate activities. 


Perform?  Why do you choose this word for those who enjoy meeting others face to face and talking about what we like to do in our intimate relationships?  Most things that we discuss are of a no more intimate nature than what is discussed here on the boards.  We just enjoy doing this face to face with people as well as in text format. 

We also enjoy learning new things to incorporate in his play with us and watching others have fun.  What we don't enjoy is drama and politics.  As a result our involvement in the scene is usually limited to weekend events, the rare play party in the community that is nearest to us and meeting others in small gatherings.

quote:

So how does the so-called "vanilla world" handle this?  Most daters don't feel it necessary to be part of some group or "community" in order to become fully-informed about those they choose to date or become intimate with.  How are they ever to be protected from potential "bad," "suspect" partners if they don't have a local munch group or play party group to guide them and inform them all about their potential partner?  Frankly, that's a ridiculous notion.  "Vanilla" people meet mates, date, move in together, get married and whathaveyou every single day with no "community" guiding their decisions and filling them in on their partner's merits or lack thereof.  Why are BDSM'ers so different and so much more vulnerable than they are?  They aren't.  At least I'm not.


From my experience, people not involved in BDSM do have a very large community in which to gather information about the people they meet.  Anything from asking another friend what they know about this person they just met, to introducing them to family and then listening to their opinions and perceptions about the person.  I don't think any person makes decisions in a vacuum and they get the advice and opinions of many people before making commitments to a partner.  I just haven't heard them put the same labels to it as people in BDSM, but the actions are still similar.

Are people who engage in BDSM more vulnerable than those that don't?  I don't see how the answer to that question can be anything other than 'yes'.  People who engage in BDSM, regularly engage in activities that could result in significant legal trouble (assualt, kidnapping, imprisonment, etc).  All it takes is a disgruntled partner or someone looking to cause trouble and the consequences could be significant.  I don't think this vulnerability is limited to casual play partners either.

Knight's Kyra

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(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 10:05:17 PM   
Archer


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How many times and ways does it have to be said before the central ppoint gets through.
People with references have a head start (Not a free pass)
I need 96 lbs of information before I move from aquaintence to freind, and another 286 lbs of information before shifting from that to a relationship.
References are likely to give me a certain amount of that information very quickly by comparison.

It's not a value judgement on how you gather the information, but rather a simple observation of facts that I'll likely reach 96 lbs of data on a person quicker if they are part of the community, than if they are private.

All people are suspect until they reach that 96 lbs of data, reguardless of how I become aware of their existance.

I'm not saying to substitute a reference or even 300 of them for sitting down and talking with the person, I'm saying do it IN ADDITION TO the other things we have to do.
As for how much data on a person you can collect from a couple munches, if you do it the way you talked about sure you're not going to get alot of information however that is not the only tactic for munches and references. People get to know you you get to know people,(not for personal D/s relationships but a collection of freinds) That group of folks serves as a network of folks who may have known this person through 2,3,4,5,10 relationship cycles with various partners. John you met a year ago he's been in a relationship with nancy for 7 years, John knows the guy for 4 years of munches and parties and through various past relationships. That's good data and may tell you something the person themselves wouldn't for years, even.

A good reference provides a small amount of data, and it certainly isnt the only information I will take into account. But it is something that will advance the collection of data phase faster.
Some of the data will be collected first hand, either by personal observation or conversation for any person again regardless of how I become aware of them.

Maya non of the things you said "you may not find out" are guaranteed to be found out by conversing with a anonymous screen name with no guarantee that the person typeing it is the person in the profile pictures either or even when after a prolonged dateing period. You're tossing up roadblocks that can apply equally to any way of getting to know someone. Nobody is saying a reference settles all questions. But a reference provides you with someone elses perspective, and access to another set of ears.
As to the references provided only being cherry picked, sure they are. but again the idea that this is the stop of checking on someone is a faulse end only put there from the anti side of the issue. I'm going to check the references provided and then take that information and expand my search for data.

Reference A knows the person Im checking out from group 1 OK So I know that I can ask around group 1 and ferret out non cherry picked information.
Then non cherry picked person B is asked what they know about and think about the person. Average out the data and you'll get a more reliable picture of what the person is like.

More data is almost always better than less data.





(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 10:10:46 PM   
Leatherist


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People would have given the BTK killer high marks in refferences too, he was known as a great guy by many. So was Ted Bundy.

But the victims didn't say much to dispute it.

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 10:18:39 PM   
MadRabbit


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Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

It's not a value judgement on how you gather the information, but rather a simple observation of facts that I'll likely reach 96 lbs of data on a person quicker if they are part of the community, than if they are private.


This isn't a rebuttal, but just kind of expanding the discussion a bit and trying to introduce a different viewpoint.

I would agree with you if the scope of "references" was limited to within the communitiy itself....which is really my issue with the whole thing. I am not against the concept of "references", but the whole buisness leads to a closed in, hive mentality.

If I were to introduce you, too....

Both my roommates...
A few friends who have known me for years...
My landlord...
A few old chef buddies I used to work with...
The nice old lady next door to me who I water plants for when she is away...
My local Blockbuster video store where the people see me at least once a week (God, I love movies)...

Won't this be quite a lot of information, proving that I am a functioning member of society with healthy, good relationships with people around him with a small probability that I have corpses buried in my 6 by 6 foot backyard?

These are the references I use to build rapport with potential partners I meet and they work pretty well so far...



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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 10:19:33 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
As for you ownedgirlie, the stuff you say in public is not what you say in private and what I think of you would violate the TOS to mention here.  Given all that I would still be polite to you, which of course isn't the same as wanting to be around you. 


Um, so does this mean your "welcoming" invitations are off?!

Is there a way to "delete unread" while still reading the message?  There must be, else you couldn't compare against what I say in private. 

You're an odd duck, Michael, and you contradict yourself. You would be welcoming to me but you don't want to be around me?  You would be polite to me at a munch...but not on a message board?  You call yourself destructive and get angry when I agree?  What you think of me violates TOS?   Why would you think of me at all?  You might want to spend more time figuring out your contradictions than worrying about what you think of me.



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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 10:22:38 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
Hey, we've just got to meet up now.  You're an avid traveller and what with us both being "suspect" now for refusing to perform publicly, that's just one more thing we have in common................luci


I'd love to.  But you know you're not as "out there" as me until you cause someone's thoughts to violate TOS. 

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Not into the local scene. - 5/11/2008 10:26:45 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

But you know you're not as "out there" as me until you cause someone's thoughts to violate TOS. 



I'd take that as a reference...

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 100
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