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RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 1:29:52 PM   
corsetgirl


Posts: 824
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

She has the right as a submissive to question what he is doing and how their relationship is progressing. As a submissive she has the right to change the structure of the relationship to better fit her needs.

But as a slave, didn't she give up those rights when she entered into a lifelong contract with her master?

Can you see where I would differentiate between the two styles of relationship?

CD


I can see your point of view on being slave and entering D's into having no rights; however, there are a lot of people who state even those dynamics are different.  There was also an agreement that the dom would be monogamous with the OP.  Isn't a dom supposed to have the integrity of honoring that contract, too?  If this dom wanted to have a poly relationship, he should have told her rather than finding out from someone else.  Her sister mentioned to the OP that this dom was flirting with her online and he was on another dating site. 

From what it appears, he was trying change his relationship to better fit his needs without even considering her feelings.  I believe that is called selfishness. 

< Message edited by corsetgirl -- 5/29/2008 1:31:07 PM >

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 1:35:27 PM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

So then as a submissive, she has the right to leave whenever she feels that he has not honored his agreement. She has the right as a submissive to question what he is doing and how their relationship is progressing. As a submissive she has the right to change the structure of the relationship to better fit her needs.

But as a slave, didn't she give up those rights when she entered into a lifelong contract with her master?

So... Then they were just in a D/s relationship and not a M/s one.

Can you see where I would differentiate between the two styles of relationship?

CD


But where are you going to draw the line?  Does she give up her right to physical and mental well being?  Can he decide that she no longer merrits health care?  Food?  At what point does his breach of the agreement become an issue?  There has to be a balance between upholding an agreement and leaving for self preservation.

Personally, I see the agreement as a two way street, I agree to uphold my end so long as he upholds his, by either party changing the terms and conditions (which he did by not maintaining the agreement to be monogamous) then the agreement is null and void. 

If I breeched out agreement I would expect to be released, if he negated any part of his part of the agreement I would at least expect a renegotiation of the original agreement and if negotiations fail then I would feel that we no longer had a covenant.

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 1:36:13 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Okay. Let me put it this way. 99 percent of the BDSM community practice D/s. A good percentage of those people cannot comprehend M/s.

M/s the way I see it.

Does that make the 99 percent correct? Does that make me correct?

Calling one a Master.. or a Dominant.. or a Top are all just labels. The same with bottoms, submissives and slaves. Is what you feel deep  inside yourself and how you show that to others... That's what makes you what you are.

Laws and local ordinances aside. Those don't change us how we feel about ourselves.

Again, if the OP identifies herself as a submissive and feels that her needs weren't being met, then she has the right to leave.

But if she identifies herself as a slave.. then from what she is deep inside, "hences the turmoil" she gave up those rights when she entered into the M/s contract " for life" as she puts it and only has the rights her Master chooses to give her. 


CD

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 1:36:53 PM   
somethndif


Posts: 136
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Walk.


I agree.  The idea that you have to ask for "release," and that you have to be "released," is bogus.  If you want to leave, leave. 

Who makes this shit up, anyway?

Dan

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 1:40:29 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		And calling someone elses point of view "shit" will win you no friends. No matter how much you cannot indentify with them.

CD

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to somethndif)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 1:45:25 PM   
corsetgirl


Posts: 824
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		Cruel:

Whether the OP in question is a submissive or slave should point to the terms of the contract.

Let's reverse the situation.  You have a slave and a contract was drawn up but yet, the slave failed to live up to the terms of the contract, you would release her in a heartbeat.  Perhaps you are correct on having this as an M's relationship.  I don't know but what I do know is that if one party FAILS to honor that contract, they would be gone!

If I cannot trust being with a dom in my relationship, then I don't want to be with him and I would not care whether I was a slave or sub.  If the dom cannot trust me, then I know he would feel the same way, too.

< Message edited by corsetgirl -- 5/29/2008 1:47:48 PM >

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 1:51:58 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

If you want to leave, leave.


That involves the use of common sense.


_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to somethndif)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 1:56:18 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

If you want to leave, leave.


That involves the use of common sense.





_____________________________



(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 2:26:04 PM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		CD: will you please address the issues (contractual) that were brought up? Or answer Omega's questions?
I'm also curious about what your definition of a master is, and what would keep an insecure man from calling himself master, and then telling his girl that now she has to stay with him forever?
At what point is a 'slave' free to 'take care of master's property' even if it means distancing her/him self from him/her?
I think you're on quite the slippery slope here. I'm interested in your ideas on this.

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 2:40:50 PM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

At what point is a 'slave' free to 'take care of master's property' even if it means distancing her/him self from him/her?



Awesome wording.

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to xxblushesxx)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 3:22:45 PM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		You have your mind set on the "contract' word. What I am speaking of is more then just a contractual obligation of some type. What I am speaking of is closer to what I would call the ideal "total submission". One that I see is practiced in my idea of a Master/slave relationship. I will quote something I had written in another post about someone who questioned submissives being call doormats or being extremely obedient. What is the difference..?

quote:

: CruelDesires

My beliefs about this topic. Your mileage may vary.

The way I see it. The slave has power over him/herself to choose who he/she gives over control to. Once they enter that type of hardcore relationship, the only other choice they truly have will be to ask release. In this world of laws and consequences, human beings have the right to leave an abusive relationship as they see fit. But even then, that right can be questioned if the truly feel that deep a need to submit control to someone else and really submerse themselves into that depth of submission.

he/she picks their Dominant carefully after fully accessing their intelligence and the ability for understanding his/her needs BEFORE he/she gives the Master power over them.

The smarter slave picks wisely and makes sure that the One that he/she chooses is worthy of that control and will have his/her best interests in mind.

Problems occur when they pick the wrong Master and he uses them for his own purposes, yet doesn't keep their safety and well being in mind.

A lot of newcomers don't know enough information about the lifestyle and choose someone who is not worthy of being a Master to a small dog, let alone a human being.

My solution to those slaves who are looking for a Absolute Power Exchange relationship?

Find a Master who values their property and makes sure their toys and personal items are well taken care of by Him. Find a Master who will listen to their slave when they have recommendations about the upkeep of His property and personal belongings. Find an Intelligent Master who is not so wrapped up in his own ego so that he does not want to learn to be a better Person as he matures and gets wiser in the lifestyle. Find an Honorable Master who truly is worthy of that title.

Good luck and I see only a select few out of all the ones who claim or wear the title that we all call Master.

 
CD


There will be plenty of Men and Women who say they are allowed to wear the master title. Does that make them a master? I can call myself a duck. Does that make me a duck?

As there will plenty of people who call themselves a slave. But in the way I understand M/s, once a slave decides to take a decision into their own hands like the Op has... and leaves the relationship "no matter what was written or contracted down" they are no longer slaves but are submissives. If they were slaves, they would have given up that right to make that decision when they gave over Absolute power to the master.

Is that master deserving of that power? Most of them arent IMO. And some will abuse the power and use it to their own ends either foolishly or selfishly.

There is no "slippery slope" as you put it. These are my beliefs and the way I view things. I believe that Tops and Dominants and Masters are all different and have differing definitions. Just lumping them all under the word "Master" does our lifestyle a disservice. I wish CM would change the room heading or add an "Ask a Dominant" section as I don't see them as the same.

CD




_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to OmegaG)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 4:16:26 PM   
MstrVik


Posts: 122
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

As there will plenty of people who call themselves a slave. But in the way I understand M/s, once a slave decides to take a decision into their own hands like the Op has... and leaves the relationship "no matter what was written or contracted down" they are no longer slaves but are submissives.



I don't think it's as clear cut as that. If you look at the part of the Dominant in the case of the OP here; it is also his responsibility to evaluate and develop the mindset of the sub/slave as well as taking practical measures to make the situation a reality - it appears to me that he failed to do both. It is still perfectly possible that the OP could be a good slave to someone else - or, yeah, a good submissive. It's not really possible to properly evaluate someone's disposition via the internet, and much less without being able to ask a lot of direct and personal questions. -

Absolute power? Well, obviously there are clear limits to that in today's society, though a lot of things are possible. Nevertheless, power is not simply something that's handed over - though that is an important part of it - it is also something that is taken. - It's still something that is agreed - and fully understood - by both parties.

As they say, it takes two to tango...   

_____________________________

~ sometimes a spanking is just a spanking...

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Release request denied - 5/29/2008 4:46:50 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Never mind.  It's just banging my head.

Cali

< Message edited by CalifChick -- 5/29/2008 4:47:17 PM >

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Release request denied - 5/30/2008 2:53:07 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

There will be plenty of Men and Women who say they are allowed to wear the master title. Does that make them a master? I can call myself a duck. Does that make me a duck?

As there will plenty of people who call themselves a slave. But in the way I understand M/s, once a slave decides to take a decision into their own hands like the Op has... and leaves the relationship "no matter what was written or contracted down" they are no longer slaves but are submissives. If they were slaves, they would have given up that right to make that decision when they gave over Absolute power to the master.

If you define a slave as being owned property (by consent), then one can reasonably argue that her choosing to leave the relationship means she's no longer a slave; agreed.  So yes, she's inherently submissive but she's also a mature adult, as one would hope of anyone consenting to be another's slave.
 
What I find disturbing in your presentation and arguments is a consistent theme that you sanction leverage over consent.  And you're sanitising yourself by casting doubt on everyone else's definitions of M/s; at least, those who own through consent.
 
Master/slave is a powerful relationship dynamic.  But it wouldn't feel empowering if the girl were trapped; not to ME.  But having her serve and obey me through choice - THAT'S empowering! 
 
As others have said, I also wouldn't wanna own a slave who wasn't happy and fulfilled being my property - so she *always* has the choice to leave....  Or, as you put it yourself, she " has the rights her Master chooses to give her".


quote:

Is that master deserving of that power? Most of them arent IMO. And some will abuse the power and use it to their own ends either foolishly or selfishly.

And most might think exactly the same of you.  Forcing a slave to stay, whether by physical barrier or coersion/leverage/manipulation/word-play/mind-games etc, might also constitute a selfish abuse of power, no?

quote:

There is no "slippery slope" as you put it. These are my beliefs and the way I view things. I believe that Tops and Dominants and Masters are all different and have differing definitions. Just lumping them all under the word "Master" does our lifestyle a disservice. I wish CM would change the room heading or add an "Ask a Dominant" section as I don't see them as the same.

Your beliefs read an awful lot like the "labels" you were bagging back up the page.  While I also appreciate the differences between Master/Dom/Top (or slave/sub/bottom), one hardly needs a separate Forum for each and all.  That's what you're given a brain for; to discern context and post your opinion accordingly.  There are exponentially more shades than black or white....
 
Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Release request denied - 5/30/2008 6:28:34 AM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

You have your mind set on the "contract' word. What I am speaking of is more then just a contractual obligation of some type. What I am speaking of is closer to what I would call the ideal "total submission". One that I see is practiced in my idea of a Master/slave relationship. I will quote something I had written in another post about someone who questioned submissives being call doormats or being extremely obedient. What is the difference..?

quote:

: CruelDesires

My beliefs about this topic. Your mileage may vary.

The way I see it. The slave has power over him/herself to choose who he/she gives over control to. Once they enter that type of hardcore relationship, the only other choice they truly have will be to ask release. In this world of laws and consequences, human beings have the right to leave an abusive relationship as they see fit. But even then, that right can be questioned if the truly feel that deep a need to submit control to someone else and really submerse themselves into that depth of submission.

he/she picks their Dominant carefully after fully accessing their intelligence and the ability for understanding his/her needs BEFORE he/she gives the Master power over them.

The smarter slave picks wisely and makes sure that the One that he/she chooses is worthy of that control and will have his/her best interests in mind.

Problems occur when they pick the wrong Master and he uses them for his own purposes, yet doesn't keep their safety and well being in mind.

A lot of newcomers don't know enough information about the lifestyle and choose someone who is not worthy of being a Master to a small dog, let alone a human being.

My solution to those slaves who are looking for a Absolute Power Exchange relationship?

Find a Master who values their property and makes sure their toys and personal items are well taken care of by Him. Find a Master who will listen to their slave when they have recommendations about the upkeep of His property and personal belongings. Find an Intelligent Master who is not so wrapped up in his own ego so that he does not want to learn to be a better Person as he matures and gets wiser in the lifestyle. Find an Honorable Master who truly is worthy of that title.

Good luck and I see only a select few out of all the ones who claim or wear the title that we all call Master.

 
CD


There will be plenty of Men and Women who say they are allowed to wear the master title. Does that make them a master? I can call myself a duck. Does that make me a duck?

As there will plenty of people who call themselves a slave. But in the way I understand M/s, once a slave decides to take a decision into their own hands like the Op has... and leaves the relationship "no matter what was written or contracted down" they are no longer slaves but are submissives. If they were slaves, they would have given up that right to make that decision when they gave over Absolute power to the master.

Is that master deserving of that power? Most of them arent IMO. And some will abuse the power and use it to their own ends either foolishly or selfishly.

There is no "slippery slope" as you put it. These are my beliefs and the way I view things. I believe that Tops and Dominants and Masters are all different and have differing definitions. Just lumping them all under the word "Master" does our lifestyle a disservice. I wish CM would change the room heading or add an "Ask a Dominant" section as I don't see them as the same.

CD





I agree with you, especially the part that you quoted from another thread, it is essential for a slave to know who she is giving herself to, she should make sure that the person that she is giving that control to will match her needs for safety and happiness.

It occured to me one day that I can say at this moment that I don't have to have limits or safewords in my relationship because his limits so closely align my own that I know that whatever he chooses to do will fall within my comfort zone.  He also knows me well enough that safewords are superfluous.

However, he would be the first to agree that if he developed a mental illness or suffered a head injury that would cause a lack of ability to think rationally that I need to evaluate my safety and if I can't be safe with him then I have an obligation to leave. 

I know that this is a bit more drastic then the OPs dilema.  But do you really suggest that a person who gives consent when one option is presented has to continue to submit when the core basis for that concent has changed?  I think that absolute power (or the ability to envoke that power) only can exsits when the Master himself remains constant to the agreement.  Why should a slave be held to a higher standard then the Master?

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Release request denied - 5/30/2008 8:07:42 AM   
simplyfyre


Posts: 54
Status: offline 		greetings darkeangelique,

i had a release request 'ignored' for a good while once...SOOOO,

I took back my freedom and those that said i was a 'runaway' be damned.(ecspecially after a FM told me to self-release).

i've also been released out of the blue-lol, i still have His apology letter he sent ---and if one wonders why he couldnt 'make me mind'...but i digress here.

Nothing lasts forever except dying....and staying in a relationship that you dont want to be in will kill your soul..

say goodbye and accept the consequences of your choice cause If you do not respect a man how can you submit to him?  thats another story in itself

Good luck

Be Well
Fyre

edited to fix op name

< Message edited by simplyfyre -- 5/30/2008 8:08:34 AM >

_____________________________

I know of no language in which the truth may be spoken. The truth can be seen, and felt, and known, but I do not think it may be spoken. Each of us learns it, but none of us, I think, can tell another what it is. 8 145



(in reply to darkeangelique)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Release request denied - 5/30/2008 8:28:05 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Cruel Desires
 
If you are set in your thinking and speaking.
This girls Master nullified the contract by breaking it.  When the parametres alter due to no fault of the slave - when he wishes or she feels held - in her words 'as nilla'.  Therefore she is not bound to him?
 
He broke the agreement firstly, not her.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to CruelDesires)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Release request denied - 5/30/2008 8:34:14 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		Quick reply:

If you want to leave and can leave, you should. I wouldn't contemplate on it much beyond that.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 118
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