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RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 9:40:59 PM

SirSix72

Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
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true suc as the story of the city of Tharna....but there was a moral to the story of how to rule with compassion not the whip.....I found it a very interesting story.......although Dorna the proud, I would have given anything to tie her up and beat the skin from her a**.........but it was a beautiful story that even a Tatrix wanted love and to submit to Tarl in the end

Master Six

_____________________________

I wish you well

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

Post #: 41

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 10:01:34 PM

JustaTop

Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
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This is why the cultural aspects are of interest- but I don't practice it MP.

No matter how you slice it,it's still only a mutual fantasy when the surounding culture does not support it. Any of these "slaves" can walk at any moment-and if the "Master" attempts to enforce his imaginary perogative-the force of the law will favor HER, not him.

I'm too reality based to get sucked into these things anymore.

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

Post #: 42

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 10:55:55 PM

gypsyeyez

Posts: 28
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline

Hmmmmm....

quote:

I have seen many threads that if you are a "softy" you'll tend to get much further within the sub/slave population.....

well this is definately not true of me that is for sure. As I wait to one day have a collar again I seek Dominant Females that are strong and I mean really strong I tend to be much of a High End Submissive and truly cannot surrender to anyone who is weak or wishy washy. I found out in the beginning learning under the Training of my first Mistress that without Her strength on issues it would have turned into or slowly become nothing but a vanilla relationship with a kinky sexual expierience... I believe in Power Exchange and this to me requires a Dominant be strong enough that if I screw up they can teach me enough of a lesson that I never wish to displease them again. This lesson is not always physical but 99% of the time in my present Family situation the 2 Dominants of the House teach me enough verbally or physchologically that I try my best not to mess up or displease Them even though I am not collared to Them.

Just my 2 Cents

_____________________________

~*~gypsy~*~

The delve into the depths of the soul of another one must first have the guts to search their eyes for hours...
for the eyes truly are the windows of the soul.

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 43

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 10:57:48 PM

gypsyeyez

Posts: 28
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline

Actually a little PS... If a Dominant Woman does not at some point tell me in Courtship that They are a Bitch or are Bitchy and have a set way They like things usually it never progresses, beyong casual friends.

_____________________________

~*~gypsy~*~

The delve into the depths of the soul of another one must first have the guts to search their eyes for hours...
for the eyes truly are the windows of the soul.

(in reply to gypsyeyez)

Post #: 44

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 11:24:41 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I have seen many threads that if you are a "softy" you'll tend to get much further within the sub/slave population....I just wanted everyone else's take on this subject

Define softy, because if being considerate of another's feelings and needs is soft, hence undomly or bad in your view, than I can only hope you find a hard-ass sub for your hard-ass domly ways.
I simply think that if you possess decent character and a caring nature you will do better in all relationships, not just D/s, but that is just my humble opinion. If you think that being a baddass is the tuwe way, than by all means cary on because I'm sure there are those subs who come begging for that kind of treatment, so that what we think/feel doesn't matter at all. Each one conducts his party/relationship in a way that works for him, and that is the best part of wiitwd, the freedom to be... M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 45

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 11:40:27 PM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

I have seen many threads that if you are a "softy" you'll tend to get much further within the sub/slave population....I just wanted everyone else's take on this subject
Define softy, because if being considerate of another's feelings and needs is soft, hence undomly or bad in your view, than I can only hope you find a hard-ass sub for your hard-ass domly ways.
I simply think that if you possess decent character and a caring nature you will do better in all relationships, not just D/s, but that is just my humble opinion. If you think that being a baddass is the tuwe way, than by all means cary on because I'm sure there are those subs who come begging for that kind of treatment, so that what we think/feel doesn't matter at all. Each one conducts his party/relationship in a way that works for him, and that is the best part of wiitwd, the freedom to be... M

That's about my feeling too. Desires seek their complement. I've said often that I don't "punish" since if a submissive doesn't actively seek to please me, I'd rather not have a D/S relationship with her. At times that's got me a "well, you really aren't really a dominant" which rates a shrug and "maybe not by your definition."

The bottom line is I don't change my expectations to match what someone wants. Frankly it's too much work and it doesn't have "legs."

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 46

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 11:47:55 PM

Phoenxx

Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline

There are two states to life. Death and growth. If you live with someone yes, you are going to grow and to change. Conform? What do you mean by that? If your saying that the Top is going to turn in what the bottom makes them... well are they not also helping the bottom grow into what they want their bottom to be?
We will all change in our lives. Sometimes, you will pick up habits and expression from your friends, your family, your loved ones and even your *gasp* slave.
My submissive is an RN and a damn great one. I have changed several things about myself as she, as a nurse, noticed some well.. dumb ass males things I was doing... Does that mean she is topping me? No, it means I took her advice under consideration and found it good. Just like when I go and see a doctor.
Without explaining what you mean by conforming … it’s hard to answer you. And if someone does change into a White Knight from the King Arthur myths… is it any worse then following Gor? As long as it’s what they both want…
Tony

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 47

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 11:49:05 PM

Phoenxx

Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline

quote:

That's not exactly true. At least one of the main heroes of Gor (tarl Cabot)was a transplanted earthman. He was an outsanding exception to the balless masses,however. And all of the men on gor came from earth at various time periods,over thousands of years.

Tarl was found to be of Gor descent later on wasn't he? Also, Tarl was against slavery, at least until Norman under went a very messy divorce. Then the character Tarl was taken as a slave himself and … so on

quote:

law of natural order has been around longer than the Gor series...John Normans work just revived something that was hundreds of years old and brought it back to life again

In several civilizations where there were no gender specific roles, the difference between men and women have almost disappeared. I recall reading that skeletons from Spartan had very little differences between gender. Also, look at our language. There are as many words for a society controlled by women as there are for those controlled by men. A naked mole rat society is ruled by a queen as is a beehive, and ant hill and… on and on…
Actually I recall where Norman walked away from the series because he was upset over the Gor subculture. How long was it between books? And for the record.. I was introduced to the books at #4… when it first was written.
I see no reason why not to take what you want from the series. But respect that others know it is a work of fiction and do not follow it.

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 48

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/23/2005 11:52:56 PM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenxx

My submissive is an RN and a damn great one. I have changed several things about myself as she, as a nurse, noticed some well.. dumb ass males things I was doing... Does that mean she is topping me? No, it means I took her advice under consideration and found it good. Just like when I go and see a doctor.

In the same way and for the same reason, Libby's changed some of my eating habits.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to Phoenxx)

Post #: 49

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/24/2005 12:54:57 AM

SirSix72

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Joined: 7/14/2005
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Tarl was taken as a slave many times such as in the book "The Outlaw Of Gor"...does this mean he was against slavery because if it? I dont think so he looked at both sides of the issues in the book if you read carefully....it was more about the way to rule not the idea of being against it...this was the way in Gor and widely accepted by himself and others....sure it is a work of fiction...I do respect that others dont share my views...but in the same token I am asked to believe that the power dynamic in a purely role playing society based upon the precept of kinky sex is more believable?Im not here trying to say one is better than the other or more believable....I merely state facts from my take over the last decade of experience.....if ya dont like thats ok as well....im not shoving anything down anyones throat other than the obvious as I would expect the same in return....this makes for a good debate...what I mean by conforming is the fact that this end to the play is the submissive limits......if she has the power to stop the play or lifestyle by the means of a safeword or limit then she truly sets the power dynamic in her favor dosent she? in no way am I saying that limits to play and safe words shouldnt be used but lets look at the obvious...the power shift...a Dominant is merely the facilitator in the dynamic.......I have and use temporary limits when I meet a potential sub/slave but as time progresses and the trust builds I remove them relying upon body language to gage the activity that we are engaged in...this is the power dynamic that gives the Dominant total control over the situation.....not vice versa.....if I can be anymore straight foward about the approach let me know and ill happily try and clarify it for you in a much simpler term..........now that ive said that lets look at the conforming thats going on: now that we have made our potential playmates feel safe by issuing them control of the situation through the setting of limits and safewords I see that many are stuck in a rut as to whom is in control of the power dynamic...now these limits and safewords have become common place through a lifetime of play together therefore the sub/slave does not relinquish control of the dynamic and twists the Domainat to become what she expects through the limits......such as dont touch my butt in public is my limit or dont call me a whore this is a limit......now if you would like to rebuke the stated feel free to do so

Master Six

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I wish you well

(in reply to Phoenxx)

Post #: 50

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/24/2005 4:22:36 AM

pinkpleasures

Posts: 1114
Status: offline

quote:

I have seen in many threads that the Dominant's are conforming to what is expected that a sub/slave's ideas of a what a good Dominant should be......In this sense are they actually modeling all Dominants to become something more accepted in the western romance novels........they we are to become something like knights in shining armor and if we dont conform to their standards then we are considered outcasts......I have seen many threads that if you are a "softy" you'll tend to get much further within the sub/slave population........I just wanted everyone else's take on this subject

Master Six

i have a recurring fantasy that a Dom saves me after my child was born...preventing the years of unhappiness i later experienced with my ex, and replacing it with joy. My child's birth and the pregnancy that preceeded it was a time of great sorrow for me...apart from the joy of having had my child. This is a "rescue" fantasy..and strangely, i have no fantasy in which i "save" myself.

That is a "white knight" fantasy, and i no longer require "saving". i think a relationship which begins with one in control of His life and the other in need of rescue has a low chance of succeeding. i have said before, i think the subbie/slave needs to be a mature adult with her life in order before seeking a Dom or Master...so for me, the "white knight" remains a fantasy...not something i want or need.

However i do seek a Man with Character and Honor, and i find many Men who contact me have little idea of wtf i am talking about. For them, it's a matter of "matching kinks" and for me that matters very little, as i would try to learn to please my Dom or Master == sexually, playfully, etc.

Part of what i seek in a Man is kindness and compassion...and i do not think such qualities weaken a Man. Rather i think such qualities are part of being mature, capable of forming a bond, and necessary (for me) in a D/s or M/s relationship. It is a large part of the basis i'd need to trust a Man.

So i guess what i am saying is a subbie or slave who does not relegate the "white knight" fantasy to her daydreams and is actually seeking to be rescued should be helped, by a friend, to find her way, but is in no position to become a collared subbie or slave.

That's my two cents.

pinkpleasures

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(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 51

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/24/2005 4:35:00 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

I know where you are comming from pink, I have similar values I seek in people who I like to get close to. Outside the lifestyle I used to and still do take the view with potential female friend; "I'd rather have you as a friend than a lover. I can get sex anywhere (well it's may be hard in the middle of the outback and you'll be happy to know that wild female camels definately do not turn me on), and who wants to shrew up a friendship with sex? Fact is that in the right time and the right place something may happen, if so its magick and if not the friendship is still strong."

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to pinkpleasures)

Post #: 52

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/24/2005 5:34:01 AM

fyreredsub

Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfie648

quote:

I brought this subject up as I have seen many submissive say they are the ones in control of the relationships through their wants and desires........im not saying by any means ignore the wants and desires....but there is a huge number of subs/slaves that are saying that if thier individual wants and desires arent met then they will simply walk.........viewing these statements on the boards leads me to believe that there is a power shift in the dynamics of any BDSM relationship

I think (strictly my opinion) the important word here is power (or power exchange). I define my relationship with my slave with the word power. i.e. Who has it?

I don't get along with playing with or having a BDSM relationship with 'subs' that have a long list of wants (including safe words - now don't get me wrong safe words definitely have a place - I just expect that _after_ a certain period of time if _my_ slave doesn't feel comfortable/safe/trusting enough to relenquish that safe word, they aren't for me.). To me that means they have the power in those specific areas (their list of wants). For me I want TPE - for others maybe they don't mind meeting that list of wants from their sub - PPE (partial power exchange). The words dom and sub don't even come into the conversation if you think of a BDSM relationship in terms of echanging power.

As long as the people involved are happy I say great.

D (owner of j)

PPE is a new term for me,is it a total power exchange for people who aren't 24/7 or is it for those w/ limits?

as to subs slaves walking if needs arent being met.....
as i am a sub b/c of newness but i am an unfullfilled slave b/c i'm not owned or collared (if this makes sense) or had met my match in my Master.

i have only talked to people o/l and not accepted any ones offer of anything at this point,so i am still free to walk if i feel whomever i am speaking to is a fool or we are mismatched for whatever reason.

should the time come when i am owned,tattooed, and collared,
i will have met the one who i compliment.... as he brings the woman in me to fruitation... that i am capable of becoming.... with his guidance,why would i want to leave? i would honor and be loyal to my commitment.

and imo..........slaves have to beg for release or trade-----------
subs have the option to walk and even then,
the contract should be renegotitated instead of the fast food mentality that does go on in relationships,
like ok..... lets go to the burger king (-cause you got tired of the clown)where you get ity our way.........when you've been eating at mickey dee's all along.

(i'm still java deficient so i might not make sense yet)

maybe i dont seek a softie conforming dom b/c i know i'll run the show and thats not what i want.........been there done that,wear the tshirt

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to Wolfie648)

Post #: 53

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/24/2005 5:52:59 AM

fyreredsub

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Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

i found tht when i was spending time on the top,
that the so called submissive men werent truly submissive when it came to being out of the bedroom.

they did not imo,seek TPE,

they just wanted to be chained, whipped, lick ass and get fucked w/ the strap-on..

the woman w/ the whip was interchangabe. which in many ways gave them the power,
if one is not sadistic enough for a masochist...he will go and find one that is,lol,

but in all reality i was topping from the bottom b/c my sub was training me to do what he wanted...............i was doing it to please my partner---------so its a catch 22---in the end it didnt work b/c neither was being who they truly are!! he was really dominate and i am really submissive.

of course i was not pleased in topping so maybe that had something to do w/it-but i am quite a power in my own right. but it wasnt what floats my boat.

i think finding a 'true' submissive male is just as rare as finding a woman that 'truly' wishes the TPE in every sense of the word.

a male slave has even more cognitive schemas to overcome in society than a woman does.

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

Post #: 54

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/24/2005 6:18:30 AM

fyreredsub

Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfie648

quote:

its the inconsistancy w/ rules in the newer Dom's.
or the hng's..

My off topic post:

(I know your profile says you are submissive so not all of this may apply.)

I have to admit I am guilty of this sometimes. However ;-) Most of the time it's because my slave (does a slave, having no rights, have the right to consistency?) has misundertood the context of the guidelines. Often these conflicts in direction arise after a deal of time has past 6mos. from when the first direction was given. Some of those times may have been because I did not give enough detail, but not all of them.

Neither of us is perfect as much as I would like to believe I am :-)

lol, allow me to explain,
i have been speaking w/ Masters. some are and others well they are legends in their own mind.

w/ this one in particular, he is considering 2 at the same time, ok ,so i'm dealing w/ that for the time being but he is new yet claims to be a Gorean.
so my lil cute ears perk up some and speak w/him. he is fairly articulate and makes me laugh.

so i notice over the course of a few days, his changing his rules over ending conversations on IM. now there comes a day,well night, when i say to him my children are asking me why am i on the puter so much and i wish to spend time w/ them after doing their homework w/ them. he says ok.......(.but guess what it really wasn't, i had several offlines in the morning and a missed call on cell!)

well i'm sorry but r/l kids take precedence to on o/l 'master' wannabe of mine. so he does his usual dont reply back crap- and i dont- i log off and have a great night w/ the family.....well lol the next day, haha, anyway, i wont go there.i do try to be polite even tho i am sarcastic lil' bitch

point being---i need a schedule daily, i am responsible for alot of people and activities....work....grad school/homeowrk.i dont deal w/ change-ecspecially when it confilcts w/ househol;d schedule

.i do understand as 2 people grow and mature in their relationship rules may need to be changed or adjusted.

there is a difference.

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to Wolfie648)

Post #: 55

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/24/2005 8:09:55 AM

Phoenxx

Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline

quote:

if she has the power to stop the play or lifestyle by the means of a safeword or limit then she truly sets the power dynamic in her favor dosent she? in no way am I saying that limits to play and safe words shouldnt be used but lets look at the obvious...the power shift...a Dominant is merely the facilitator in the dynamic.......I have and use temporary limits when I meet a potential sub/slave but as time progresses and the trust builds I remove them relying upon body language to gage the activity that we are engaged in...this is the power dynamic that gives the Dominant total control over the situation.....not vice versa.....

Wasn't Tarl was horrified in the very first book by slavery. He tried to set slaves free as I re-call. (I had a first printing copy of it and like a dumb ass let a friend have it to read... yup it's gone)
As for safewords... I do not allow safe words during punishment. However, I always allow them during play. The reason is that sometimes a woman's body is more sensitive then others. Or I could miss a visual clue in her body language. I don’t claim to be perfect all the time… after all I thought I made a mistake once… but I was wrong. ;-)
As well as I know my wife, there are days when what she needs or feels changes. Taking that into consideration is not in my opinion, giving her control, it’s being a Top that is aware of what is happening. It’s making sure our trust bond is not wrecked. Let’s face it, no one likes the same old same old every day… all the time. Sometimes I like my coffee with 2 sugar.. and sometimes with 3.
I see safewords and limits like the brakes of a car. It’s still the drivers choice to apply them. The fact the car has them doesn’t mean the car is in charge. It is a safety device. Of course not using them at the right time… can be a bad thing.
And after all… who gave the lil subbie the safeword? The Top … so… isn’t it your own power that is stopping you?
Tony

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 56

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/24/2005 8:38:00 AM

SirSix72

Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline

Yes Tarl was against slavery in the first book but after a while on the planet and a few books later he found it common place.......as far as safewords during sensation play you probably have a lot more experience in this dept. than I.......I am not a sadist and get my jollies out of spanking someone.....I tend to use the spanking as a negative reinforcement...there is a fine line between pleasure and pain in this aspect...I have seen a great many subs/slaves act out to get punished because the fact they are pain sluts...when this happens you can consider it topping from the bottom because now she is directing you as to the time frame for her to get her jollies by her negative behaviour to you........I dont use safewords I do read the body language of my slave and have spent much time harnessing my observations and fine tuning them........

Master Six

_____________________________

I wish you well

(in reply to Phoenxx)

Post #: 57

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/24/2005 8:50:03 AM

Wolfie648

Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

PPE is a new term for me,is it a total power exchange for people who aren't 24/7 or is it for those w/ limits?

I wondered if it was in common use or not - I've never seen it before so...it seemed an apt way to make the distinction, as I see it.

PPE (partial power exchange) by definition cannot be TPE either 24/7 or for 5 minutes (My coined abbr. (I think) so I get to make the rules on what it means ;-). And yes it applies to those with limits - I'll control this, you control that, or I'll control this today, tomorrow you control it - whatever works for the persons involved.

quote:

as to subs slaves walking if needs arent being met.....
as i am a sub b/c of newness but i am an unfullfilled slave b/c i'm not owned or collared (if this makes sense) or had met my match in my Master.

Perfect sense, and seemingly a reasonable way to introduce yourself to the world of BDSM.

quote:

should the time come when i am owned,tattooed, and collared,
i will have met the one who i compliment.... as he brings the woman in me to fruitation... that i am capable of becoming.... with his guidance,why would i want to leave? i would honor and be loyal to my commitment.

Because some of us can be real sob's ;-)

quote:

and imo..........slaves have to beg for release or trade-----------
subs have the option to walk and even then,
the contract should be renegotitated

Works for me :-)

Cheers,
D (owner of j)

_____________________________

Possibly.

(in reply to fyreredsub)

Post #: 58

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/24/2005 8:50:56 AM

UwishUcould2005

Posts: 1
Joined: 9/1/2005
Status: offline

I think it all goes back to being honest and open with what you truly want-desire. If a sub is being honest with their profile then a Dom should be able to tell based on that if there will be a good fit based on interest and likes. Of course no one knows about the physical until actually meeting but I do believe mental stimulation does play a large part. I do not feel anyone should conform to anothers believes just to get laid or have kink sex. In the end someone will be unsatisfied. There are different Doms and different subs. I think finding the one that is well suited for one another is what will in the end be the deep connection that so many seek. Where The Dom can control and the sub can submit. Trusting her Dom fully.

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 59

RE: Are Doms Conforming - 10/24/2005 9:02:57 AM

plantlady64

Posts: 755
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

I brought this subject up as I have seen many submissive say they are the ones in control of the relationships through their wants and desires........im not saying by any means ignore the wants and desires....but there is a huge number of subs/slaves that are saying that if thier individual wants and desires arent met then they will simply walk.........viewing these statements on the boards leads me to believe that there is a power shift in the dynamics of any BDSM relationship........

Hello SirSix72,
As it is discussed in the gorean threads BDSM & Gor have some basic differences. One point being most Gor Masters do not use pain in pleasurable ways.
In Gor pain is mainly for discipline, the structure of the house she serves in, and used as a weapon of domination and punishment.
In BDSM due to the fact the mix of pleasure and pain intermingle in a Dom/sub relationship, we on the bottom are indeed afforded some control.
That's what safe words are for.
We can control scene when the pain or mental play is at the point it's too extreme for us. We are entitled to have a list of things we will not participate in. These are called our hard lists. These are the tools of control most subs are afforded.
Most Dom's want their sub to have a fulfilling and gratifying scene when we play and do consider things a sub prefers. He has that choice to lead her in the things enjoys or the choice to with hold her desires as rare gifts for being good depending on the Master.

Overall that's the big BDSM difference between a sub and a slave. Most women (me included) that choose to become a full slave will only do so with a Master who's views and desires mimic their own path. That's the only point most BDSM people will become a full slave in a healthy relationship.

Even as a full slave I still have the option to non-renew or break my contract if I can't perform something like f**king animals and all the sudden my Master goes nuts and tries to require it.
But in reality, lets face it, so could a Gorean slave.

I think because we BDSM'ers have a much broader spectrum of pain for pleasure play the sub's may have control in the final word of limits she'll stand, but over all are obedient and want to be found under the will of a strong man leading her along.
I don't see a high average of manipulative subs, but rather well behaved ones in my community.
As far as taking control on a date or in living arrangements though the ladies are of the same basic mindset of your women if they are identifying themselves as a slave or well-behaved sub.
Now when we add bottoms to the mix it complicates things more. Bottoms are sensation players that are not submissive to the men they play with other than during clearly defined limit scenes.

Over all it's safe sane and consensual play. It has been since the 1970's. This does not mean the sub/slave is in control or topping from the bottom. They still accept the male has the control in the relationship & the final word. They just have the right to limit what permanent things happen to their bodies.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

(in reply to SirSix72)

Post #: 60

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