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RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 5:21:22 PM

DomAviator

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Joined: 4/22/2008
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You know Alum, the Tuskegee experiment is actually one of the LESS aggregious experiments that the PHS has done and the only reason people give a rats ass about it is because the victims were black. How about the Plutonium studies at the University of Rochester? Civilian patients, in a private medical facility, including infants were dosed with Plutonium to see what it would do to them...

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/experiments_with_radiation.htm

OK these werent even military personell, prisoners, or black men who already had syphillis. Some of these were pregnant women given radioactive isotopes to see the effect on the fetus... The studies happened in Rochester, NY, Boston, Los Angeles, all over the place.... Why wasnt there a Miss Evers Boys movie made about them??? Why isnt Jerimiah Wright screaming for ALL subjects of medical experimentation without informed consent rather than just black ones? Its OK to irradiate caucasion, native American, and hispanic babies in utero, but make sure you cure a black mans syphillis???

How about the study recently in which a "safe" flu strain was released in the NY City subway system to model the spread of an H5N1 outbreak??? Granted that was "safe" but I dont like being laid up with the flu and certainly wouldnt have opted to participate in such a study.

Jerimiah Wright could give a shit who does what to who, as long as the "victims" arent black. He wouldnt give a rats ass if we dusted off the Unit 731 playbook and started vivisections on everyone other than his parishoners...

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 81

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 5:41:16 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

You know Alum, the Tuskegee experiment is actually one of the LESS aggregious experiments that the PHS has done and the only reason people give a rats ass about it is because the victims were black. How about the Plutonium studies at the University of Rochester? Civilian patients, in a private medical facility, including infants were dosed with Plutonium to see what it would do to them...

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/experiments_with_radiation.htm

OK these werent even military personell, prisoners, or black men who already had syphillis. Some of these were pregnant women given radioactive isotopes to see the effect on the fetus... The studies happened in Rochester, NY, Boston, Los Angeles, all over the place.... Why wasnt there a Miss Evers Boys movie made about them??? Why isnt Jerimiah Wright screaming for ALL subjects of medical experimentation without informed consent rather than just black ones? Its OK to irradiate caucasion, native American, and hispanic babies in utero, but make sure you cure a black mans syphillis???

How about the study recently in which a "safe" flu strain was released in the NY City subway system to model the spread of an H5N1 outbreak??? Granted that was "safe" but I dont like being laid up with the flu and certainly wouldnt have opted to participate in such a study.

Jerimiah Wright could give a shit who does what to who, as long as the "victims" arent black. He wouldnt give a rats ass if we dusted off the Unit 731 playbook and started vivisections on everyone other than his parishoners...

Well, that's mighty desperate spin, but what Wright actually said, in answer to a hypothetical question, was that it was conceivable that the US government was capable of doing such things because they already had... thanks for proving his point even more.
And thanks for adding your name to the list of posters here who keep pretending that the women and children deliberately infected at Tuskegee were either asking for it or don't matter.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/2/2008 5:42:53 PM >

(in reply to DomAviator)

Post #: 82

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 5:52:00 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

~ Fast Reply ~

Yes the men's family were 'compensated' - but what compensation would be enough regardless if the initial cause for the disease was self inflicted? This was an abomination.

But I'm curious. Is this ongoing discussion of the atrocity of the Tuskegee experiment allowed because the reference should enable the voters of the US to rationalize Senator Obama having the nomination, if not the Presidency itself, by acclamation? Combined with the US history of slavery, and as recently pointed out by the Senator's other long term influential spiritual counselor, Father Pfleger; white people's 401k saving created by the repression of blacks why should it be necessary to vote? Would appointing Senator Obama as President be considered some sort of white self-loathing apologist payment?

Seriously, does anyone think the man is qualified? Do any of his actions give you confidence in his judgment and ability to lead? He has been in the Senate less than four years, he was a participating member of the Trinity Church for 20. Which history is more representative. Yet with that investment in time, now he leaves it? And for what purpose. The man who he now gives as a reason for his departure from the congregation is the same man he pushed for, and succeeded in, giving $200,000 of Illinois taxpayer money to while he in the State legislature. There isn't much history on this man, but what their is would, under any other circumstance, DIS-qualify him for consideration to the office of President.

For your consideration kittensol - the 'Hippocratic Oath'

quote:

To teach medicine to the sons of my teacher.

To practice and prescribe to the best of my ability for the good of my patients, and to try to avoid harming them.

Never to do deliberate harm to anyone for anyone else's interest.

To avoid violating the morals of my community.

To avoid attempting to do things that other specialists can do better.

To keep the good of the patient as the highest priority.

To avoid sexual relationships or other inappropriate entanglements with patients and families.

I'm sure #7 was never violated. All the rest however would be subject to open to debate. Maybe in the original Greek it would be clearer; Ὄμνυμι Ἀπόλλωνα ἰητρὸν, καὶ Ἀσκληπιὸν, καὶ Ὑγείαν, καὶ Πανάκειαν, καὶ θεοὺς πάντας τε καὶ πάσας, ἵστορας ποιεύμενος, ἐπιτελέα ποιήσειν κατὰ δύναμιν καὶ κρίσιν ἐμὴν ὅρκον τόνδε καὶ ξυγγραφὴν τήνδε.

However, since the oath was given to as a pledge to Apollo, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea are the Doctors in question and their accountability to those deities meaningful?

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 83

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 5:55:03 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

I wouldn't know, still reeling from learning about this for the first time. I asked the question about compensation because compensating the victims would have been an admission of guilt, at least partially. I fully realise that no money could make up for something so heinous. Has there been an official public apology, however lightweight this sounds, and who made it?

PS: for your consideration, the modern Hippocratic oath.

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

Written in 1964 by Louis Lasagna, Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University, and used in many medical schools today.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.html

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/2/2008 6:01:05 PM >

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 84

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 5:59:07 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

Why at this point in the month you have a fascination with the color red is anybody's guess.

However, the color does nothing to alter the point that the government is not racist, just morally reprehensible. There is no genocidal conspiracy against black people, and there never was. In the eyes of government researchers, every American is a potential guinea pig. Tuskegee pales next to Bimini Atoll, University of Rochester, the Boston Project, and other examples of human experimentation without consent (much less informed consent).

Large fonts and bright colors are not going to alter those facts one iota.

_____________________________

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 85

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 6:00:37 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Once again, I've already provided a list with debunking links, and you tap danced around them them... which is what you are doing now.
Why won't you stand still and answer the question about the government infecting black people? How was Wright incorrect about his comments on that? How was Wright (and MLK Jr), incorrect in his comments about God's disapproval of what America has done to minorities and others around the world?

Any chance of a link to where you posted the links, Alum? I'm curious to see this. I'm not even familiar with the charges they reputedly debunk, but since it seems to be the latest offering of distraction points, I'd like to stay current.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 86

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 6:08:23 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

Obama being qualified or not qualified isn't the item under discussion. Precious little has been said about his actual abilities

The point is, that instead of demonstrating his inadequacies, these forums have been flooded with a pack of easily disproven lies about his being sworn in on a Koran, his being a muslim terrorist, his being a corrupt politician come up through the Chicago ward system, his not being a US citizen, his 'playing the race card' (by writing an autobiography identifying his father as black), and a similar spate of lies about Wright...draft dodger, fraud, racist, and author of the 'chickens come home to roost' quote on 9/11 victims....

Now the current sickening claim that the Tuskegee Experiment he cited while answering a hypothetical question of whether or not the government was capable of doing such things, was not a case of government infecting anyone.

And every reference disproving these lies, from Snopes to actual footages and transcripts, has been blithely ignored while the lies keep getting chanted louder and louder.

The identical pattern is spread across CollarMe in defense of polygamist child molesters, historical revisionists, patently phony claims of personal expertise or status, and so forth.

Maybe some people enjoy swallowing that sort of crap, but it isn't my cup of tea.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 87

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 6:45:02 PM

atursvcMaam

Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline

Let me see if i understand Your numbers correctly. 10% of a particular population consider an item to have been done and 20% of a population consider it to have been a possibility, it then becomes a fact? To be specific, that the government intentionally infected this population. Could they? Probably, there are stories about the treatment of the indians in just that way.
But i could also find a percentage of folks, nationally and/or internationally that would dismiss the holocaust and Hitler's eugenics experimentation, claim the world was flat, and that no man had ever been in space, much less on the moon. 30% (adding the 2 together) is an impressive number, and could keep one thinking they are on the right track, it is a respectable batting average, but it does not make somthing conlusive.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 88

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 6:46:37 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

Thanks but no thanks for the straw argument.

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

Post #: 89

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 6:53:37 PM

Irishknight

Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline

That is a good point about the indians. One of our governments early tactics was to trade goods such as blankets from smallpox victims to the indians. The source for one such incident is considered to be a fairly reliable missionary who was appalled at the action and wrote it in his journal.
There IS a precedent for our government doing this.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 90

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 7:02:57 PM

DomAviator

Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline

Irish,

Not to mention that the formerly open air nuclear, chemical, and biological test sites were surrounded by nothing but Indian reservations... Think the good dr's at the bureau of indian affairs havent been monitoring isotope levels when doing "tribal health checkups"??? But Jeremiah Wright doesnt give a damn about them cause native americans arent black....

(in reply to Irishknight)

Post #: 91

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 7:07:52 PM

meticulousgirl

Posts: 969
Joined: 2/20/2007
Status: offline

It's not over until it's over

GO HILLARY SOME PEOPLE STILL HAVE FAITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

~meticulous~

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 92

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 7:19:24 PM

pinksugarsub

Posts: 1224
Status: offline

i'd be interested in seeing some of Clinton's tv commercials from the Puerto Rico primary; i wonder if she used a translator or s'thing. A/anyone know?

pinksugarsub

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Post #: 93

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 7:21:12 PM

Smith117

Posts: 1447
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

If Obama wins, say sayonara to the United States of America.

The man is a racist, terrorist-appeaser, anti-American, and is completely unqualified for the job.

Well, that's one narrow-minded, ill-informed opinion on the subject.

Luckily it appears the rest of us know differently.

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 94

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 7:36:23 PM

atursvcMaam

Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Thanks but no thanks for the straw argument.

    All right, you have spouted a lot of facts and figures, and wish to set the record straight, but please answer these questions:

     To remove the racial bent of these things, please do not answer from a racial perspective.

    1. What makes me responsible for or culpable for the Tuskegee experiment?

    2. What makes me responsible for slavery?

    3. is there a sane reason to ignore the association(s) of a presidential candidate with a hate-mongering rabble rouser?

     i am willing to approach things with an open mind, but not so open that my brains can run off on vacation.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 95

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 7:41:29 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

Perhaps you can open your mind to the extent of finding links to where I've said any of these things you keep putting in my mouth?

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

Post #: 96

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 8:10:33 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

Didn't think so.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 97

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 8:12:45 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Speaking of links, do you have any to how they faked those sermons from Trinity?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 98

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 8:16:18 PM

atursvcMaam

Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Perhaps you can open your mind to the extent of finding links to where I've said any of these things you keep putting in my mouth?

Your quotes: i am to inept to link them:

I'm saying to ignore things that are clearly fabricated lies, no matter who they are about.

And do you have any of these 'divisive comments' that aren't spin jobs?

Why won't you stand still and answer the question about the government infecting black people? How was Wright incorrect about his comments on that? How was Wright (and MLK Jr), incorrect in his comments about God's disapproval of what America has done to minorities and others around the world?

Obama is closer to being a member of the "government" than i am. The comments that attributed to his advisors show in inclination towards vengeance and retribution, not so much correction. i consider my responsibility to try and put the most effective person to minimize, and hopefully eliminate abuses. Not to replace one set of abusive folk with another, nor to simply change the roster of "victims". Strangely enough, Mr Obama's promise of "Change" does not eliminate that as a possibility.

< Message edited by atursvcMaam -- 6/2/2008 8:18:20 PM >

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 99

RE: Does Obama have the Democratic Nomination? - 6/2/2008 8:17:23 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

Speaking of links, do you have any to how they faked those sermons from Trinity?

You've ignored the long list of links, from Snopes on out that I've given over the last few weeks, including those showing what Wright actually said, you've ignored the facts presented in these recent threads, and guess what?

You've forfeited the right to demand links for fabricated claims I never made.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 100

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