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RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 5:33:33 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Shouldn't they have found out if they were compatible prior to taking a vacation together?

Some tops love anticipatory service. Others find it deprives them of the ability to order subs to do stuff. People should know themselves well enough to be able to state that they prefer one way or the other. In addition, some subs just love being ordered around and a 'fetch me a cold coke, slave' might make him happy for hours. In which case he should have mentioned that in beginning negotiations.

IMO, this is not something to argue about, it's something to talk about in an interesting conversation for the next couple of hours and should be resolved easily once both people understand where the other comes from and what they prefer, and why.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to DominantJenny)

Post #: 41

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 5:38:48 PM

BoiJen

Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline

Umm.. you used the words soda and nutrition in the same thought...that doesn't make sense to me.

Now the topic!

Anticipatory service is asking. It's not mind reading. And if She's alseep on the drive when I stop I'll just grab some water and go from there. No biggie. And I'll be making this practice again soon.

(in reply to CoasttoCoast)

Post #: 42

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 6:13:05 PM

ShaktiSama

Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CoasttoCoast

A truly wise sub would neglect to get his dom a soda, even if she did ask, because he would anticipate that, 30 years from now, she would appreciate his careful attention to her nutrition, even if she didn't realize it at the time.

From the health-conscious submissive, I am more than willing to settle for a big cup of unsweetened iced tea with some lemon slices.

Problem is that often times, you can't get that, and bottled water usually tastes and smells like liquid plastic to me, unless it has some sort of masking flavor.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to CoasttoCoast)

Post #: 43

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 6:25:47 PM

CoasttoCoast

Posts: 71
Joined: 5/22/2007
Status: offline

Perhaps he could find oranges, and, using only the muscles in his buttocks, squeeze a fresh glass for you?

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 44

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 6:40:19 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

I am very skilled at reading minds. Once I claimed to a domme that I knew what she was thinking. Then I said, for instance, right now you are wondering if I really know what you are thinking. And I was absolutely right! She was very impressed!

;-)

Amongst reasons I enjoy attentiveness is that I feel it's one area where a submissive has an opportunity to be actively thinking and to be creative, a thread common to things I enjoy in general. I think it is an area where I am more directly able to gauge how I am faring in my role.

I think the specific example--asking about a drink during a road trip--leans in favor of responses that call for attentiveness because this type of courtesy is commonly offered on road trips. Therefore, instead of referring to the specific example, I am going to speak generally of a scenario where a domme wants an action to be done.

Here is my take.

When a submissive performs attentive service, I think he is initiating an exchange in the D/s dynamic. The domme contributes to the D/s dynamic by accepting the service. When a domme gives instructions towards a wish, she is initiating an exchange in the D/s dynamic. The submissive contributes to the D/s dynamic by complying. In each case my statement assumes that the exchange lies within established boundaries of the relationship. I think each person should initiate each respective scenario when an opportunity is present, and that a power exchange relationship that has both types of contribution is fuller than one that has only one type or the other.

It's like the ying and the yang. And if you throw a little beating in there, you have the yong, which brings us to the BDSM symbol ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 6/4/2008 6:42:32 PM >

(in reply to CoasttoCoast)

Post #: 45

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 6:40:29 PM

ShaktiSama

Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
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"Coast, this juice tastes like ASS! Where the hell did you get this?"

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to CoasttoCoast)

Post #: 46

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 6:44:33 PM

LadyElizabeth327

Posts: 6
Joined: 6/4/2008
Status: offline

Please forgive my ignorance, I am new to the lifestyle. However, my opinion is that a Mistress should train her sub to her likes and dislikes…… and if he disappoints her- he should be corrected with whatever means she sees fit. I would appreciate feedback. Thank you.

(in reply to DominantJenny)

Post #: 47

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 6:55:39 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
Anticipatory service is asking. It's not mind reading.

I favor the term attentive service, which I think includes asking, observing, and anticipating. I consider anticipatory service to be a subset of attentive service.

quote:

And if She's alseep on the drive when I stop I'll just grab some water and go from there.

And now deep thoughts* by Sea Handy:

Suppose there is a domme and a sub on a road trip. And suppose the sub stops at a gas station and the domme is asleep. Suppose the sub picks up a bottle of water for her, and then gets a cup of warm water and dips her pinky in it. I mean, who's to say whether he is playing a prank on her or whether he is arranging for a drink to stay hydrated?

* Saturday Night Live reference ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 48

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 9:29:07 PM

jonathan

Posts: 196
Joined: 8/5/2004
Status: offline

Yes, definite thoughts. It should be anticipatory if at all possible, i've gotten disciplined in the past for just such an omission. In some situations, it's really too simple. If that had been me, ice cold bottle of water & Her favorite snack, chocolate, nuts, etc.

So, one from colum A) & one from colum C).

Yes, bad sub.

P.S. i like the new avatar, Ms. Akasha

_____________________________

jonathan
http://www.slaveregister.com/000-515-587

"But in purple, i am stunning!"
"Before You slip into unconsciousness, i'd like to have another kiss, another flashing chance at bliss, another kiss, another kiss"

(in reply to AAkasha)

Post #: 49

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/4/2008 9:39:05 PM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

PROBLEMS WITH ANTICIPATORY SERVICE Number 4.

Him: Can I get you a soda, Ma'am?

Her: You can.

there is a pause.

Him: Any particular flavor Ma'am?

Her: Think about when I was with my ex-husband..

Him: Ma'am... I don't think they do asshole flavor soda.

_____________________________

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(in reply to jonathan)

Post #: 50

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/5/2008 1:24:02 AM

Celeres

Posts: 166
Joined: 3/9/2008
Status: offline

As a fairly (subtle) submissive, I have been in long-roadtrips with my friends who were never really "dominant." However, my two cents are as follows. The most "ideal" option I think is "E." If people live in hot areas, or in otherways, be sitting in a hot and humid car ride for a prolonged period (such as LA or the deep south), then a ice cheat/cooler is usually filled with ice and a variety of drinks and refreshments.

It also depends on how long they've been together, because she might have all the finances needed to purchase anything extrenous. But if the sub has his own money, then certainly he/she should refill the ice chest with whatever is missing/running low. It should, by no means be "expected" but is a "nice gesture." I personally think if a submissive tries to anticipate something, it can turn out even worse. Imagine if the Mistress was PMSing and she felt like a cold soda, but didn't want the calories: if the submissive got her a soda, he could be reamed for not being more "sensitive" to her needs. That's just an example.

Option B should be a given, as most submissives find pleasure in offering services and following commands.

So, in summation, my final thoughts would be a slight amalgamation of A, B, C and D. However, if there is an ice chest, it should already be filled. If the submissive was about to pay, but noticed some exotic drink that is rarely foudn in households (such as an energy drink or something), he could pick it up, showing the Dominant that he was thinking of them while away for 30 seconds. Even if it is turned down, there's still the ice chest in case she changes her mind 10-15 miles down the road.

(in reply to DominantJenny)

Post #: 51

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/5/2008 5:05:21 AM

MissLily

Posts: 146
Joined: 8/19/2007
Status: offline

I'd have to choose B.

That being said, some subs use the Ds relationship dynamic to be lazy. Because the female is Dominante doesn't mean that they have to stop thinking and try to find ways to be proactive. Initiative is nice too. Mind reading is just not realistic though.

Miss Lily

(in reply to AAkasha)

Post #: 52

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/5/2008 6:19:25 AM

QueensWay

Posts: 22
Joined: 7/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TermsConditions

And so he makes a deal with his inner demons. If he behaves well he enjoys her company. Anything less is to risk being expelled like Mephistopheles from the presence of the divine.

From my perspective of crystalline ignorance, the D/s aspect would seem to formalize and amplify his depravity. She is to lead; he to follow. Both know he requires her civilizing influence.

His actions are bad manners. In the absence of women men don’t really give a hang about manners. Look inside a locker room or a men’s dorm (you know you want to but don't say I didn't warn you. It's pretty gross.) :-) .

Manners and civilization are what a man endures for the privilege of being in the presence of a woman.

For God-only-knows-what reason she has deigned to take him on and try to keep him walking upright and keep him from wearing his pants backward.

He knows he is wrong and lives in a state of wrongness. Only her grace save him from his own wretchedness.

And so he makes a deal with his inner demons. If he behaves well he enjoys her company. Anything less is to risk being expelled like Mephistopheles from the presence of the divine.

(in reply to TermsConditions)

Post #: 53

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/5/2008 8:02:02 AM

Nikko1962

Posts: 31
Joined: 2/7/2007
Status: offline

I looked in my proper protocol handbook and didn't see the correct answer as to what the prefect response was. It's still a good question to ponder. Here's a thought or two.

Since it's a road trip, I'll expand it to something more and not so restrictive in variables.

Maybe when he was pumping the gas, he might have been preoccupied, as lovely as she is, about:

He had been planning this weekend for weeks. Trying to surprise her. "Oh, yeah, we'll just go for a long drive down the coast. Have a nice lunch and then back home". Only he had packed some of her clothes in a hidden suitcase in the trunk. He had reserved a nice hotel room in her favorite hotel. He had been paying attention to the other conversations and was remembering her thoughts and comments. So he might have been thinking:

Would the flowers that she liked be delivered to the hotel on time?
Would the flowers get there at the right moment to surprise her? The flowers had to be delivered at the specific time. Would they be fresh? Would they be Stargazer Lilies or some other generic lily?

Would they get the room that the hotel had promised?
He had driven 100 miles the weekend before to confirm that it had a view that he knew should would like.

How do I keep a straight face on the drive down? What if she starts to get tired and wants to go home before we get to the hotel? How do I convince her that 45 more minutes of driving won't be too much for her. What if she insists that we return home?

What if, what if, what if,.............

A hundred questions could be going through his mind. If he had to be "perfect" all the time or she would be "disappointed" then he's with the wrong woman. It's a relationship. It's a dance between the two people. He might be the greatest dancer in the world. While dancing, if he steps on her toe, is she disappointed in "him" as a man, or in the fact that the dance wasn't perfect. The two disaapointments are completely different.

My .02

_____________________________

Everything you want is on the other side of fear.

If you are going to hide in the haystack from me, at least make a little noise.

http://www.myspace.com/124184605

(in reply to AAkasha)

Post #: 54

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/5/2008 8:11:57 AM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
A) A submissive should be attentive enough to know to offer/ask such simple things like whether or not she'd like something to drink
B) A submissive does as told and is HAPPY to help with anything, but he is not a mind reader. A dominant woman should not be afraid to speak up if she wants something, that's why he likes dominant women - they say what they want!
C) A submissive should just go buy her the drink without even asking and bring it back to her whether she asked or not - he's always thinking about her.

A PERSON going into the gas station, while on a long road trip, should be POLITE enough to ask ther companion if they would like something to drink while they are inside. I dont see that as a Dominant/submissive thing, I see that as road trip manners. After the road trip Fox and I went on, and the one Angel and I have planned, it seems second nature that whenever one of us goes in to the rest room or pay for the gas, they ask the other if they would like something.
I have met quite a few subs who believe proactive service is "topping from the bottom" and assuming the know what the dominant would want and taking away the Dominants ability to direct. Fox knows that when we get up in the morning, I am going to want coffee. However, he asks EVERY morning simply ebacue he is worried about that one freak morning I might say no.
In the hypothetical, I think it was rude not to ask if she wanted something. Would hve ben more rude had he gotten himself something and not asked her. On the other hand if she wanted something, she should have spoken up before they left the gas station rather than sulking about his not asking and talking to him later about it. I personally would have made him stop at the next available place and go get me something, if I wanted it that bad, and let him know right then that I expected to be asked.

Sounds a little petty to be the basis of good sub/bad sub to me. But, its hypothetical, of course.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to AAkasha)

Post #: 55

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/5/2008 8:48:12 AM

ShaktiSama

Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TermsConditions
And so he makes a deal with his inner demons. If he behaves well he enjoys her company. Anything less is to risk being expelled like Mephistopheles from the presence of the divine.

"Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. Think'st thou that I, who saw the face of God and tasted the eternal joy of heaven, am not tormented with ten thousand hells in being deprived of everlasting bliss?"

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to TermsConditions)

Post #: 56

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/5/2008 10:22:16 AM

TermsConditions

Posts: 446
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline

ShaktiSama, You are a treasure.

I feared my Faustus allusion had gone unappreciated.

I truly believe terror of such torment exists in the heart of hearts of every real man in a deep relationship with a woman. She is his Eternal Joy and Everlasting Bliss to enjoy forever, until he screws up.

What more motivation than that does a guy need than eternal damnation? So schlep a Diet Coke back to the car if you know what's good for you

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: TermsConditions
And so he makes a deal with his inner demons. If he behaves well he enjoys her company. Anything less is to risk being expelled like Mephistopheles from the presence of the divine.

"Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. Think'st thou that I, who saw the face of God and tasted the eternal joy of heaven, am not tormented with ten thousand hells in being deprived of everlasting bliss?"

_____________________________

TnC
Married, Novice Subbish-Type Person
and rider of the Drama Llama.

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 57

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/5/2008 10:29:53 AM

TermsConditions

Posts: 446
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline

Thank you for your kind acknowledgment, QueensWay. We with the mis-matched chromosomes are little better than animals. Left to our own devices, the Angels of Our Better Nature would scarcely make the scene.

quote:

ORIGINAL: QueensWay

quote:

ORIGINAL: TermsConditions

And so he makes a deal with his inner demons. If he behaves well he enjoys her company. Anything less is to risk being expelled like Mephistopheles from the presence of the divine.

From my perspective of crystalline ignorance, the D/s aspect would seem to formalize and amplify his depravity. She is to lead; he to follow. Both know he requires her civilizing influence.

His actions are bad manners. In the absence of women men don’t really give a hang about manners. Look inside a locker room or a men’s dorm (you know you want to but don't say I didn't warn you. It's pretty gross.) :-) .

Manners and civilization are what a man endures for the privilege of being in the presence of a woman.

For God-only-knows-what reason she has deigned to take him on and try to keep him walking upright and keep him from wearing his pants backward.

He knows he is wrong and lives in a state of wrongness. Only her grace save him from his own wretchedness.

And so he makes a deal with his inner demons. If he behaves well he enjoys her company. Anything less is to risk being expelled like Mephistopheles from the presence of the divine.

_____________________________

TnC
Married, Novice Subbish-Type Person
and rider of the Drama Llama.

(in reply to QueensWay)

Post #: 58

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/5/2008 10:36:35 AM

ShaktiSama

Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TermsConditions

ShaktiSama, You are a treasure. I feared my Faustus allusion had gone unappreciated.

Heh. Nope, I've always been a Christopher Marlowe fan. I may not agree that men are inherently less civilized than women per se, but I do agree that the Islamic/Faustian version of damnation is particularly horrifying. To be in hell is to be exiled from the presence of love forever.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to TermsConditions)

Post #: 59

RE: Submissive mind readers and unrealistic femdoms - 6/8/2008 3:54:52 AM

khantengri

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/8/2008
Status: offline

Such a sub would not be a "bad" sub, but certainly not close to ideal for me.

I would prefer him to have some anticipatory abilities, however, I only expect him to show devotion towards learning to anticipate my demands. It is unlikely that I would unreasonable and simply expect him to know what I want.

(in reply to DominantJenny)

Post #: 60

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