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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 1:35:44 PM   
TwoNYCDommes


Posts: 237
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
I see some (vanilla and femdom) women being irritated or disappointed in their man because he isn't proactive enough, and I get frustrated with the women because all they need to do is be more direct and state their expectations and men, by their nature, almost always follow instructions.  This is a man/woman issue to me, and I think men in general appreciate a woman who is straight forward about what she wants and just opens her mouth and he'd be happy to follow the instructions if given them. That's how the male brain (most of the time) works. 


This topic definitely comes up among vanilla friends and family from time to time.  When someone complains about lack of proactivity in someone else, I try to point out that she could probably get what she wanted if she'd only say it clearly.  When someone complains from the opposite side, I'm typically sympathetic.  While asking someone for what you want does not guarantee that you'll get it, it generally increases the odds.

< Message edited by TwoNYCDommes -- 6/3/2008 1:36:56 PM >

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 1:49:18 PM   
bashfulhuck


Posts: 119
Joined: 5/26/2008
Status: offline 		i guess i had it rather easy with my Domina. She always told me exactly what it was she wanted from me in situations like that. i loved being attentive to her, serving her was what i needed in life. It would have been very difficult to anticipate what it is she might want, because she would just change habits on a whim.
Now, were she to tell me she wanted me to do a list of things at the gas station, and i forgot to do one of them, then it would be my ass, and i knew it.

(in reply to TwoNYCDommes)
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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 1:49:41 PM   
ElanSubdued


Posts: 1511
Status: offline 		Akasha,

After reading your hypothetical scenario, my honest reaction is:  if a Domina assumes the worst of her partner, she will always find this.  Everybody forgets to offer a courtesy from time-to-time.  The submissive filled up the car, paid for the gas (no small feat and sacrifice with today's gas prices), and now the Domina wants to find fault because he forgot to offer a drink?  I just don't see the point in this.  It's counterproductive and is an example of creating issues that don't need to be.

Perhaps the submissive should know intuitively to offer his Domina a drink.  When I'm driving with my Domina and/or with others, and we're on a long trip, I always offer drinks.  However, it's true, from time-to-time I've forgotten this courtesy and my Domina or someone has asked "can we get drinks before we leave the gas station"?  Of course, I always feel bad that I forgot and consequently everyone gets extra special attention from me for the rest of the road trip.

In the case of this submissive, if there is a clearly established protocol that the submissive is to offer a drink, were I the Domina, I'd gently remind him (or, in Skakti style, slap him on the ass and say "while you're in there slut, please get me my favourite soda").  If this protocol isn't established, again, were I the Domina, I'd simply ask for what I wanted (whether this be a drink in the immediate or the submissive to always offer drinks when stopping at a gas station).

There really is a lot to be said for the adage:  ask and you shall receive, especially when you have a submissive around.  Sometimes partners are able to intuitively, proactively determine each other's needs, but this isn't always the case.  If a Domina is in doubt or she isn't getting what she wants, I think it's a good idea for her to communicate her needs and desires to her submissive.

One of the traits I notice and admire in effective Dominants is their ability to make corrections and to get what they want without interrupting the flow of the main activity going on.  On this hypothetical road trip, what seems to have happened is a small misunderstanding of desires or perhaps the submissive simply forgot.  This is easy to correct.  Respectfully, I'd suggest to the Domina that she do so (in a loving way) and not give this any more thought. :-)

Elan.

< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 6/3/2008 2:05:20 PM >

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 2:01:24 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		Whoa whoa WHOA there, buddy.

quote:

These things are almost universally true in most / all  female - male relationships: He is wrong. He should apologize. This is a constant state of being regardless of circumstances.


First, no.  Second, why do you think situations like this occurr?  It's because she has to defend her turf, because most of the real power in the relationship comes from HIM.  Men, by nature, benefit more directly if the women can go off on her own and raise his kids while he gets busy finding another woman.  Or conquering the next tribe over and just taking their women, but that's difficult to apply in modern society.  So 'fuck 'em and leave 'em' is a viable strategy, although it has problems.  I.E., the quality of children raised goes up if there's more parenting going on and less wandering.  So as a man, genetically speaking, you have to make a tradeoff: which is worth more, quantity or quality?  The fact that you have that choice means that women are less in control than you are... which held true for most of human history.

quote:


What man has not held his tongue and said, "of course you are right, Dear. I am so sorry" in response to some imagined offence? In a relationship it's part of being committed -- the same way he will find himself in an asylum.


To continue: A relationship is less optional for a woman.  Just ask if 'slut' is a nice word to call them; this bears the truth of it.  Paradoxically, because women must be more careful about who they choose, they have more to choose from.  And there are a LOT of choices for her, nowadays.  So in the initial stages of courtship all the power lies with the woman (well, not all of it; the man always has the choice to walk away.)  Afterwards it's the man that bears the lion's share of power within the relationship, UNLESS he gives it up to her and UNLESS she fights to keep it.  One tactic of this being the "She's always right" syndrome.

Fact is, in this day and age things are far more balanced.  And if I run into a girl that insists on being right, I leave.  Quickly.  Some men will go for that, I'm not one of them. 

So now we've got a situation where some women will fight for power, some won't, some prefer the men to have most of the authority.  And vice versa: we have men who are so desirous of a commitment that they'll sacrifice all authority and pride joyfully, and some men won't regardless of circumstance.  It's not one sided, bud.


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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 2:12:45 PM   
Vestonika


Posts: 95
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Status: offline 		Why marry the whole PIG when you just want a LITTLE sausage..?

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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 2:13:15 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

One of the traits I notice and admire in effective Dominants is their ability to make corrections and to get what they want without interrupting the flow of the main activity going on.


This, however, has a potentially decent amount of wisdom in it.  I'll have to think about it.


_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 2:17:31 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		If you want sausage, you slaughter and grind the pig into bits.  I could reverse that: 'why marry the b*tch if all you want is some doggy style?'

But like I said, quality kids make it worth the price frequently.  And if you and I can find partners that fit, then why get rid of them?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vestonika

Why marry the whole PIG when you just want a LITTLE sausage..?


_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 2:58:58 PM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

A hypothetical scenario to spark some discussion....

A femdom-oriented couple are on a long road trip (driving). They make a pit stop to get gas and the submissive handles getting the gasoline and paying the bill.  The femdom finds herself disappointed when they leave and he fails to ask her if she'd like something to drink before they get back on the road. In her opinion, he should be attentive to her needs, and he should know that a soda or water might be a nice thing to offer.  This, in her opinion, is proactive, attentive submission.  Is he a bad sub?

The submissive's point of view, after they discuss it later, is that all she needs to do is ask and he'd be happy to get her something, he just didn't think about it. So, what's the proper protocol here?

A) A submissive should be attentive enough to know to offer/ask such simple things like whether or not she'd like something to drink
B) A submissive does as told and is HAPPY to help with anything, but he is not a mind reader. A dominant woman should not be afraid to speak up if she wants something, that's why he likes dominant women - they say what they want!
C) A submissive should just go buy her the drink without even asking and bring it back to her whether she asked or not - he's always thinking about her.

Thoughts?

Akasha



It doesn't seem like this involves mindreading at all if they've been together for a while, unless that's exactly the case -that she's suddenly started wanting this and thinks he should just magically know her change in desires.  Otherwise, why don't they have a standard habit regarding such things by now?  Are they new to each other and still learning?

In my own relationships after a reasonable period of time, be they D/s or a romantic equals relationships, my partner knows that A and C are expected by me.  D/s or equals, I tell a partner what I want so that later as the situation returns over and over they know what is wanted and expected by me and we don't have to go over the same things repeatedly.

Definintely need more info on their relationship to make a call on who, if anyone, is slacking in this situation.

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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 3:30:56 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		How hard is it for him to say "want anything?" or for her to say, "cherry coke, lots of ice, kthx".  That's how my friends and I behave in the non-kink universe.

I am all for anticipatory service.  He should know what I like to drink, and how much cream I put in my coffee. (And guess what--I know the same stuff about him! )   I don't live to find fault, or set anyone up to fail.  If this hypothetical incident was one in a long string of similar, or for instance if he got HIMSELF stuff and didn't ask me, then there would be an issue. 

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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 4:01:37 PM   
ThundersCry


Posts: 892
Status: offline 		Detail...
 
Paying attention to....detail/s....

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 6:05:03 PM   
LadyTeazer


Posts: 225
Joined: 4/1/2007
Status: offline 		For Me personally, choice "A" is the way I would react.

Domme or not, I am a woman *first*, and as such, I want to be courted.  I want to know and feel that I am special to My boy and partner.  It makes Me feel good to know that he is attentive to Me.  I do understand that occasionally he will have a lapse of thought.  And after such a lapse, I will gently (maybe even a bit sarcastically) mention something like  "...gee that root beer looks good. where's Mine?"   And then he has a "V-8 moment"  (a "duh", while palm of hand smacks forehead).   He realizes that he should have asked Me if I wanted something, and he apologizes for not doing so.  However, if there is a time when I want something in particular, I will not hesitate to ask him for it.

I must say with pride, that My boy is very good about asking if there is anything that he can get or do for Me.  I prefer it this way, rather than to have him 'automatically' bring Me something that I may, or may not, want.

As far as him being able to read My mind?   Many times he can do just that.  But if he were able to read Me all of the time, how would I ever be able to keep him from  knowing all of the wicked delights that I had planned for him?  A Lady has to have *some* secrets, ya know....   



LadyTeazer - proud Owner of [saberwulf34]
and *still* a WOW -- Wonderful Older Woman   


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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 8:03:54 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

How hard is it for him to say "want anything?" or for her to say, "cherry coke, lots of ice, kthx". That's how my friends and I behave in the non-kink universe.

I am all for anticipatory service. He should know what I like to drink, and how much cream I put in my coffee. (And guess what--I know the same stuff about him! ) I don't live to find fault, or set anyone up to fail. If this hypothetical incident was one in a long string of similar, or for instance if he got HIMSELF stuff and didn't ask me, then there would be an issue.


I concur here most strongly. This is how I live too, and also how I interact with Dommes.

You see anticipatory service can be a good thing, if it works. But when it doesn't it can not only interfere with her decision making process but also upset the dynamic, inhibit effective communication, create stress, tension, and demotivate either one or the other partner. It reduces the dynamic and the entire relationship to a guessing game.. a series of tests.

And do you really need to be developing a relationship on the basis of trial and error? Really?

"There's nothing really good or bad, only thinking makes it so," I quote Shakespeare. I somehow feel that there's a universal truth here. A situation can be bad, but not a person. The only time you're ever going to come across a bad Domme or a bad submissive is when you're not prepared to put the necessary amount of effort into the relationship. It really is down to effective communication.

Superficially it may seem a gender thing, but it isn't. Anticipatory service isn't about being a mindreader, it's about being aware of emotional cues and signals, and learning how to identify, receive, transmit, interpret and process emotional cues and signals. It's about mnon-verbal communication, body language, eye contact, facial expression, gesture, even mime. It's about being able to pick up on these cues, interpret the context of any given situation and learn how to respond in the appropriate manner.

It doesn't matter which side of the fence you're on. What you give out is what you get back. You can't enter into a relationship and somehow immediately or instantly get a return, there's always got to be some sort of investment.

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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/3/2008 10:49:19 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		The first time it happens, it's her fault for not letting it be known that she wants to be offered something to drink when they stop for gas. The subsequent times, it's his fault for forgetting what she directed him to do.

Master Fire


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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 12:14:46 AM   
jim64


Posts: 86
Joined: 10/21/2007
Status: offline 		I would have ask my Miss if she wanted anything. I might have got her something anyway, depending on the length of the trip etc. Drinks and snacks. I do not think he should be expected to read your mind. But, asking if you needed or wanted anything, yes he should do.

If i failed to do that, i might not enjoy any pain from her on road trip. : (

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 1:01:13 AM   
KSnow


Posts: 2
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		I would not actually expect the sub to know this, but what a delicious excuse for punishment anyway. 

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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 1:14:08 AM   
chezzy71


Posts: 412
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		Personally,if it is a long road trip as was suggested,then i wouldn't have to ask or her tell me to do anything.The vehicle would have been already stocked with different refreshments,her favorite and bottled water for the trip thereby avoiding the sticky situation altogether.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 10:47:23 AM   
Wheldrake


Posts: 477
Status: offline
quote:


So, what's the proper protocol here?

A) A submissive should be attentive enough to know to offer/ask such simple things like whether or not she'd like something to drink
B) A submissive does as told and is HAPPY to help with anything, but he is not a mind reader. A dominant woman should not be afraid to speak up if she wants something, that's why he likes dominant women - they say what they want!
C) A submissive should just go buy her the drink without even asking and bring it back to her whether she asked or not - he's always thinking about her.



Just to be difficult, I'll go for

D) A submissive should know his dominant well enough to have some idea of whether A, B or C is appropriate. I'm sure that some women prefer to ask for what they want, some prefer to be asked, and some prefer to have their drinks (and things) appear automatically with no asking required.

I usually go for option A with my Mistress. She likes me to show a bit of initiative and attention to her needs, but she's not quite enough of a creature of habit for option C to be really practical. I wouldn't know what kind of drink to buy on that particular occasion.

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 11:05:22 AM   
Kittypurrs


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline 		In any committed relationship a sub should know what his/her dominant needs and should be able to anticipate most of the basic wants.  I know when my Dom has a bad day that pampering him will be something he would like.  Knowing what that pampering involves is called getting to know your dominant.   However, unless anticipatory behavior is expected from the dominant the sub is not required to try and guess the needs of the dominant...although I strongly belive brownie points are earned by paying attention to their needs.

In a more casual relationship I would expect the dominant to voice her wants and needs so there is no confusion..until an expectation is formed.

(in reply to DominantJenny)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 12:03:13 PM   
CuriousPuppy


Posts: 120
Joined: 6/20/2004
Status: offline 		People can go back and forth saying the sub should know better or the dom should have said something if they wanted it... but if you boil everything down to the root cause of the problem itself, namely the dominant being disappointed and allowing it to grow into a significant issue, the dominant is the problem. 
  • If you assume the dominant should have said something to begin with, the dominant is at fault.
  • If there is some sort of already laid out ritual of the sub being required to get/offer her a drink anytime they stop anywhere, the sub is at fault for failing that and the dom causes the problem by being disappointed and fuming rather than saying something.
  • If you assume the submissive should have known/anticipated/expected such a thing, the dominant allowed things to get out of hand by being disappointed rather than asking/telling the sub to go back inside and get a drink.
  • All of the other situations people mentioned, such as having a cooler of drinks in the car, are too difficult to quantify based on the situation.  All we know is that it's a "long road trip".  That could be anywhere from a couple hours, all the way to a full day or more of driving.  If it's at the short end and only a couple hours, then packing drinks probably isn't too likely.  If it's at the long end, then maybe drinks were packed and got drank.  There is also the possiblity that drinks were gathered before the trip and left behind forgotten about (who hasn't taken a trip and realized they forgot X once they get there?) for whatever unknown reason we have no details on.

    Any relationship requires communication.  If the dominant is unable to communicate her needs and desires over wanting a drink she felt the sub should have predicted, and instead chooses to remain silent and be disappointed/fume over it until it apparently becomes a big issue, what reason do we have to believe she would have effectively voiced her needs and desires about being expected to get asked about/simply given the drink in the first place?  If this was a real incident, rather than a simple hypothetical, I would wonder if maybe there was something a little more bothering the dominant that caused her to decide to snap over something so minute and inconsiquencial as a drink at a gas station.

    < Message edited by CuriousPuppy -- 6/4/2008 12:04:57 PM >

    (in reply to Kittypurrs)
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    RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 5:25:43 PM   
    CoasttoCoast


    Posts: 71
    Joined: 5/22/2007
    Status: offline     		A truly wise sub would neglect to get his dom a soda, even if she did ask, because he would anticipate that, 30 years from now, she would appreciate his careful attention to her nutrition, even if she didn't realize it at the time.

    (in reply to DominantJenny)
    Profile   Post #: 40
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