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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/20/2008 6:42:09 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

It means you live in a fantasy world-totally divorced from any idea of what human nature is all about.


Well I've always said I love my fantasy world.   Where else do pineapples dance?!

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/20/2008 7:02:09 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

In the Bible it says, as I recall, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

Basically, I take this as meaning that all of our relationships alter and shape us in a variety of ways.  My Owner just has a much greater role in shaping me.  It's also important to remember that I have a role in her personal growth as well.  We're both better off for our relationship, and we've both been irrevocably altered by our relationship.  We can't go back to who we were before.  That's just how things work.  She's sharpened me, and God-willing I've sharpened her as well.

DV's Fox

Well said..

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/20/2008 7:54:31 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		I decided to answer this without having read the thread first because I didn't want the answers of others to color my own reply.  Instead I wanted to just focus on my own thoughts on the matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

For all the Dom/mes out there;
"What does shaping and molding somebody mean to you on a personal level"

That phrase "shaping and molding", for me personally is connected both with responsibility, and with effort and with reward.  The reward is what I see most focus on (and among some, the only thing they even consider). 

The reward is the end result of having shaped and molded someone to be what I desire, someone who is better able to be useful to me, bring me pleasure, make my life more comfortable... it is a selfish pursuit, but I have no problem with that.  But, and here's the catch... it has a price. 

Part of that is the effort required to achieve that reward.  Whether you call it "shaping and molding" or "training" or "teaching"... all of it requires a lot of effort, applied consistently, and over an extended period of time to achieve results.  That means an investment of considerable time and energy on my part.  It means correcting behavior even when I'm tired, it means providing encouragement even when I'm distracted by a dozen other things, it means being consistent even when I just don't feel like it. 

Beyond that, there is also the responsibility that comes with it.  If I "shape and mold" someone to be a better servant, or companion, or slave, or pet or whatever for myself I have a responsibility to ensure that doing so doesn't "harm" them.  Harm can be a very subjective thing.  For example, let's say a dominant decides to mold a submissive into a deeply servile and devoted companion... with the consent of the submissive.  But, suppose the dominant had no intention of a long term commitment, would that not then be at least questionable if not entirely irresponsible?  What I mean to say is, what is or isn't irresponsible has to be considered within its context.  If a dominant intended to entirely subjugate the Will of a submissive, making them entirely dependent on the dominant... that might be considered irresponsible outside of a long term commitment... but, if the dominant were prepared to support and care for that submissive for the rest of their life, is that really harmful?  Some would likely say yes, because it flies in the face of many dearly held Western standards, particularly those of supposed equality and independence.  Personally, I concern myself with more practical standards and pragmatic definitions of things. 

I can accept people doing pretty much as they please so long as they are willing to fully accept the consequences of what they do... and find that most aren't willing to do that.  Want to entirely enslave someone, fine... but are you prepared to accept the full responsibility and consequences of that?  Want to humiliate and degrade a submissive... fine... but are you prepared to deal with the aftermath, the effects of that?  Want to shape and mold that submissive in to your fantasy bimbo-slut-pet... fine... have you thought it through... are you certain that's what you really want... are you prepared to live with it?

I imagine some will disagree with my view, which is fine.  A few might agree.  I don't claim to see things as others do, nor to think or believe as others do.  These are my thoughts on the question asked.  To sum up my answer, I might phrase it this way.

I personally believe a dominant can shape and mold a submissive into anything they can imagine provided they have the ability to do so, that they have considered the consequences of doing so, and that they are prepared to fully accept the responsibility for doing so.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/20/2008 9:18:19 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

It means you live in a fantasy world-totally divorced from any idea of what human nature is all about.


What if your nature is to divorce yourself from how the rest of humanity lives?  On some level isn't that what BDSM is all about?  I AM creating a fantasy world for BSB and I, she craves a man who is strong enough to mold and shape her who at the very same moment loves her for who and what she is.  I crave a wonderful woman who is amazing and yet one whom I can mold and shape.  Fuck how the rest of the unhappy world thinks people should live, I am pig headed enough I am going to make my own god damn reality.  I cry and sob at chick flicks because I am a hopeless romantic and I will let nothing stand in my way of creating that for BSB and I and I think that if we can do what we have done despite only seeing each other for a few days a month that we can be that happy couple that annoys the hell out of everyone because they still act like teenagers in fluffy puppy love doing stupid sappy stuff for one another.

So you want to live in Film Noir, be my guest, I want to live like Nick and Nora Charles meets James Garner and Gena Rowlands in the Notebook...

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/20/2008 9:21:57 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I prefer living within an overall society-and seeking to change it-not evade it.

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/20/2008 9:25:48 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

I prefer living within an overall society-and seeking to change it-not evade it.


Don't mind me, that was directed at your sentiment not you, a sentiment clearly shared by quite a few here.

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/20/2008 9:45:15 PM   
SleepyDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Ray, it's a round trip ticket.  It's not like peeps are pounding down my door to find me where I am now or anything. Sheesh.



Hey Cali I was pounding down your door to find you so I can "shape and mold" your fine ass into a nice round red pinkish hue, but you weren't there.

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/20/2008 11:05:57 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Well this thread has highlighted yet again the perils of using words to communicate! How words can carry such different connotations for different people. How they can be seen as positive or negative, one-sided or two-sided ... it's quite amazing really. My take is:
* shaping and molding as in CHANGING happens on both sides of a relationship in the process of developing and living in the relationship. If it stays absolutely static, it's likely dead. Whether it's positive or negative for the participants depends on the nature of the relationship, how it is negotiated and played out. It may or may not be a conscious thing for either or both participants. But if they are alive, breathing and relating, change will happen. That's life. And it doesn't just happen to 2 people in love ... when I teach a class, I shape and mold them AND they shape and mold Me too. And hopefully we're all better off for that.
* the advantage to Me of a power exchange relationship is that there is a lot greater likelihood of such change being "above the table" ie exposed, talked about, and hopefully mutually agreed upon than in vanilla relationships where I've not often seen (note I didn't say never!) such in depth and open discussion occur. This means it is up to each participant to negotiate what direction change should be channelled into, and to be reviewed regularly.
* the only person who can make the change occur is the person doing the changing. The best the other can do is educate and support it. If someone flatly does not want to change something about themselves ... or even if they do want it but aren't prepared to actually do the work of implementing the change ... it's not going to happen, at least not on an internalised and permanent basis.
* I'm not perfect, Master's not perfect and any sub I get won't be perfect either. We're all "diamonds in the rough" and part of the fun in life is helping others knock off bits of rough and expose more of the beauty of the stone within. I'm nearly 52 and I know there is much more I can learn and can change about Myself. I don't consider this to be "it" ... who I am and who I will stay. That concept is rather shocking to Me, what would be the point of living longer if it was? I am a continual work in progress. Master has knocked some rough edges off me and i am grateful ... stopping my bad habit of rocking all the time has been an amazing and obvious change for the better. That took Him to bring it to my attention again and again (it's an unconscious habit) AND me to have the will and willingness to stop doing it when He made me notice it. It has certainly made me an easier person to talk to! I now feel sorry for the generations of My students who probably sat in class feeling seasick because of My movements LOL! Master is also a work in progress and i have helped Him with some of His rough edges. By insisting that He handle all the lawyers and paperwork involved in buying this house ... He acknowledges now that was valuable empowerment for Him as He was quite nervous of that before, now He knows He can handle it. At the time He was just a teeny bit peeved off with me LOL! No doubt any sub I find will take a bit of shaping and molding too to best fit into this family ... and at the same time, Master and I will be undergoing some changes to help him or her fit in too.

I also agree very much with Padriag's comments about responsibility. Sure, educate and support change as much as you like BUT you must be willing to take responsibility for that. In My own life, I have My first hubby to thank for bringing out the Dominant side of Me (though it wasn't consciously bdsm). I think once he did he thought "OMG what have I done?" LOL as no longer did I always agree with him! Ultimately it led to an amicable split once we realised we wanted to head in very different directions in life ... yet 17 years later we are still friends. Similarly, when I first began teaching I thought "Oh my god, I have these kids future lives in my hands!" And I have never forgotten that. And in D/s, it is very much the same from both sides of the slash. Our future lives together are in Our hands. It pays for Us to be on the same page about where We want those lives to go. So for Us it was about finding someone who's a pretty good fit to start with, someone who has a lot going for them and a willingness to change the things that are holding them back. Not quite a "fixer upper" as was used here, but someone who is open to learning about themselves and seeking growth and mind expansion.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/20/2008 11:39:56 PM   
StormsSlave


Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline 		I think I can speak for My Lord and myself on this one.  We both agree that we were complete human beings coming in to this.  He chose me in part because of that completeness.  We don't need one another to be complete ourselves: this way when we choose to be in one another's company it's a free fall into love and not co-dependency.

My Lord does NOT have a pygmalion complex.  Certainly, we voice to one another our thoughts and feelings on everything, but My Lord does not feel the need to "Shape and Mold" me, nor do I him.  The cornerstone in our relationship is honesty, and in that honesty to one another, the best that we can do for each other is to let each other be who we are.  I'm not trying to change him (isn't that what "shape and mold" means, after all?) I am merely content to enjoy the pleasure of who he is, as he does me.

As for developing together, we do that well.  He is My Lord, but he is My Lord because he listens to me, cares for me, and puts Us before all other things.  I am His Love because I care for him, and put him and Us before all things.  If a behavior either of us exhibits is damaging to the relationship, we discuss the need for change.  I never feel as if he is motivating me to be anything but the blunt, sarcastic, occasionally funny person that I have always been.  I have never felt more like me in my entire life.

Copper spent...time for chocolate.

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/21/2008 2:02:32 AM   
Justme696


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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
What if your nature is to divorce yourself from how the rest of humanity lives?  On some level isn't that what BDSM is all about?  I AM creating a fantasy world for BSB and I, she craves a man who is strong enough to mold and shape her who at the very same moment loves her for who and what she is.  I crave a wonderful woman who is amazing and yet one whom I can mold and shape.  Fuck how the rest of the unhappy world thinks people should live, I am pig headed enough I am going to make my own god damn reality.  I cry and sob at chick flicks because I am a hopeless romantic and I will let nothing stand in my way of creating that for BSB and I and I think that if we can do what we have done despite only seeing each other for a few days a month that we can be that happy couple that annoys the hell out of everyone because they still act like teenagers in fluffy puppy love doing stupid sappy stuff for one another.

So you want to live in Film Noir, be my guest, I want to live like Nick and Nora Charles meets James Garner and Gena Rowlands in the Notebook...


well said....people should live how they want. Why be unhappy in this life, when you can bent it to your likings.
( and I see you put your little curses back in to it :P   cuteeeeeee. I know now that it is passion..not anger)

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 5/21/2008 2:04:03 AM >

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/21/2008 2:23:53 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

I prefer living within an overall society-and seeking to change it-not evade it.


What slices of overall society?  There are so many to choose from?  Personally, I think this has nothing to do with evasion.   Actually, my world works a little differently compared to yours, no big deal for me.  There are some aspects of overall society I have a distaste for.   The age old battle of individualism vs. social groups.

In terms of shaping and molding, SlaveGirlJoy, made a post on the Wanting to be needed or needing to be wanted thread.   Her words resonate with the reality of my world. 

quote:

slavegirljoy:

...In fact, every Dominant i have ever been intimately involved with, always did a lot to help me to be more independent and more self-sufficient.  They helped me to continue my education.  They mentored me in my career.  They pushed me to pursue hobbies and interests.  And, they encouraged me to rebuild and maintain relationships with family members and friends.  They wouldn't let me beat-up on myself, too much, or feel sorry for myself, ever.  And, my Master has had me get a driver's license and life insurance for my offspring's security.  None of them ever tried to make me dependent on them.
 
Sometimes, that made me feel like they were trying to prepare me for the day when they would get rid of me but, really they were just wanting me to be more capable of dealing with life, on my own, just because it makes it a lot easier to get through life that way, whether alone or with someone else. 


I honestly don't think my reality is too off base, and lost in some fantasy.  It's obvious that some other Dom/Masters (whatever true title, one wants to slap on it) and I are the like mindset and belief.

However, if I want to spend 1/2 my life based off from a Roman theme, Gorean, or whatever, long as I can still function within the scope of over all society, Why not?  There is also the Goth Lifestyle, for instance.   OK, it's simply a blending of different sub-cultures and lifestyles together with the BDSM lifestyle. 

Some People enjoy living life as a Yuppy, Some enjoy their Red Neck Lifestyle, Some enjoy being Goth, Some enjoy the Whole Corperate business role, Some people enjoy the whole Tribal thing.

My Reality is that there are many different sub-cultures in this world, this is a Proven Truth.  I have the freedom at any time to be or not be part of these sub-cultures.  I even have the freedom to build and start my own.  

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/21/2008 3:17:21 AM   
gypsygrl


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From: new york state
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quote:

I prefer living within an overall society-and seeking to change it-not evade it.


Society is nothing but the people its composed of and the various institutions--formal and informal--that regulate their interaction.  By changing the way we interact with each other, we change society.  So, if someone wants to create and enact a fantasy, they are doing the sort of thing that social reformers have long done.  The fantasy has always been the germ of social change for it's in fantasy that humans envision something beyond what's already given.  A lived fantasy is utopia realized.

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/21/2008 4:02:35 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Note to Self:  Avoid using the words, shape or mold, because she might drop her barbie dolls and run away screaming for her life.

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/21/2008 7:11:50 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

Note to Self:  Avoid using the words, shape or mold, because she might drop her barbie dolls and run away screaming for her life.


Why conform?  My Master didn't drop words from his vocabulary simply because I might not like them.  He says things I don't like because that's who he is and what he believes and I love him because of it.  I would much rather be owned by someone who stands by his words and beliefs than someone who was afraid to offend me with them. 

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/21/2008 7:21:59 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The thing with the Pygmalion obsession is that the sculptor runs the risk that his statue will shun him once he has finished perfecting and polishing her.


As I noted, it is amazing to me what some people can do to words like "shape", "mold", "fix", etc. without knowing what is meant by each individual...using the term...means by it.  Now, we have "molding and shaping" as obsession.  That's a pretty big leap, isn't it?  And given that submissives enter into a relationship wherein it is presumed that there is a commitment on both parts to molding and shaping and consent has been given for it to occur, then even in the extreme case noted above, consent was given.

What strikes my cynical nature here is that this scenario, in the bare bones way presented, would be just about as it is for some...let someone else do the hard work and maintain the drive needed to help you be all that you desire to be and need help to become and then, let SOMEONE else enjoy the result of someone else's labor.  It would be...with apologies...like beth, now that Merc has put so much time and effort into helping beth in her transformation from what she was before she met Merc into what she has become---a transformation desired by both--- through hours of hard work and guidance and nurturing and teaching (that would be shaping and molding and training) , taking herself from Merc and giving herself to someone richer and better-looking.

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/21/2008 7:42:44 AM   
pettingdragons


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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenixinchains
To shape and mold a person, to me, would mean to have a major role in assisting them become a person they want to be. Something that would happen in the relationship between a Journeyman and an apprintice,  Otherwise it would be breaking and reassembling.
Have i been shaped or molded. i would rather think i have been sharpened, i have been well forged


this slave completely agrees.....Master molds and shapes girl to my personality according to that and girls skills.....not to change but to enhance...

pettingdragons
**Master Dragons considered slave**

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/21/2008 7:44:43 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		of
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

I'm somewhat suprised that shape and mold carry the negative connotations that is does for a number of people.  


I can't speak for all submissives but I suspect that much of the distaste stems from the impression that many here claiming to be dominants appear to only be looking for a solution to all their prior relationships woes.  They want the benefits of a relationship but do not wish to actually develop a relationship... they want a living, breathing blow-up doll and have gotten the impression that CM and sites like it are somewhere they can shop for one.  

In that context, the "shaping and molding" line feels an awful lot like bargain hunting.

I wouldn't like to be treated like a bargain bin item... something slightly flawed or needing repair that will have to do because the top-of-the-line item was either unavailable or out of your price range.


I can't speak for all dominants but while there may be many that indeed fall into the category you describe...those seeking to have the relationship without the work of a relationship (dealing with someone as they are, etc., etc.)...there are those of us who do seek the relationship.  But, as has been noted on here before, wanting a relationship with a submissive is NOT the same as wanting a relationship with a vanilla woman.  I said earlier that I look for someone who matches up with me...that I feel chemistry with...that is NOT in need of major fix-up and repair---I am not a therapist and will not be one---but that does not mean that I won't train her.  It does not mean that I will not ask her what areas of her life she would like to improve in...whether it be chronic shyness or procrastination or always running late...and then set about doing what I can to bring about changes in those areas.  It does not mean that I will not ask her what area is within herself that she would like to bring to the forefront and then set about shaping and molding her so that it can be.  Now, some see that as being supportive but refuse to see that as training/molding/shaping because the term connotes negativity for them.  Just because a term means something negative for you does not take away from the fact that it is the proper term of use, as defined by the dictionary and the person using it. 
If the submissive comes into the relationship with the idea that she is perfect and that she needs no training/shaping/molding because it is "always" negative, then, as ur2badored asked, what exactly is she submitting to?  Other than something that is dominant in the way that fits the submissive perfectly?  If that is what is wanted...dominance without shaping or molding or training but only love and support and caring for the exact person that the submissive is, as she exists now, it can be found.  But...that does not make those of us who feel that we train and shape and mold and, in doing so, bring out the better part of our partners so that not only is the D/s dynamic ienhanced (which is what some dominants and submissives only seek), but the relationship outside the D/s dynamic is also improved, wrong. 

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/21/2008 8:31:19 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		FR~

Cool topic that makes me think....

Whenever a dominant has come at me with the "I want to shape, mold, train you to be...." I usually see it as a sign to run away FAST. It comes across to me as fantasy/Castlerealm type BS that really says "I have this fantasy Barbie doll/Stepford wife/Story of O idea of what I want and I want to turn you into it". Or it sometimes gives me the impression that somehow these men think that by crowining themselves with the "Dominant/Master" moniker they believe they are superior as human beings who are qualified to be "fixers" or "saviors". I'm not a lump of clay or an animal that needs to be trained and it is far more important for me to be with a partner who likes who *I* am and accepts me for me instead of seeing me as someone who will only be viable after they change me into someone I'm not.

Now, with that said, I believe that in every healthy relationship people morph and change as a result of being in the relationship with each other. I believe that in every healthy relationship the people involved should be flexible enough to bend to meet their partners needs....and care enough about each other to want to meet their wants and desires. Some of that happens unconciously as a result of simply being with each other and some of it happens as a result of communication of said needs, wants and desires. So in that respect, I believe that we all shape, mold and train each other. Relationships that last require work, so if your goal is to have a long term relationship with someone you learn the likes, dislikes, needs, wants and desires of your partner and you do what you can to keep each other satisfied.

I will also go on to say that we all have areas in our lives that we would like to improve, habits we'd like to break. I don't know of anyone, dominant or submissive, who sees themself as a perfect being that needs no improvement. Many dominants can only see themselves in the role of being the one to help the submissive realize her goals in life changes....but I see nothing wrong in a submissive who helps her dominant realize his also. Should we look at that as the submissive is molding, shaping and training the dominant? I don't think so, I see that as something that partners in healthy relationships simply do for each other.

edited to add that if a dominant really wants to shape or mold me, what *I'd* find really useful is if they could re-shape and mold my breasts back to the position they were in when I was 18

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 5/21/2008 8:33:17 AM >

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~erin~

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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/21/2008 9:42:04 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		A friend and I were discussing this last night, and what I find interesting is that we were discussing the same process, but using different terms for it.  I prefer guiding/encouraging/supporting; my friend leans towards molding/shaping/training.  In what WE were discussing as it applies to me, the end result is the same, we were just using different words to describe the same process.  So it occurred to me later... if someone that I was involved with knows certain words have negative connotations to me, even though I know they view those words differently, then if they choose to use them, they do so knowing that deep down inside it makes me feel that I am not good enough for them.  And that is their choice.

Kind of like saying "you're a slutty bitch" or "you're MY slutty bitch."  Use the first phrase if you like, but know that it makes me feel cold and distant and will yank me out of good headspace in a nanosecond.

Oh yeah... and I'm with mist on the bewbage thing.

Cali


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RE: Shaping and Molding - 5/21/2008 9:59:16 AM   
laura2161


Posts: 254
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From: Duluth, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick
Oh yeah... and I'm with mist on the bewbage thing.

Cali


Slight hijack but put me into this camp as well :-)



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(in reply to CalifChick)
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