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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/1/2008 7:29:43 PM

burningdesires47

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

About being passive. Ok, so many Dominant women like to hunt for their prey... what do you think the more exciting kill would be, taking down a 10 point buck after stalking the woods all morning, or a dumbstruck deer staring at her headlights and being taken out by her volvo at 40 miles an hour?

Not the car... ANYTHING BUT THE CAR!!!!!

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/1/2008 7:44:46 PM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

About being passive. Ok, so many Dominant women like to hunt for their prey... what do you think the more exciting kill would be, taking down a 10 point buck after stalking the woods all morning, or a dumbstruck deer staring at her headlights and being taken out by her volvo at 40 miles an hour?

I think submissive men who have been in successful relationships with bonafide, kinky, femdom ladies should explain this to their unsuccessful kinky sub brothers more often. There's a simple fact that seems to escape many single, inexperienced submissive men: Femdoms are women, and they happen to be kinky. There are two parts of this:

1) Femdoms are women -- first and foremost. Get to know the lady behind the femdom first. ALL about her.
2) She happens to be kinky. What does this mean? Really, what does it mean?

Number 2 is tricky. Here's the problem. Submissive men have an idea in their head that a femdom is like the femdom in their fantasies. Or, the femdom they see in porn. This is an ideal built by MEN. Submissive men need to understand that underneath every femdom (who is naturally, honestly, organically sadistic and/or kinky) is a woman who is that way for a reason. And no, it's NOT the same reasons the women in porn are kinky - it's not just some core, irrational, insatiable bitchiness that starts and ends with her pussy and wanting to treat a man like a worm....that's the fantasy.

The reality is that we are all different, and we came to this place in different ways -- but we are all MOTIVATED to be kinky for a reason. What is that reason? What do we get out of it? What do we desire, what do we crave? What is that "itch" we are trying to scratch? What excites us about male vulnerability? You have to WANT to know that and want to be the person to satisfy that - and guess what, it might NOT be all about your fantasies. And it might be difficult. It might be boring sometimes. It might be hard work. And: We HAVE to be ATTRACTED to a man to want to dominate him. PERIOD!

It all starts with effort, though. And many submissive men skip it and want to move to the next prospect because it wasn't hot enough for them, or it was too risky, or too intimidating....or too much work!

Akasha

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/1/2008 7:52:43 PM

MasterFireMaam

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You don't have to be anything that you are not. In fact, I highly recommend that you don't chip away yourself and you Self in order to please someone else. Find someone who matches you.

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/1/2008 7:56:44 PM

Reigna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinnipedster

But as a pesonality thing, does the sub need to display some indication that he's doing things "agaisnt his will" in order for it to be a turn-on for you?

No. My sub is a horny little slutball sissy and will do absolutely ANYTHING; his willingness turns me on. Expanding the meaning of ANYTHING turns me on even more, so I like reluctance, too. Go figure.

quote:

I would like to try some feminization play, for instance, but (contrary to what seems to be the popular belief) most Dommes really aren't into it ...

Goodness, what popular belief is that? Feminization squicks most people, and in this Dommes, generic, are like most people. (Yes, of course, there are exceptions. I'm one of them.)

quote:

Yet it seems to be the smart-alecky and rebellious male subs who get their attention, not those of use who are actually eager to please (but also eager to experience discipline) ... How does one get around this? Or do I have it wrong? Do I need to learn to *appear* reluctant and resistant in order to attract a dominant woman, particulalry a sadistic one? I don't know what to do!

SAMs can be fun. Subs who are both eager to please and eager to experience discipline also are fun. the difference is not a big, huge metaphysical issue unless you choose to make it one. It's more a matter of interpersonal chemisty. Just keep looking. There are Dommes out there who will enjoy dominating you while enjoying your masochistic little self.

One final word. The question, "If I like it, am I really submitting?" is fascinating, but don't worry overmuch about it. That way lies madness. Fact is, you'd love to do things you hate. (Thank you, Jay Wiseman.) The cognitive dissonance in that truth is enough to make a person's head explode, and I hate to see a perfectly good sub wasted that way.

< Message edited by Reigna -- 6/1/2008 8:06:25 PM >

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/1/2008 9:44:24 PM

pinnipedster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MISTRESSKUMA

Im sorry. I guess I need to ask, serve and suffer in a way which ends up coming back to you and the fetishes you have or do ya mean serve like doing things that dont relate to you. For such examples as painting her entire house and rubbing her feet and things like these kind of examples?

Well, it would depend. I think that D/s, like any other relationship, has to be a two-way street. If a woman I'd just met told me to paint her house and I got nothing in return, not even her company, that's not going to happen; it's not meeting any of my needs. On the other hand, if we'd been in a D/s relationship for a while, and my role as her submissive was clearly established, that would be very different.

(Foot rubbing, on the other hand, I'd do for just about any woman whose feet were reasonably clean -- or I could wash them first...)

I certainly don't expect her to spend all her time catering only to my fetishes; that would be one-way in the *other* direction. (I *would* expect more-or-less that from a pro Domme.) On the other hand, I would like to find someone whose interests compliment mine in such a way as to make us both happy. For instance, whether it was a D/s relationship or not, I could not be in a relationship with someone who did not accept the fact that I crossdress occasionally. If it was a D/s relationship, exactly how that might fit into things is very negotiable. But if she is completely turned off by the prospect, then we should probably both look elsewhere.

But, even if she does choose to indulge some of my own kinks, I would ideally still like it under her control. I went to a play party once with a Domme friend. I went to her condo first to change (I was going en femme). When I arrived, she informed me that she was going to use that stretchy medical bandage stuff (I don't know the name) to bind up my cock and balls. She didn't ask me or offer to do it, she just told me it was going to happen. That, right there, was the most exciting part of the night for me.

While I do want to thoroughly discuss wants, needs, hard and soft limits, and so forth ahead of time, once a play session starts, I want her to be in control. And I do think that once things were farther along, once we became more than just play partners, that I would become much more inclined to find my satisfaction in obedience and pleasing her, rather than just in having kinky fun.

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/1/2008 9:59:49 PM

pinnipedster

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Responding in general:

I understand that being totally passive is not a good strategy, even though it is my natural tendency if I am in a "scene" situation. In a more social situation, then yes, I am going to treat women (including dominant ones) as equals, at least until such time as I'm under the control of someone who wants me to do otherwise. But I don't know exactly how to move from casual social contact to something more intimate (not to mention of course the fact that almost any time I have knowingly met a dominant woman, she already had a male sub with her, but I'm sure everyone has been around that bush before).

But really, a lot of my problems in seeking dominant women are not that different from my problems in seeking women in general. Women like confident and succesful men. While I think I am intelligent, generally pleasant to be around, and have a good sense of humor, I am not and never have been socially confident. I am probably at my absolute worst when meeting new people. And while I make a living, I don't have a career that I can brag about, or even that is personally fulfilling on some level; I just have a job to pay the bills. It's not the sort of thing you want to put in a personal ad...

I'm certain I could make a good sub for someone out there, but finding her....yeesh. Oh well. I suppose better to keep looking some way than to give up entirely...

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/1/2008 10:04:08 PM

pinnipedster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reigna

Goodness, what popular belief is that? Feminization squicks most people, and in this Dommes, generic, are like most people. (Yes, of course, there are exceptions. I'm one of them.)

Well, I have had the experience of talking to several Dommes who were not themselves into feminization, but seemed to think most other Dommes were ("I seem to be the only one who doesn't want my slave in lingerie") -- they all thought they were the exception; I found it rather amusing And it's certainly a common theme in Femdom stories, and also of course a very common thing for ProDommes to advertise -- perhaps precisely because there are few lifestyle Dommes into it.

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/1/2008 10:08:30 PM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinnipedster

I'm certain I could make a good sub for someone out there,

Why?

Serious question.

Make a list. Write it down. What do you bring to a relationship? Pretend it's vanilla. Don't include kink at all. Be clear on what makes you valuable.

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/1/2008 10:54:11 PM

subexploring

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I sort of agree and sort of disagree with Akasha (she seems a little exasperated). I'm pretty good with vanilla women, and dommes are the same in some ways but different in others. I do think dommes are more open to a kind of certain kind of humility, sweetness, deference, a follower/service orientation from the man. Maybe even showing a little bit of intimidation. Those things can really turn off vanilla women. (This is one reason why cocky assholes tend to do well with women).

On the other hand, those qualities are different than passivity. At the extremes, passivity is almost a desire to be served by another person, who you expect to provide all the activity. Submission is not about being serviced by the domme.

So sub men should avoid passivity, be confident and centered enough to approach and show who you are as a person. But you can turn off the overbearing macho stuff, which is nice if you aren't really into that.

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/2/2008 12:03:33 AM

LadyPhoenixRisen

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I love that the boy I am talking to is so very open and excited about new experiences. Yes, there are serious times..don't get me wrong, but it's all the more fun for me if I know I am giving him pleasure in the pain. I will push his limits of course, but even during that time I want him to be eager and excited to please me.

Maybe I am not a good dominant then, because seeing that in him gives me pleasure and makes me want to only get closer to him.

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/2/2008 11:44:58 AM

pixelslave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinnipedster

Responding in general:

I understand that being totally passive is not a good strategy, even though it is my natural tendency if I am in a "scene" situation. In a more social situation, then yes, I am going to treat women (including dominant ones) as equals, at least until such time as I'm under the control of someone who wants me to do otherwise. But I don't know exactly how to move from casual social contact to something more intimate (not to mention of course the fact that almost any time I have knowingly met a dominant woman, she already had a male sub with her, but I'm sure everyone has been around that bush before).

If you're on target with anything it's that until the two of you agree there's going to be a power exchange between you, you are indeed equals. Until then, just be yourself and above all be a gentleman with good manners to show her respect. I strongly suggest that you never bring up the subject of sex, your kinks or your desires for any kind of play until she opens that door and leads you there. However, I would recommend flirting with her and I've found that a certain amount of innuendo is usually well received. All women like to know they're attractive and that you desire them.

Those women you meet who already have subs are very important to make a good impression on. You know why? Very often they know other women who are looking for subs, and may think of you then suggest an introduction.

quote:

But really, a lot of my problems in seeking dominant women are not that different from my problems in seeking women in general. Women like confident and succesful men. While I think I am intelligent, generally pleasant to be around, and have a good sense of humor, I am not and never have been socially confident. I am probably at my absolute worst when meeting new people. And while I make a living, I don't have a career that I can brag about, or even that is personally fulfilling on some level; I just have a job to pay the bills. It's not the sort of thing you want to put in a personal ad...

You don't have to compete with anyone else. There's always going to be someone else out there with a better job, a nicer house, more money in the bank, etc., but that doesn't make you any less desirable as a sub to many women out there. If a woman is all caught up in materialistic things, then perhaps she's not the right woman for you.

More than anything else, perhaps you need to let go of any sense of failure or disapointment in yourself that you're carrying around (a.k.a excess baggage) of some unmet expectation you may have that goes back to your teens regarding where you thought you'd be by the time you reached your current age. Perhaps your mom or dad said something about what they expected you'd become? I don't know, but it's clear you don't feel you've met someone's standard. Its time to learn that it's only your standard that matters (until you find a Domme that is).

quote:

I'm certain I could make a good sub for someone out there, but finding her....yeesh. Oh well. I suppose better to keep looking some way than to give up entirely...

Not only do you keep looking, you keep working; as in working on yourself! As RedMagic1 said, "What do you bring to the relationship?" I suggest you start by working on your self-esteem /self-confidence and making a list of the positive things about yourself that you can offer a woman as her submissive. Once you do that, then go out and learn things that you think a Domme would appreciate. Take a class in massage, learn to give manicures & pedicures. Take a cooking class or something else that interests you that will also help you serve or make you a more desirable submissive to any woman. D/s relationships aren't just about play, they're also about service and making both of your lives better.

Oh, and as for enjoying the same kinks? Happens all the time! Don't worry about that part until you build the relationship that's going to get you there.

- pixel

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/2/2008 11:59:59 AM

RumpusParable

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

And: We HAVE to be ATTRACTED to a man to want to dominate him. PERIOD!

No, not "period". My desire to dominate a specific male rarely has anything at all with being attracted. In the facts of it, it's the minority of the time I feel any attraction towards a male that is submissive to me and attraction is never my motivation for domination. Those rare times that I am both attracted to and feel dominant towards a male are times of pleasant coexistance of the two feelings, not one creating the other.

There's a lot of variety out here.

< Message edited by RumpusParable -- 6/2/2008 12:01:48 PM >

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/2/2008 1:35:44 PM

TwoNYCDommes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinnipedster

Do I need to learn to *appear* reluctant and resistant in order to attract a dominant woman, particulalry a sadistic one?

I would definitely advise you not to pretend to be something you are not. Different dommes have different motivations and preferences (as indicated by the variety of responses so far). Of the two of us, one likes to make people do things they really want to do, while the other likes to make people do things they really do not want to do. Pretending to be something that would please one of us would not necessarily please the other, and would displease us both when/if we discovered the pretense--which is almost certain to happen eventually.

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/2/2008 3:40:35 PM

Steponme73

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As you can see from the various posts each person is different. Each woman is different. Some want resistance, some don't. Some live to dominate and subjegate others want someone who will roll over. The key is to find out what turns them on...What do they like. You of course have to decide what you want to be. I don't think any of them would like to dominate someone who is faking the whole thing...where would the fun be in that.
You have to be honest, and true to your feelings...in turn, you have to adjust somewhat to what excites the woman you are bowing before.
There is a fine line there and maybe a very hard one to define.

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/2/2008 4:05:09 PM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

And: We HAVE to be ATTRACTED to a man to want to dominate him. PERIOD!

No, not "period". My desire to dominate a specific male rarely has anything at all with being attracted. In the facts of it, it's the minority of the time I feel any attraction towards a male that is submissive to me and attraction is never my motivation for domination. Those rare times that I am both attracted to and feel dominant towards a male are times of pleasant coexistance of the two feelings, not one creating the other.

There's a lot of variety out here.

I use the term "attraction" to include some affection, even if it's not lust based -- so if you are not attracted to a man, why dominate him? On a regular basis, that is. There must be some level of enjoyment - whether it be affection, friendship, or lust. I can't fathom wanting to spend time with someone I am not attracted to on some level let alone dominate them. Why?

Akasha

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/2/2008 5:20:55 PM

ThundersCry

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I see being relactant at times as only part of the exchange of....power...

Also, just because some submissives like certain *things*...does not mean that they will let just anyone do those *things* to....them...

Since when is punishment something to be...enjoyed? Acting out to be...punished????

Show me a *submissive* who never gets any of their wants/needs or desires met and I will show you a very unhappy submissive....resentful may be a better....word. Try dealing with that....

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/2/2008 5:26:33 PM

MISTRESSKUMA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThundersCry

I see being relactant at times as only part of the exchange of....power...

Also, just because some submissives like certain *things*...does not mean that they will let just anyone do those *things* to....them...

Since when is punishment something to be...enjoyed? Acting out to be...punished????

Show me a *submissive* who never gets any of their wants/needs or desires met and I will show you a very unhappy submissive....resentful may be a better....word. Try dealing with that....

submiting for play or submit to serve the one you want to worship and do for? which one if both, more?

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/2/2008 6:55:11 PM

ThundersCry

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does *play* mean....casual...or

are you talking about *play* with the one you serve...*worship*?

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/2/2008 7:17:21 PM

LadyPact

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Reluctance is not a requirement in My book. Like My boy said prior, if I want to try something new, he's generally all for it. It makes Me happy, it makes him happy, so it's win/win.

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RE: Does a sub have to be reluctant? - 6/2/2008 8:47:55 PM

RumpusParable

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quote:

I use the term "attraction" to include some affection, even if it's not lust based -- so if you are not attracted to a man, why dominate him? On a regular basis, that is. There must be some level of enjoyment - whether it be affection, friendship, or lust. I can't fathom wanting to spend time with someone I am not attracted to on some level let alone dominate them. Why?

But this definition of "attraction" simply means "not repelled, repulsed or disliking". In that, I can agree... I've zero interest in having *anyone* in my life for *any* reason if there is any dislike for them, of whatever type. Yes, in *that* way I need to be "attracted" to the person.

Sometimes there is friendship or affection there, certainly!, but sometimes there's just "we fit each other's current needs" and nothing more.

< Message edited by RumpusParable -- 6/2/2008 8:49:21 PM >

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