RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice

RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:20:45 PM)
...Im thinking --something like this already happened in this [non declared] war,

rubberpet -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:23:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol What are your sources of foreign news? I'm just curious about which international community you are referring to. My experience is completely different. I'm just going by what I see on American news agencies. A U.S. soldier does something stupid like shooting a Koran and it's plastered all over CNN for weeks. CNN then documents that Al Jazeera TV is running it into the ground, too. I remember countless videos of burning the American flag and there is hardly any mention of it the next day. I also remember the horrifying video of that soldier dragged through the streets and set on fire. I don't know what's broadcasted in Europe or Asia, but I'm fairly certain there is very little repercussion for arabs in the media like Americans face. It's a double standard, in my opinion. What that soldier did was stupid and inexcusable. I may not like those people, but I don't believe in disrespecting a religion.

Owner59 -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:28:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rubberpet Oh great! Middle Eastern countries are going to hate the United States now and declare jihad on us. Wait...weren't they already like that decades ago?[8\|] You`re thinking that all people there think alike. Not true. But those who would otherwise like us,aren`t.Those inclined to not care,now will.We`ll lose friends we`ve won. And being moderate and the middle politically, will be tougher now.This will marginalize moderates,people we need desperately,if we`re going to succeed in the war on terror. This is not a step forward and won`t help.It will only hurt. But of course.if you couldn`t care less,then it`s no biggie. If they`re all the same and not worth caring about,then wtf? It`s what this will do to our GI`s safety and welfare,that I`m concerned with. It`s not something to be flippant about.

TheHeretic -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:30:23 PM)
An individual soldier does something dumb, it's an outrage. They behead an innocent (if stupid) American civilian, and we have to accept that aspect of their culture. Fuck them and their indignation. I hope the soldier smeared the bullets with bacon grease first.

Aneirin -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:32:03 PM)
How about this for a different approach, let people destroy flags, books and effigies, they are only things. Show them we don't care about things, as our freedom is in our hearts and as long as we remember this, we don't need flags, books etc.

rubberpet -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:33:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: rubberpet Oh great! Middle Eastern countries are going to hate the United States now and declare jihad on us. Wait...weren't they already like that decades ago?[8\|] You`re thinking that all people there think alike. Not true. But those who would otherwise like us,aren`t.Those inclined to not care,now will.We`ll lose friends we won. And being moderate and the middle politically, will be tougher now.This will marginalize moderates,people we need desperately,if we`re going to succeed in the war on terror. This is not a step forward and won`t help.It will only hurt. But of course.if you couldn`t care less,then it`s no biggie. If they`re all the same and not worth caring about,then wtf? It`s what this will do to our GI`s safety and welfare,that I`m concerned with. I was only being sarcastic with my statement. Believe me, I agree with you 100%. Whatever little positive ground the U.S. was making was probably shot to hell...no pun intended. Not all arabs are gun-toting nutjobs and I know that. There are plenty that welcome our help and actually want the ideals and freedoms the United States has. We certainly don't need to lose those allies.

Owner59 -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:35:56 PM)
Thanks for the clarification.

kittinSol -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:38:31 PM)
You're fairly certain about something? Do you see how that isn't necessarily consistent with fact? Fact is, the double-standard you are referring to is a product of your imagination and of the propaganda you hear from the strictly American media you trust as your unique source of information. Have you looked into alternative news sources? How frequently, for example, have you seen televised images of the one hundred thousand Iraqi civilians that have been killed since the US invasion of their country? War is atrocious; it's even worse when it's completely unecessary. But guess what? The soldiers that are dying in Iraq chose to go there. Their fate may be tragic, but not as tragic, in my eyes, as the deaths of the innocent civilians who die in their dozens of thousands. Perhaps it's time to broaden your informative horizon? Just a suggestion... (Do you know who invented algebra and the numbers you use every day?)

Owner59 -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:39:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic An individual soldier does something dumb, it's an outrage. They behead an innocent (if stupid) American civilian, and we have to accept that aspect of their culture. Fuck them and their indignation. I hope the soldier smeared the bullets with bacon grease first. No one accepted anything of a sort. How about if we just GTF out`a there?

Owner59 -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:44:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin How about this for a different approach, let people destroy flags, books and effigies, they are only things. Show them we don't care about things, as our freedom is in our hearts and as long as we remember this, we don't need flags, books etc. I still like the idea of putting our nuts and their nuts on an island together. Let them have their imperial/macho/religious "fun" with each other,and leave us the fuck out of it.

rubberpet -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:50:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol You're fairly certain about something? Do you see how that isn't necessarily consistent with fact? Fact is, the double-standard you are referring to is a product of your imagination and of the propaganda you hear from the strictly American media you trust as your unique source of information. Have you looked into alternative news sources? How frequently, for example, have you seen televised images of the one hundred thousand Iraqi civilians that have been killed since the US invasion of their country? War is atrocious; it's even worse when it's completely unecessary. But guess what? The soldiers that are dying in Iraq chose to go there. Their fate may be tragic, but not as tragic, in my eyes, as the deaths of the innocent civilians who die in their dozens of thousands. Perhaps it's time to broaden your informative horizon? Just a suggestion... (Do you know who invented algebra and the numbers you use every day?) Well, as with anything in the world, there are always three sides to an arguement: their side, your side, and the truth. No one really knows the complete truth or fact in the world. There are always spins that alter one's opinions. I will agree that war is tragic. I do feel for the innocent civilians that die by the hundreds in a single marketplace while shopping for food by lunatic suicide bombers. I can't begin to imagine that kind of horror on our soil. Our soldiers made the commitment and sacrifice to serve and defend our country. They didn't invade Iraq, they simply followed orders. Since you are so well read and informed, please feel free to enlighten us with your diverse news sources. I'm always up for learning something new.

kittinSol -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:53:05 PM)
I'm not that well read - just a little more curious and less trusting of what's slammed on my daily news plate. Also, it helps that I'm not from around here.

TheHeretic -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:54:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 How about if we just GTF out`a there? I really wish we could, O59, I have family who will be heading back into that mess soon. I'd have preferred we never went in, but leaving without something functional in place is a bad idea. I also happen to think that demonizing the troops, based on individual acts (as some on the left are known to do), while ignoring the atrocities which are the official tactics of the people we fight, makes the process harder.

TheHeretic -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 5:58:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol I'm not that well read - Res Ipsa Loquitur

kittinSol -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 6:00:03 PM)
Go ahead, take the piss out of my English sense of self-deprecation, Mr Bombastic [8D] .

asyouwish72 -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 6:10:40 PM)
I'd give the soldier(s) involved a lot more latitude than most of the people here seem inclined to... it's very easy to armchair quarterback when you are not at risk of being shot or blown to bloody bits every single day. Obviously, any rational person is going to see that shooting at the Quran is a public relations nightmare (but that's all it is... it's not like he was using people for target practice). Symbolically, attacking the book is like attacking the culture. Fine. Well, turn that on its head: symbolically, that book is trying to kill him and his comrades on a daily basis, and I'm not too surprised that he's not fond of it. If that's the worst atrocity that people who have been serving in a combat zone for years on end commit, I think we can live with it. It could be a lot worse (admittedly, on a handful of occasions, it already has been). After all... it's not like he was drawing cartoons about it or something. That'd really get people screaming for bloody vengeance. ;)

kittinSol -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 6:20:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: asyouwish72 If that's the worst atrocity that people who have been serving in a combat zone for years on end commit, I think we can live with it. It could be a lot worse (admittedly, on a handful of occasions, it already has been). Hmmmm, it was just the cherry on the cake, is that what you're saying?

Level -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 6:30:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: asyouwish72 I'd give the soldier(s) involved a lot more latitude than most of the people here seem inclined to... it's very easy to armchair quarterback when you are not at risk of being shot or blown to bloody bits every single day. Obviously, any rational person is going to see that shooting at the Quran is a public relations nightmare (but that's all it is... it's not like he was using people for target practice). Symbolically, attacking the book is like attacking the culture. Fine. Well, turn that on its head: symbolically, that book is trying to kill him and his comrades on a daily basis, and I'm not too surprised that he's not fond of it. No, some dicks are trying to kill him. There is no excuse for him fucking up like that....shoot those fuckers, instead of making things worse for everyone. quote: If that's the worst atrocity that people who have been serving in a combat zone for years on end commit, I think we can live with it. It could be a lot worse (admittedly, on a handful of occasions, it already has been). We might be able to, because we're way the hell over here. What if some of his buddies get their card punched over there by some irate jihadist, that got wound up over this? How To Put Out A Fire, Lesson 1: don't dump a shitload of gasoline on it.

asyouwish72 -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 6:30:58 PM)
quote: Hmmmm, it was just the cherry on the cake, is that what you're saying? No, what I'm saying is that really, shooting a book is just, well... shooting a book. If people want to get their noses out of joint about the symbolism involved, that's great. But no one was hurt. I could go outside a light a copy of the Bible on fire if I felt like it, and while it might offend some people, it would not actually harm anyone. So sure, this was a stupid thing to do... but he didn't go out an massacre a crowd of people. It's a tempest in a teapot. Given the general disaster that Iraq has devolved into, it's actually almost quaint. No bombings, no beheadings, just a few damaged pieces of paper. Life goes on.

kittinSol -> RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice (5/18/2008 6:38:39 PM)
It's possible that you are forgetting that in such an incendiary environment as Iraq, any gesture of provocation has the potential to start something bigger. It's not difficult to put yourself in people's shoes. Imagine for a minute that a foreign power has taken over your country, dispersing its troops all over the territory, and that they are shitting on your flag - or whatever it is you hold dear - just to spite you. After years of suffering, it's plausible you'd blow your top off and shoot a few of them in retaliation. So all in all, it would be a fucking stupid thing to do... hypothetically, and in reality, as in this sad, pathetic incident.

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