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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 5:00:08 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		And you're finding that people in the "BDSM realm" think it's a lot of mularkey.

I mean, really, what does this sentence mean?

quote:

they we are to become something like knights in shining armor and if we dont conform to their standards then we are considered outcasts


"Considered outcasts"? "Considered" by whom? (And who are "we," for that matter?) You're talking as though there is some kind of society governed by the High Council of Femsubs, and if doms don't conform to their edicts, they are ostracized. Has something like this happened to you? Otherwise, I can't understand all the bitterness that you (and JustaTop) are displaying.

People are just people. Some subs want a dom that they can twist around their finger. Other subs don't. It's not like there's an organization or cabal that enforces how people are supposed to carry out their relationships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

I just wanted everyones take on the subject in the BDSM realm not just the Gorean........a little less noise ratio here

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 5:11:18 PM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		no I could care less about being an outcast personally........lmao........just I see a power shift among people and was wanting to get to the truth of the matter....then ya know I get told I expect any woman to grovel on thier knees before me thing.....kinda funny how fast the defenses spring up when asking the questions I ask....most believe it is a symbiotic relationship...ie one cant be without the other...I disagree, am I not a Master even if I dont own a slave/sub........then other say how the symbosis is balanced between the two...isnt a sub a sub without a Master or vice versa? Im not saying there should be a organization on how to carry out a relationship either I completly understand that personal differences will vary from person to person.......but the fact remains that I see and im not the only one whom see's the submissive controlling the relationship through limit setting and gosh forbid those ones you cant dare to breach so this leaves you the Dominant looking for the "one" that can satisify you or vice versa...where did the tolerance go and the mutual respect goto? You would hold your patner back by limit setting? kinda ironic isnt it? I thought this was about finding pleasure together without reservations? and for those of you that have swung the pendulum as far as thinking im talking of illegal activities dont even got there with this thread.....im not trying to bash or dash anyones belief...just trying to get an understanding here...

Master Six

Master six

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 5:40:54 PM   
Wolfie648


Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
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quote:

I brought this subject up as I have seen many submissive say they are the ones in control of the relationships through their wants and desires........im not saying by any means ignore the wants and desires....but there is a huge number of subs/slaves that are saying that if thier individual wants and desires arent met then they will simply walk.........viewing these statements on the boards leads me to believe that there is a power shift in the dynamics of any BDSM relationship


I think (strictly my opinion) the important word here is power (or power exchange). I define my relationship with my slave with the word power. i.e. Who has it?

I don't get along with playing with or having a BDSM relationship with 'subs' that have a long list of wants (including safe words - now don't get me wrong safe words definitely have a place - I just expect that _after_ a certain period of time if _my_ slave doesn't feel comfortable/safe/trusting enough to relenquish that safe word, they aren't for me.). To me that means they have the power in those specific areas (their list of wants). For me I want TPE - for others maybe they don't mind meeting that list of wants from their sub - PPE (partial power exchange). The words dom and sub don't even come into the conversation if you think of a BDSM relationship in terms of echanging power.

As long as the people involved are happy I say great.

D (owner of j)



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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 6:48:27 PM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

Heh. Seems that everyone in the Gorean forum agreed that BDSM doms are really the bottoms in their relationships, and since that got really boring, they decided to move on and try the same topic in the BDSM forums.

Really? Perhaps we should decide that all the gorean masters are just subs to John Norman following his every command without question and then we can take that topic over to their little world for discussion.

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 6:56:45 PM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		see already and us against them thing...funny as it is...the law of natural order has been around longer than the Gor series...John Normans work just revived something that was hundreds of years old and brought it back to life again.......Goreans dont have a little world and neither do BDSM'rs this is way off topic...lets not try and have this thread lock by waging war against each other

Master Six

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 7:05:56 PM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

I have seen in many threads that the Dominant's are conforming to what is expected that a sub/slave's ideas of a what a good Dominant should be......In this sense are they actually modeling all Dominants to become something more accepted in the western romance novels........they we are to become something like knights in shining armor and if we dont conform to their standards then we are considered outcasts......I have seen many threads that if you are a "softy" you'll tend to get much further within the sub/slave population........I just wanted everyone else's take on this subject

Master Six


Maybe it is true in some cases but not in all cases. I can only speak on my behalf & those in my close circle of friends & those I interact with socially. In my case, when I am interviewing/dating a potential submissive & discover that they wish me to conform to their pre-determined dynamics & voice that my model of interaction is not proper & that I should be more of a softy... hmmm, my next words would be "check please". I did not conform myself to fit into an absolute vanilla existence, I do not plan to conform myself to fit a submissive romantic fantasy of what they want in a D/s relationship.

I am all about compromise & I always considerate of my partner, but I am the type of dominant that feels that ultimately I am the one deciding what takes place within the relationship.

quote:

Be true to yourself. Some will love you, some will hate you, but you'll always be able to face yourself in the mirror.

Lady Zephyr

quote:

JustaTop:The real beauty of diversity is that if you merely hold true to your personal standards,and express them with fortright honesty-you can probably eventually find a match.

Probably one reason so many of these bdsm relationships fizzle and die so quickly. if one settles,the end result will be resentment in about 90% of cases. Even if you can lie convincingly to another-the lies you tell yourself are the ones that will eventually tear your heart out.

It's only a matter of time.


I agree with both of these statements. The one thing that is guaranteed to happen when one person conforms to anothers ideals is to be absolutely miserable. Whether you are gay & conform to a het-relationship, submissive with limits & conform to a hardcore M/s relationship where limits are tossed out like yesterday's news, or any other scenario... if you compromise yourself to the extent that you are false about your ultimate intension/desire is... someone will be hurt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

I brought this subject up as I have seen many submissive say they are the ones in control of the relationships through their wants and desires........im not saying by any means ignore the wants and desires....but there is a huge number of subs/slaves that are saying that if thier individual wants and desires arent met then they will simply walk.........viewing these statements on the boards leads me to believe that there is a power shift in the dynamics of any BDSM relationship........


This sounds like the bitter ramblings of those that jump into this with limited preparation to the depth & commitment truly needed for an solid relationship of any form of power exchange. Let them walk, they would most likely be a waste of time. No silk pillows laying around my house for them to park their pretty princess asses on.

quote:


I am Gorean so I inquire about this subject as I see it through my eyes........I dont quite understand if the desires arent being met then the relationship is considered not to be healthy...I can see this but in the same token did the sub/slave not give their word in their submission to their Owner? I have seen many threads where some are saying it is ok to find another instead of working through what ever behaviour needs to modified seeing that the Dominant is in the wrong for ignoring the wants and desires of the sub/slave....I see only one side of the story most times and not both........


I fail to understand what being or not being Gorean has to do with anything. Too often people place differences within their relationships based simply on a modality...

quote:

starshinedowned
Humans are Humans, and All seek happiness. This will and does include anyone from the BDSM venue or Gorean or any other label you choose to adhere to. I have read just as many BDSM storys of relationship demise as I have Gorean. Why?..because we are all humans looking for happiness.
<snip>
Everyone be they bdsm sub/slaves or gorean slaves or bdsm tops/doms or gorean masters is subjected to this. To believe anything else (to me) is dellusional thinking.


I could not have said it any better, so I will just quote starshinedowned.

quote:

Is not the Dominate not the one whom decides which wants and desires are to met in the time frame they choose? I have even seen where that the sub/slave has had their limits pushed and repelled the advance by the Dominate threating that this isnt to be crossed or else....confusing as to whom is really in control......

Master Six


quote:

JustaTop: Some use submission as an excuse for kinky sex.


Again so much of this blah-blah-blah read online is because someone gets their panties in a twist when actual structure & rules are in place & expected to be followed. Yet, we are all human, we have a mind, we are free-thinkers, decision makers & grow up in a world where we expected to make choices. Can we really blame a person for changing their mind? Can we really expect a person to give up every instance of control to another person & be comfortable with this at all times for the rest of their lives? Yes, some people may be capable of it & may even feel in their hearts & minds that they can do it, but until you actually do it for real... there really is no way to know.

quote:

happypervert
Really? Perhaps we should decide that all the gorean masters are just subs to John Norman following his every command without question and then we can take that topic over to their little world for discussion.


happypervert, I like your twist.

For years & years both online & in real time settings I have asked a question that is either passed over or ignored. It was my understanding that Gorean Masters were in fact men of Gor & that the few earth men they did captured were used as silk slaves because they were of course weak pathetic creatures that simply did not measure up to their (Gorean) physical stature... so why do the earth men that practice Gorean methods expect to have women surrender to them in the same manner that they surrendered to these men of Gor?



< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 10/23/2005 7:10:03 PM >

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 7:16:03 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

For years & years both online & in real time settings I have asked a question that is either passed over or ignored. It was my understanding that Gorean Masters were in fact men of Gor & that the few earth men they did captured were used as silk slaves because they were of course weak pathetic creatures that simply did not measure up to their (Gorean) physical stature... so why do the earth men that practice Gorean methods expect to have women surrender to them in the same manner that they surrendered to these men of Gor?


That's not exactly true. At least one of the main heroes of Gor (tarl Cabot)was a transplanted earthman. He was an outsanding exception to the balless masses,however. And all of the men on gor came from earth at various time periods,over thousands of years.

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 7:22:56 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..~smiles~


Point in fact..What does it all really matter?..If every woman out there is "really" controlling the relationship with her list of limits, and the persons involved within that relationship are happy?..Who else does it matter to?

There are a Great many things under the bdsm umbrella that personally I can not ever see myself being around or involved with..so what do i do?..I have my personal list, and I search for another that feels as I do or very close on order to that. Why?..because having things in common (including tolerance, which means not bashing and persecuting those that are doing the things that you don't like) usually is the best chance we have for sustained happiness.

I agree on alot of relationship levels and exchanges from both the bdsm culture and the gorean culture because they best reflect me. I don't believe either cultural movement is better than the other because it boils down to the individuals involved. With that you tend to gravitate towards others that share commonalitys.

I seek happiness, and I am what I am..having found a Master that allows me to have and be both these things is what it's all about. I can be kajira, I can be sub, I can be slave, I can be whatever someone else cares to label me as simply because my views do not resemble theirs. But take that away, call me nothing, and I'm still going to be happy because I am who I am.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 7:31:10 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

With that you tend to gravitate towards others that share commonalitys.


That's pretty much how I have always done it.

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 8:15:35 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		The certain bottom line is that anyone and everyone can walk out of any relationship, any time they want to.

Get real. If you are a strong dominant and are getting what you want out of your partner, it is only because you have been fortunate enough to find someone who has an interest in experiencing the level of dominance you are offering.

That you may be "strong" or that "you get what you are willing to put up with", is insignificant in the equation when compared to finding a compatible person.

It's no small coincidence that the same holds true the other way around. A submisive that may seem to be "getting over" on the dominant, is probably just fortunate to be with someone that doesn't have the need to have high levels of control.

The other bottom line, is that these sorts of threads exist, because it's really easy and somewhat fun, to mind-fuck other people's relationships.

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 8:17:00 PM   
wipmebeetme100


Posts: 198
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I have seen many threads that if you are a "softy" you'll tend to get much further within the sub/slave population........I just wanted everyone else's take on this subject



Why not just be who you are. If you are a softy...great then be a softy. You will attract the submissive who likes a softy. But by pretending to be a softy and attracting a submissive that wants a softy....you will not be finding a relationship that works for you. I myself tend to stay away from the "softies." I want someone who is going to demand my best...no matter how harsh they may need to be in order to have it.


Peace,
cathy

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 8:17:10 PM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		well said little one my hats off to your Owner for the training he has given you....im not trying to debate whom is really in control in the vast majority of TPE relationship in fact most of them are very similar to the Gorean lifestyle..........but to those whom claim they want TPE but yet there are limits set and not approached without the fear of either party gets their feelings hurt and it the realtionship dissolves...maybe what im tryin to get across is the facts that most of us share within a TPE relationship and the Gorean lifestyle.....ya have to admit there are a lot of similiarities...but in the same notes I can see limit setting in the approach to during the interview process but to be dead set against something by the sub/slave does empower that party in the relationship.......

Master Six

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 8:28:27 PM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The other bottom line, is that these sorts of threads exist, because it's really easy and somewhat fun, to mind-fuck other people's relationships.

THis has nothing to do with mind fucking little one this is fact......if you tell me that I cant cross a boundry then whom is in control you or I...again this is a personal view from my stand point...if I cant breach your wall then you are truly in control

Master Six

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 8:29:25 PM   
Wolfie648


Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

its the inconsistancy w/ rules in the newer Dom's.
or the hng's..


My off topic post:

(I know your profile says you are submissive so not all of this may apply.)

I have to admit I am guilty of this sometimes. However ;-) Most of the time it's because my slave (does a slave, having no rights, have the right to consistency?) has misundertood the context of the guidelines. Often these conflicts in direction arise after a deal of time has past 6mos. from when the first direction was given. Some of those times may have been because I did not give enough detail, but not all of them.

Neither of us is perfect as much as I would like to believe I am :-)


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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 8:30:55 PM   
Delvin


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Ill respond in your other post in a moment as well Master Six,

We tend to make our own problems, and this is one of those that won't be fixed easily or even with effort as it is now imbedded within the "Online" lifestyle. I say Online as I see it alot where it seems to be a dating game instead of an actual place to find someone to serve or be served at times.

A girl shows her body and says she will do anything and the undisciplined will drool and beg to get her, and then she knows she has them, sets the tone, the rules and walla, we have the very problem. Womans fault or Mans ?... will let each hash that one out, though for me, I see it as the Mans fault for even letting that type of thinking in to begin with.

The more these new girls see how to attract the "gentle dom" the more it becomes common place. This isn't a dating game where relationships are formed and you go off walking down the beach hand in hand.... or perhaps for some... it is.

Bend over, shut up and do as your told, don't like it ? leave, plenty of girls that are real and want this life. :)

D

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 8:34:19 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		bends over, shuts up and does as she is told


starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 8:38:42 PM   
Wolfie648


Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

The certain bottom line is that anyone and everyone can walk out of any relationship, any time they want to.


Under most circumstance yes. There are people chained/caged and locked up; not so easy then and I am referring to consenting adults here not victims of war or kidnappings or whatever other horrors are out there.

D (owner of j)

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 8:40:40 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

most believe it is a symbiotic relationship...ie one cant be without the other...I disagree, am I not a Master even if I dont own a slave/sub........then other say how the symbosis is balanced between the two...isnt a sub a sub without a Master or vice versa?


Actually, no you are not a "master" if you don't own a slave/sub, except for the master of yourself. I believe that is the whole point here. You are the master of your slave, you are not the master of the other sub/slaves here. While some masters (and all in the Gorean "realm") would allow you to master THEIR sub/slave, many others would knock your block off for taking such liberties with THEIR property.

As for the second part of the statement, the answer is "it depends". I have never identified myself as a slave although I am proud to call some slaves that I do know friends (the same goes for masters that I know). Some are submissive in all areas of their life, including outside their household. On the other hand, some have very important careers where they are far from submissive and certainly don't "defer" to others as they are the ones in charge. When a sub/slave is without master, they can still be either based on those perspectives.

In either case when not involved with someone else, in the most technical sense, we are simply people who seek to be a slave, or has submissive or dominent tendencies and desires or looking for someone to master.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72
where did the tolerance go and the mutual respect goto?


From your statements, it would seem that in *your* world there isn't any of either. Unless you count the slave "tolerating" anything their master chooses to do regardless of their own mental or physical capabilities. As for "mutual respect", I have yet to see you once offer any example of how a master should respect his slave, rather you present a very once sided view of respect. Sub/slaves give it and you take it. That is certainly not mutual respect.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72
You would hold your patner back by limit setting? kinda ironic isnt it?


Yet potentially damaging a partner by disregarding their limits is ok? Yes it is quite ironic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72
I thought this was about finding pleasure together without reservations? ..just trying to get an understanding here...

Master Six




That statement is a contradiction of all of your other statements. Perhaps an understanding would be more forthcoming for you if you didn't contradict yourself.

If it is about finding "pleasure together" then obviously, all slaves/subs will have "limits" on what they seek in someone. If they didn't, then only one of you is finding the pleasure, the other is just the means to master's end. While certainly I'm sure there are those who would want to be unhappy and miserable and unsatisfied and unfufilled for the rest of their lives, I am happy to say that I have never met someone like that.



PS to Bobbi, I KNOW how much you hate housework, and certainly I don't like it either, but saying "housework" is a hard limit? Admit it, you KNOW that is funny, if only because in most situations, unless there is maid service, and even in those situations where the work is shared, SOME housework needs to be done.

By the way, how is the search for a houseboy going? Any luck yet?


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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 8:53:18 PM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		Funny how you seem to come across to me all the time but it really dosent matter....about the way I keep slaves here ya go....they are property nothing more nothing less...would I not want a shiny sports car undamaged? Would I not pamper it and bring it to reveal its full potential....as far as the limits you stated how it would adversly affect their emotions.....this is about emotional growth not emotional decline...I have learned to Master my emotions, I know where my loyalities lie and with who they lie with...those that I own know the same thing..........and the Master of all remark is this all you can come up with in the retort im not trying to flame you but come on...this is as old as dirt and worn out with me a very long time ago...I dont need a slave to be a Master....how can I Master another if I have yet to Master myself and my surroundings...I dont think I own the world and its contents and every other mans slave/sub im not that ambigious........mental and physical capabilities are always kept in mind.......your mind is link to your emotions can be conquered if your mind is large enough to comprehend the greater meaning of what you involve yourself in......

the limit is the means to a Master's end places you in control of the relationship in the end.......how can you truly submit when in the end you are the controlling party?

Master Six

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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 9:29:23 PM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

men on gor came from earth at various time periods,over thousands of years.


The Priest-Kings did at one time bring a variety of people, plants & animals to help seed & populate Gor but the raids gave way to a primary purpose to acquiring women as slaves. The Priest-Kings rarely brought men to Gor. I have found many references that speaks of Earth men being very rare on Gor & many references to the disdain & disgust that Goreans had for earth men. I would assume that if these women of Earth were used for child bearing, that many Goreans would have been decendants from Earth-humans. It is all rather confusing & really not worth debate since it is all about works of fiction. I can only pull from what is written within these books & from the discussions in order to support my previous statement & question.

Calbot was enslaved & fought his way out of slavery several times. So I am guessing he just didn't have the stuff that men of Gor had because it was not mentioned that these Masters were repeatedly captured & escaped from slavery.

Jason Marshall, another man from earth. It is mentioned in the books he is taught that as an earth man he is weak and pathetic by comparison to the Gorean males & as a weakling he is only fit to be a sexual plaything to the free women.

I have also read from the Gorean books, but rather hush-hush, that by certain types of female domination practices... all men, either from Earth or from Gor could be slaves. So not just earth men were used as silk slaves, some of the men or Gor found their way into this service.

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 10/23/2005 9:31:30 PM >

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