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RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 4:53:48 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: steviemichael

Sir isint it also that in the 21th centuary of the internet (such has this medium) communcationand therfore despite its inperfection as like our human condtion can also lie or if not lie then most of what is stated is subjective.

I've just read your statement over three times and it doesn't make sense to me.
You appear to state that in this medium (forum posting on the internet) statements seem to be subjective.
Well isn't reality as a whole simply a consensus of subjectivities?
Even if, as the scientific model would have us believe, even if we could set up an experiemnt  under controlled conditions, in order to 'prove' something, in effect all we do is to support a statement that the phenomena occurred more significantly than it would have done so by chance.
Objective TRUTH? No such thing.
Subjective reality? Yes; it abounds. And I would have to chuick out most of those people I respect if I had only to keep the 'sane' ones in. Wiiliam Blake, Rothko, James Joyce, Sylvia Plath, Janis Joplin.....you see wher I am going with this????
I celebrate diversiy man, in all its subjective glory......that's my point.


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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 5:10:51 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		Questions for OP?

I am guessing that you have had bad experences...or are you new and just naturally cautious...?

How long are you taking to get to know someone before you seek to become involved?

If this has been an issue in the past then perhaps you need to re-evaluate your get acquainted process.

Take longer, go slower...or do you have the tendency to second guess yourself when you come upon something that seems "off"?

Finally, do you have these terms well defined for yourself?
What does in good health mean to you personally?
Does this mean you wish to exclude people who do not match your definition or does it mean you just want the full picture?


My personal take on your query is that nothing can take the place of open communication.
Don't take up with a partner you don't trust and if someone wishes to hide something having a piece of paper that declares them as being physically/emotionally fit will not prove anything.

Many people share their STD/STI test results but to obtain someone's entire medical history does in fact seem excessive (and remember if you did have that information it is likely you won't posses the knowledge to correctly interpret the information).







(in reply to steviemichael)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 5:16:57 AM   
brissub30


Posts: 3
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: steviemichael

The question inplys one should do a background check ask persmission for medcial  records having acess to personal data  brith cert  and even a passport etc. do you think that is unreasonable ?
Since you would also would be  prepared to allow the person concern access.

This question really disturbs me. We have excellent lagislation in place to guard against discrimination in terms of ethnicity, gender and religion. We have excellent legislation (I speak for here where I know best: in the UK) allowing access to those with learning differences (note my language) and physical disability. That is to say we are supposed to be as facilitative in our attitudes as we are in our physical maintainance of access via ramps stair lifts and so forth.
AND YET WE STILL CANNOT EDUCATE AGAINST IN BUILT PREJUDICE.
Yes caps lock because I am shouting. I am of the anti-psychiatry movement. I, for one, celebrate divesirty in my life and my attitude to others. God forbid the day when we reduce others to a diagnostic screening and a label that follows them around has a hardoutcome paper trail for the rest of their lives.
Try asking your original question please of anyone who has tried swiftly to cross the gender barrier both in terms of orientation and emplyment or housing.
If we as members of the bdsm community cannot celebrate diversity without falling back on recursive thinking and defensive conformity then it is a sad world.
All a test shows is that the person turned up for the test. Sorry: the rsponsibility for discrimination lays with you my friend.




Ah, the irony  :)

Apparently one way to test people for insanity is to ask a question on the collarme chat boards...

(in reply to Prinsexx)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 5:17:17 AM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		If you check my medical records, you learn I have arthritis. What exactly does that tell you about me aside from I have a lot of pain medication in the house and I am less likely to play heavily on a rainy day since the humidity bothers me?
My bipolar disorder is not treated, becasue it doesnt need to be in my case. But, it is still there.
My allergies arent there, becasue they have no reason to be treated, they are minor.
My likes and dislikes arent there

So, aside from my one ailment, you learn nothing through gatehring al my information that you dont learn from a sit down conversation with me.

However, you gain respect from the conversation, and you will probably be mistrusted for even the implication that you want to see my medical records to verify me.

DV


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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 5:44:19 AM   
leakylee


Posts: 747
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		now i didnt take the time to read all the responses so this was more than likely covered. i happen to be one of the fruiter pies in the mix, but i am upfront about it. as i am with the overall condition of my health. there is no way in hell anyone is getting access to my medical info. my parents dont even have that access. i would be derned if i would share it with anyone else. to be honest if a person is unhealthy enough mentally to hide a defect i doubt it is something one would truly want to tangle with besides it will pop up in due course.

nothing can replace time, patience, and plain old face to face interaction.

lee

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RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 6:34:59 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		I have worked with, and thought hard about the accepted definitions of abnormality. These are:
Statistical deviation

Social norm violation

Maladaptive behavior

Personal distress

Deviation from an ideal

Medical disorder

Now I'm not going to be presumptive and talk about anyone else here
I am going to talk about myself in relationship to these well-wor criteria.
In terms of statistical deviation I am in the top two percent of the population with regard to intelligence (actually it I might be higher, the problem is finding a valid test).
In terms of social norm violation; I have been married three times and divicred. This is because I like and consent to pain, restraint and a certain amount of degredation not forthcoming in those marriages.
In terms of maladaptive behaviour: I have a limited diet, prefer to sleep during the day, and am socially an extreme extravert.
In terms of personal distress: the world distresses me. War, crime, dishonesty, ignorance, poverty. I don't put the news on the television any longer and I don't buy newspapers becasue I find the world distressing. in terms of deviation from the ideal: I have a far from perfect face, it's kind of Romany looking and the Nazi party world have no doubt have put me in a work camp because of my nose.
In terms of a medical disorder; I have arthritis and yesterday got diagnosed with high blood pressure. Because I was a premature baby incubated for many months I do not have an inherent sleep pattern and therefore sometimes ask for prescriptions of sleeping tablets or self medicate with melatonin.
There is a vein of bi-polar disorder running in my family and am taking part in an intensive twin study programme at the moment which is researching this. My publisher knows I write to keep me sane.

I tick ALL the boxes for abnormality. So am I to be written off because of this?
According to people who have met me I am a good girl.... true friends say I am barking mad.




< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 5/26/2008 6:40:24 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 6:53:11 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: steviemichael

Sir isint it also that in the 21th centuary of the internet (such has this medium) communcationand therfore despite its inperfection as like our human condtion can also lie or if not lie then most of what is stated is subjective.

I've just read your statement over three times and it doesn't make sense to me.
You appear to state that in this medium (forum posting on the internet) statements seem to be subjective.
Well isn't reality as a whole simply a consensus of subjectivities?
Even if, as the scientific model would have us believe, even if we could set up an experiemnt  under controlled conditions, in order to 'prove' something, in effect all we do is to support a statement that the phenomena occurred more significantly than it would have done so by chance.
Objective TRUTH? No such thing.
Subjective reality? Yes; it abounds. And I would have to chuick out most of those people I respect if I had only to keep the 'sane' ones in. Wiiliam Blake, Rothko, James Joyce, Sylvia Plath, Janis Joplin.....you see wher I am going with this????
I celebrate diversiy man, in all its subjective glory......that's my point.




celebrating diversity is fabulous in the abstract - but i wouldn't want to have a relationship with any of these people!!!               But  i am not into drama in my everyday life.

I'm also not into diseases that could kill me - and yes, these diseases can kill , and quickly. I know a doctor whose daughter trusted her instincts, had sex with a man - one time- and died of AIDS not a year later. So yes, if the OP wants written proof that potential sex partners are disease free, then they should make a date to go get tested together.
For myself, i have to admit that was the last thing from my mind when i met my Sir, so, my bad!

People lie about fatal , catchable diseases all the time - probably not from any malicious intent, but from fear of loneliness, undersirability, and maybe a bit of anger. They think (in the land of wishful thinking) that once won't hurt their partner. And typically, they are proved wrong.

I'm not saying everyone needs to rush off to the health clinic as part of a first date, but a little caution isn't wrong either.  You also might consider the fact that about a third of the people with HIV/AIDS don't know that they have the virus. Make you think, huh?

(in reply to Prinsexx)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 7:05:05 AM   
MasterDragon1963


Posts: 51
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		I think the balance of information is determined by the relationship. Put in a little, get back a little. Obviously in the behining stages, personnal information is limited, theres just too many dumb asses out there. Get to know someone first. Anyone who hands over security sensative information like SSN, banks, and such right after a couple of meetings is asking for trouble. In my case which is a 24/7 TPE M/s, I told my slave in advance I didnt want any information until after giving her a consideration collar, which was given only after she asked for it. She knew what I expected, and only in stages, simple information at first with more personnal information just before the permanent collar. I think that a background check is valid for both persons. If there are ANY red flags, they need to be addressed in one form or another. I dont recommend starting a relationship with the idea of dealing with matters later. Open, honest, direct communication from both sides is the best way I have found. Build a solid foundation, and you can build after that should last with proper care.

Master Dragon

(in reply to steviemichael)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 7:17:13 AM   
ShadesofTaboo


Posts: 11
Joined: 10/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: steviemichael

The question inplys one should do a background check ask persmission for medcial  records having acess to personal data  brith cert  and even a passport etc. do you think that is unreasonable ?
Since you would also would be  prepared to allow the person concern access.





There's a simple way to find out if they are mentally healthy. Just ask them if they are crazy.  A sane person will typically answer ...HELL YES, I'm crazy.  If they try and convince you that they are perfectly sane, and that s everyone ELSE is nutters, run!  Yes, I'm joking.  Well, sorta.

As for giving out too much information, even a phone number (if precautions aren't taken) can be used to acquire a persons home addreess and full name.  I know that when I needed to verify credit on someone for work, one of the tools I used was a simple reverse number trace to get the person's name and address to crosss-refernce against the application.   I tend to agree that offering and giving too much personal information is an extremely BAD idea.


(in reply to steviemichael)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 7:24:50 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12


People lie about fatal , catchable diseases all the time -

I feel that this is a  subjective judgment rather than a fact. But it serves to 'prove' my point very well. Most of us live out of our subjective experience of the world. usually, it is he'she who can shout loudest, has more resources/knowledge/wealth whose voice is most heard.
That's just a political viewpoint of mine by the way.
Definitions of madness v sanity, healthy v unhealthy, normal v abnormal, straight v kinked even. are definitions all of which are based on cultural consensus. I'm no different, in as much, as it is only experience, travelling, education and interaction with others that has and will continue to shift my perspective.
And of course the presence of a dominant who is educated, travelled, and experienced enough  to allow me to rest my case.
Edited to add: I am not disputing the fact that HIV/aids exists. far from it. I have worked with sufferers. I insist on safe sex. I do not share your view on HIV/AIDS.
Actually I don't share many of the culturally accepted 'truths'. I find I am safer relying on my instinct, intuitionm communication and faith. These are just some of the tools that keep me out of the world of fear and scarcity.


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 5/26/2008 7:31:00 AM >

_____________________________

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Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
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To my stalker:
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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 7:31:02 AM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		My medical records would show I have had cancer, surgeries, broken bones, treated for a long stand back injury, includes a report from one doctor who decided to say their was nothing wrong with my back  that is was psychosomatic instead based on the fact I am able to lift my hands over my head(yes even some doctors can be total nutcases ) ..  following  records argued against his report saying  that there is definite evidence of injury and not all in my head.
There will be records I went to the doctor about depression attributed to chemical and hormonal changes related to stress work hours(not enough daylight exposure and due to a hysterectomy ..so yes their are periods in my life I was not of totally sound mind and good health ..... how would knowing that information help you if  I gave  to you????  Do you have a medical degree to understand how that might effect me today???  Is the fact that I seeked out help for depression  --- mean I am of unsound mind to you or am today?   

I was seeing one Dom very briefly ... I did not need medical records to know he suffers from alcoholism,... the telltale signs were  evident  his drinking habits ..the paranoia...extreme emotional reactions to events... even if he had drank very little in my presence past experience around other alcoholics would have lead me to suspect it...but his behaviour alone   even if I had not known it was related to alcoholism would be enough for me to say this is not somebody I wish to be around ..that it would not make for a healthy relatiohship to be a submissive in  and that playing with him  is not a good idea... I don't need medical records to tell me that...there are many alcholics who have never went to a doctor about their alcholism .. and it does not make them any less of an alcholic  and would in fact be more disconcerning as they may not yet accept they have a problem... Medical records will not help me learn who is in denial ....they may cause me to have unfounded discriminations about a person  making me reject them because of my own lack of medical knowledge so can be a liability having access to 

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 7:38:51 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadesofTaboo

quote:

ORIGINAL: steviemichael

The question inplys one should do a background check ask persmission for medcial  records having acess to personal data  brith cert  and even a passport etc. do you think that is unreasonable ?
Since you would also would be  prepared to allow the person concern access.





There's a simple way to find out if they are mentally healthy. Just ask them if they are crazy.  A sane person will typically answer ...HELL YES, I'm crazy.


Witicism aside: what else do we really have to go on except a person's word? Data protection is so fierce, at least here in the UK, that it is virtually impossible to obtain information about a person's number plate least of all their medical records. Of course if one has enough money to pay a private investigaotor, then money will buy their less than scrupulous services.
However, I support data protection. Most data leaks occur because of so called 'mistakes'....like so many thousand pieces of information based on our Chiod Benefit details went 'missing' here in the UK.
Yes it's to do with a person's word at the end of the day.....and there is a seriousness to what you say that amounts to this: if I have insight into my own state of mind then I am more sound, a great deal safer, than someone who has no insight, who is psychotic or has a mental illness from which there is no respite that they might get that insight or over view.
Then again: medication and treatments radically improve year after year. It's possible for many of those who have spent thirty years in a living hell of mental illness to find relief from that hell by the use of present day anti-psychotics.


_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 8:02:32 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

My medical records would show I have had cancer, surgeries, broken bones, treated for a long stand back injury, includes a report from one doctor who decided to say their was nothing wrong with my back 
[/quots]
This is a poweerful point. There is rarely consensus even within the medical profession itself. This is why patients ask for a second opinion.
Of course there are variations in diagnosis, and perhaps we could allow for this given the complaxity of certyain conditions. BUT even the nurse who took my blood pressure yesterday blamed the dif=gital equipment and went back to 'the old fashioned' method of taking my pulse. Lw and behold; she obtained a different, far lower eeading.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001
how would knowing that information help you if  I gave  to you???? 

It doesn't necessarily help me at all. It might create feelings of shock, embarassment, sadness, compassion. It might make me change my opinion of you all together. This is very strange isn't it? No other information rattles us more about a person other than tem having acriminal record or perhaps having been bankrupt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001
I did not need medical records to know he suffers from alcoholism,...  even if I had not known it was related to alcoholism would be enough for me to say this is not somebody I wish to be around ..

This is also a powerful statement. IMPO medical evidence partially serves to make us feel less sure in our experience. I have sought for years to get my son diagnosed. I have resorted to printing off articales from the internet which clearly indicate he has mental health issues. I have taken advice from private specialists. ALL to no avail. I get that: you are only his mother look.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001
Medical records will not help me learn who is in denial ....  

Indeed. How the hell would I know? about my own denial or indeed what lies behiond the veil of truth for anyone else. We are not at choice about denial.

This is a huge debate. You made some very important points there in my opinion.


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 5/26/2008 8:04:43 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 8:05:50 AM   
MidMichCowboy


Posts: 665
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind and in good health ?

An investment of time is the only answer I know.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 8:09:30 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12


People lie about fatal , catchable diseases all the time -

I feel that this is a  subjective judgment rather than a fact. But it serves to 'prove' my point very well. Most of us live out of our subjective experience of the world. usually, it is he'she who can shout loudest, has more resources/knowledge/wealth whose voice is most heard.
That's just a political viewpoint of mine by the way.
Definitions of madness v sanity, healthy v unhealthy, normal v abnormal, straight v kinked even. are definitions all of which are based on cultural consensus. I'm no different, in as much, as it is only experience, travelling, education and interaction with others that has and will continue to shift my perspective.
And of course the presence of a dominant who is educated, travelled, and experienced enough  to allow me to rest my case.
Edited to add: I am not disputing the fact that HIV/aids exists. far from it. I have worked with sufferers. I insist on safe sex. I do not share your view on HIV/AIDS.




Ummm  -  what is my "view" of AIDS?

(in reply to Prinsexx)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 8:16:16 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12


People lie about fatal , catchable diseases all the time -

I feel that this is a  subjective judgment rather than a fact. But it serves to 'prove' my point very well. Most of us live out of our subjective experience of the world.



I work in the medical field - the er, and most recently the or (operating room). One of the questions we routinely ask is if the prospective victim ...  er, patient ... has an infectious disease or illness. Not infrequently the answer is no, until the doc. gets there and tells us differently.  From my admittedly skewed view of the world, people don't like to admit they have a long term disease, be it hepatitis, AIDS or pink-spotted purple river fever. It happens often enough that i noticed - and i am about the most oblivious person in the world. I have to be hit across the head to notice anything like that. i don't have statistics, so in that regard, it is subjective, but, i don't think it would be hard to prove.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 8:23:56 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		If a woman insisted on seeing my medical and psychological history right away,  I would diagnose her as paranoid.

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- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 8:24:30 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		Pfft.  Normal (i.e. Sane) is what a person is UNTIL you get to know them.  If I ever actually came to know a truly sane person, I think I'd run.  Perfection is intimidating, sanity is boring, and entropy (illness) is the only constant.  (there's that tongue in cheek again...I'm going to start getting accused of doing chew at this rate!)


(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 8:31:00 AM   
MladyHathor


Posts: 510
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline 		Ok I am going to take a different approach here---and I am amazed at some of the reactions as some of these people have posted n the past about getting a copy of blood work that shows they are disease free-----gees--
 
As has been stated---I think you  may be asking for a tad too much, however, I do believe that some validation when appropriate is a good idea---I am a woman alone with a lot to lose---when I get close to meeting someone, you can damn well bet I ask for a DL number or a copy faxed with SS blocked out---and I will run a background check---I do that for ANYONE that comes in close contact with My family on a personal level---ok so I guess I am a freak of sorts, but the good ones have no issue in complying

As for medical testing---yep Iwant and will provide current testing ( IF there is a chance of intimacy somewhere)--that states I am disease free--even with condoms in the picture--and I see nothing wrong with that--I also ask about smoking, BP and I prefer HWP---as they may be a tad healthier---its sad that we have to come to that but life is what it is--
 
and charming conversations can be had just as easily with pedophiles as non--I am very careful.
 
As for BC and others--well that's a tad over the top---and for a mental health guarantee? There is none there, however chats about the past can often expose patterns.
 
I am not a snob and I am sure this will get Me flamed, but I have way too much to lose--not to be SSC.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: How do you find out?if a person is of sound mind an... - 5/26/2008 9:12:50 AM   
ThundersCry


Posts: 892
Status: offline 		Flip a coin...

(in reply to steviemichael)
Profile   Post #: 40
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