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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/28/2005 5:52:10 PM   
girl4you2


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< Message edited by girl4you2 -- 11/14/2005 1:14:24 PM >

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/28/2005 9:34:51 PM   
Wolfie648


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quote:

2. Does anyone recognise "emotional intelligence" and if so, do you think it can exist apart from above-average IQ?


Yes (although I'm not sure I agree with it) and absolutely. A high IQ and an ability to deal with life are not necessarily connected. I once read a book (fiction) that mentioned 20 areas of genius that a human could have (they didn't list them all and I don't know if there are 20 or more or less bit it supports my statement) and just because someone is a genius in one area doesn't make them the genius of everything.

Taking an IQ test for the most part tests your mathematical and reasoning skills. Possibly some geometry/spatial depending on the test. At least from what I have come across.

D (owner of j)





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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/28/2005 9:37:23 PM   
Wolfie648


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quote:

think we are all blessed with certain gifts, and the IQ test leaves so much of real "intelligence" untested and unconsidered.


100% agreed. Another way of saying some of what I posted in relpy to your other post on this topic.

D (owner of j)

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/28/2005 11:07:04 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Certainly there is a place for people of below average intelligence. Just probably not with me. I think it would be difficult for me to try an make such a relationship work over the long term without her eventually feeling excluded from large parts of my life.


I absolutely agree with you on this. As a submissive I couldn't submit to someone who wasn't my intellectual equal or (preferably) superior. I need someone who can challenge me intellectually. To do that they have to be able to out-think me.

The same dynamic is in play when it comes to people who are younger than myself. Someone in their twenties just isn't going to be able to hold my interest for long. (And this goes for friendships as well.) The gap between their experience and understanding of the world and mine is just too great. They have just begun to understand the world, for the most part. (Although there is a tendency to think you know everything at that age - I remember it well.)

Cin

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/29/2005 4:51:03 AM   
Focus50


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Which leads me to ask, when can we ever say we actually KNOW something without being chided for it?

Considering that, as a female slave, you've probably posted more in "Ask a Master" than anyone, this gripe sounds just a tad hollow. That or it isn't intelliegence that brought about the alleged chiding.... lol

Focus.

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/29/2005 5:01:05 AM   
pinkpleasures


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quote:

I think some man (probably more than will admit) are intimidated by someone that may be smarter than them. While they say they want smart woman, reality is they suffer with a inferiority complex that causes issues in the relationship. As for the D’s, I think this places a tremendous burden on the slave to make extra effort in “keeping her head down” so to speak.

I would love to have the smartest woman on the planet be interested in me. But whats the odds of that…

Just my thoughts
TearCollector


As the smartest woman on the planet, i wonder what Tearcollector is about..perhaps i'm interested...ROFLMAO. (i am a real blonde; very dim about machines and geo and such, LOL.)

pinkpleasures

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/29/2005 8:37:59 AM   
pinkpleasures


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quote:

Speaking only for myself, I expect a balance between intelligence and the ability to accept that I may do it my way even when she thinks I'm wrong. I value her opinion and judgement but I still sometimes choose a path she disagrees with. At times she gets frustrated and accuses me of "not listening" when the truth is that I've listened, weighed the options and made my own choice.
I do understand, however, why it would be frustrating for her, or anyone, if it happens regularly.
Timothy


i fully concur Sir. The experience of being heard is fulfilling in itself; but (IMO) submission dictates the Man makes the final decision (or Domme, as the case may be). i have seen profiles in which a Man states he lacks certain skills and wants a subbie or slave to provide them; such as being organized or handling finances. Frankly such profiles do not attract me. Although i plan to be a helpmate and would do anything in my power to enhance my Man's well-being, comfort and joy, i want a Man who has already mastered handling His own affairs.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 10/29/2005 8:38:56 AM >

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/29/2005 8:42:42 AM   
pinkpleasures


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quote:

Perhaps a Master should define the level and type of intelligence he is looking for. Does he want a lass who is a member or qualified to be a member of Mensa? Would he prefer some one with lets say a Masters Degree? Is he more likely to chose a girl who has a good general education and can turn her hand to most things and do them well on a daily basis. Is he looking for a lass with whom he may enjoy philisophical or even political debates? Maybe he simply wants a girl who has street smarts. Just saying you want someone who is intelligent still leaves many huge questions, especially as no two people have the same idea of what intelligence is.

Perhaps the more honest question to ask Masters and Mistresses may be; "Why don't you want an intelligent sub/slave?"

IronBear


i fully agree that intelligence has a myriad of versions, and a small slice is measured by IQ tests. i also agree that to form a bond, there must be some connectivity on intelligence....even if means a very smart Man chooses a girl who is "street smart" only.

pinkpleasures

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/29/2005 1:56:58 PM   
hedonisticToy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Which leads me to ask, when can we ever say we actually KNOW something without being chided for it?


According to Zen principles...never.

Cin

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/31/2005 7:25:44 AM   
JerryInTampa


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quote:

i don't understand this at all. what they want and what they then expect seem to be at odds. why ask for a woman with a brain, but then not want to hear anything of free thought?
Why would I want an athlete that didn't wrrestle with me?

That said, since I like free thought, I don't see the problem.

Why would I want to subjigate free thought? Why would I want to take an intelligent woman and put her to a meaningless task? Why would I want to take a powerful woman and put her naked at my feet? Why would I want to take a strong woman and make her helpless?

Because that's submission. A stupid woman cannot submit her intelligence to me; a weak woman cannot submit her will. It's far better if there's something to actually give. As Jack Nicholson said: "Nothing like getting a blowjob from a woman you have to salute in the morning"

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/31/2005 10:55:11 AM   
WayHome


Posts: 237
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Status: offline 		Scary fact of the day:
Half of all Americans are dumber than the average American.


I love this thread. The subject of intelligence is such an emotionally charged one in our culture and yet here we have rational discussion on it.

Sorry to respond to several different lines of conversation in one post but I cam in late.


Emotional intelligence and the myth of g.
"G" stands for generalized intelligence and is what most people are actually thinking of when they say "IQ" or "intelligence" but professionals in the field argue often whether or not such a thing even exists. It is clear that there are several different kinds of intelligence but not everyone agrees on exactly how many types there are and what they are. There are models with as few as three types or as many as 14. I believe in many intelligences:
Logical processing (most forms of math, formal operations)
Spatial sense (including 3D visualization and geographic awareness)
Interpersonal intelligence (social Q)
IntRApersonal intelligence (EQ, or emotional intelligence)
Visual processing
Linguistic processing
Kinesthetic intelligence
Musical intelligence
There are probably others as well though within an individual the crrelations between the different areas tend to be .8 or greater....

Do smart people say they are smart?
A few years ago was having an argument with a teenager (the nephew of a good friend) who said, "Don't you realize I'm a genius" Sadly it was not a joke. His self-image like that of his mother's was anchored firmly around his "gifted" status. I said to him:"If you were half as smart as you think you are, then you would realize that's a stupid thing to say." When he asked me what I meant I simply replied, "How many times have you been beat up since you started high school?" It took him a while but he eventually caught my meaning. Truly bright people learn early in life that most of the time it's not good to even show just how bright you are and it's NEVER a good idea to try and tell people. People more than one standard definition from the mean in either direction are generally relegated to making at least some effort to hide their differences in mixed company.

What to do with a girl smarter than me
I can honestly say I value my interactions with every person I have met (male or female) who is actually "smarter" than me. That's not to say people who know more about a particular subject or have more education, but the small minority of people who genuinely possess extreme intelligence.

Do you need intelligence in a sub?
Well I used to think so. I used to think that intelligence was an absolute requirement for anyone I wanted an intimate relationship with. Or at the very least a person who had a good education. I certainly find intelligence sexy. But that was the old days before I came to the world of BDSM and accepted the basic concept of inequality not being a bad thing. Now I realize I can have valuable interactions with people of all levels of intelligence so long as I am free to speak my mind without fear of offending. I've learned that it's ok to interact with another adult and take the role of mentor/teacher/whatever, where it's accepted that equality is not needed. I've since enjoyed several subs of "average" intelligence and far less education. Largely because they appreciated me and I had the very unusual experience of being completely comfortable and open with someone from a very different place in the spectrum.


Leto





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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/31/2005 12:21:33 PM   
MineToControl


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Status: offline 		In my case I do prefer an intelligent sub, meaning that I am not attracted to doormats. I think the concept scares some Sub. When I seek an intelligent sub I am not asking for her to take control, just to be able to express herself, carry on her side of the conversations, be willing to express opinions. I can always put a stop to it if she becomes carried away!!


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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/31/2005 4:26:38 PM   
CitizenCane


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WayHome

Scary fact of the day:
Half of all Americans are dumber than the average American.



Leto




Nah, only 49 %. But I must admit, it often seems like more.


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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 10/31/2005 8:14:25 PM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		A dog can do a few things like fetch and bring your newspaper or slippers. But they are not very smart I think we can all agree.
To truly serve completely, a slave or sub needs intelligence. A good slave/sub will use her intelligence to be proactive in her service. To anticipate and learn how best to serve her Master. To offer her experience or viewpoint when she understands it is helpful. And to be smart enough to understand when her Master chooses to go another way. That takes some thinking in my opinion. Which I think most Masters do value. The others may be better off with a dog.

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 11/1/2005 8:38:57 AM   
CitizenCane


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

A dog can do a few things like fetch and bring your newspaper or slippers. But they are not very smart I think we can all agree.
To truly serve completely, a slave or sub needs intelligence. A good slave/sub will use her intelligence to be proactive in her service. To anticipate and learn how best to serve her Master. To offer her experience or viewpoint when she understands it is helpful. And to be smart enough to understand when her Master chooses to go another way. That takes some thinking in my opinion. Which I think most Masters do value. The others may be better off with a dog.


I wonder what it means to 'truly serve completely'? My own needs and desires are sufficiently complex, varied and intense that I really don't expect one person to meet them all, and I doubt that any thoughtful person has that expectation. One strategy of dealing with this is to try and get all that you can from one person, but I suspect this is a formula for disappointment and resentment. Another possibility is to simply ask, 'what can this person do in my life?', and enjoy whatever that may be. If there are needs that they can't meet, meeting them somewhere else is a reasonable strategy- the alternative is settling for less than you need or desire.

I agree that dogs can't do everything (and I'm not interested in everything that they can do)- but neither can people, not even 'intelligent subs'. I see no reason to choose between dog and sub- better to appreciate both for what they can do well. Much uhappiness comes from discussing religion with dogs- just look at Son of Sam- but mine is a lot of fun to take running, to cuddle with on the couch, and even to train. I will say, however, that it was harder to teach her to sit than it was my sub. Probably more work than it's worth to teach her to make dinner.

By the same token, it's really not rewarding to discuss string theory with my girl. She has no interest in martial arts. Her understanding of art is in a very different place than mine. Should I dump her? Should I seek someone just like me- but submissive?
Now, oddly enough, my girl happens to be quite bright- if CollarMe follows the norms, she's smarter than eight or nine out of every ten people here. She has a wide range of interests and knowledge that happen to be different from mine. I'm not opposed to intelligence, or afraid of it- my point is simply that it isn't what makes a D/s relationship work. Or any other intimate relationship, for that matter. Neither what works nor what doesn't work well in our relationship are a function of her intelligence.

I see a lot of posturing and egotism about this subject- 'I'm smart so doms are afraid of me/can't handle me,' 'You can tell I'm smart because my sub is smart,' etc, etc. It doesn't strike me as very insightful.




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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 11/1/2005 7:20:43 PM   
Sub03


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Status: offline 		Why wouldnt a Dom want an intelligent sub?? Do you really think a Dom would want someone that cant contribute to an intelligent conversation?? That cant hand out different play ideas?? And what about when your not playing and just talking?? If you dont have some kind of intelligence how do you contribute to the conversation??

Me and my Dom talk all the time, about different ideas for play, my fantasies and just about any other topic that comes up. Remember Doms are human too and though they may not always take your point of view they like to hear it. They dont want a doormat that does only as they say and needs to be directed every moment of every day. Subs need a brain too.

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 11/2/2005 1:17:49 AM   
Jacques1000


Posts: 273
Joined: 10/30/2005
Status: offline 		I suspect empresschaos may have astutely identified one of the key points here. I have always found there has been a tendency for the relationship between a superior and a subordinate to be too easily dichotomised and too easily be made black and white. A fuzzy, speckly kind of discoloured gray is more my own experience. Therefore, I do not believe we should view the Master/Slave relationship unproblematically; as a neat little dyad. There is a degree of reciprocity and information sharing involved, and I believe both the Dom and the Sub negotiate this space in a kind courtship ritual that would make butterflies blush. It is far from one way traffic, in my case.

For my part, I prefer some one who is extremely intelligent because I am stimulated and inspired by extremely intelligent and creative people. I encourage a sub to contribute fully to myriad of discussions. She acts as sounding board, catalyst and accelerant. Her playful machiavallian streaks might encourage me to devise and deploy new and delicious ways of foiling her. I like that challenge--the constant frisson with the onus on me to maintain the upperhand. At the this point it is a battle of wits. I have been 'out-thought' by some fiendshly clever subs, but I see this as being useful for my own fuller understanding and a chevron of my falliblity. And yes, secretly, I ocassionally eallyu enjoy being vanquished even if inevitably it does not detract from an ultimate assertion of will in some suitably rewarding way.

The intelligent sub increases the pool of potentials. She also helps to ensure that her Master does not become jaded, formulaeic and complacent. I have also found that subs who enjoyed mock attempts at resistance and revolt and brought out the best in me tended to very clever. They appeal to a thinking man's greatest vanity--his intellect. There is a very fine line between inducement and accesssion, between following and being lead. I think a bright, vivacious sub is also more likely to keep her/his Master 'entertained'--that is mentally and physically enlivened. In a lot of ways, the roles are much more synergistic and symbiotic than crudely differentiated by power. Though there are disinequalities in power, there is no reason why this should be so intellectually ?

Moreover, I do not expect a sub to be acquiescent, subserviant and deferential 24/7/365. I encourage and reward a fiesty sub where it is likely to strengthen and fuse the bond between us. If I wanted to talk about post-emancipatory Marxist discourse, Gauguin's Tahitian period, the cultural impact of The Smiths, or notions of gynocentricity in the writings of Adrienne Rich it is comforting to know that an intelligent sub could contribute to these discussions and further enchant me with her considerable knowledge in other areas. My education has been greatly enhanced my generous and sagacious partners.

Of course, no one wants to be cerebral all the time and in those situations feigning it is just fine for me. However, it is nice to have the choice.

I hope that has will be helpful to someone.

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 11/2/2005 3:06:42 AM   
MasterLark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

i respectfully ask the following questions:

1. What is meant when anyone says they want intelligence in their partner? Do they mean "above-average intelligence"? Educational or career success?

I prefer a college grad and/or career success.

2. Does anyone recognise "emotional intelligence" and if so, do you think it can exist apart from above-average IQ?

Yes, emotional intelligence is very important and has zip to do with academic degrees.

3. What of people of normal intelligence? Are they attractive to you?

They can be; again it depends on her emotional intelligence.

4. Is there a place for a person with below-average intelligence in BDSM?

Certainly but that person probably would not click with me but may click with another.

I would add an "intelligent" slave would pursue the path of insight into her own submission and enslavement and that is very important to me.

pinkpleasures
quote:

i respectfully ask the following questions:

1. What is meant when anyone says they want intelligence in their partner? Do they mean "above-average intelligence"? Educational or career success?

2. Does anyone recognise "emotional intelligence" and if so, do you think it can exist apart from above-average IQ?

3. What of people of normal intelligence? Are they attractive to you?

4. Is there a place for a person with below-average intelligence in BDSM?

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RE: why do Masters say they want intelligent subs? - 11/2/2005 4:54:41 PM   
Jacques1000


Posts: 273
Joined: 10/30/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Iron,
This is a very interesting concept (not to mention appealing). My personal experience is that such arbitrary cuts offs, though enormously appealing, can be disappointing too. I could waffle on about playful intelligence, but I suspect most will know what i mean. There is also a complex interplay between the confidence a sub displays. I like confident people, partly because at first, I was conscious of the psychological damage that might ensue if they were not. Also, I think a Master should want the best for his/her sub, and want to education them, or him/herself accordingly.

Suffice to say in New Zealand, it has not be a question over which I have pained very often. [Or more fairly, as often as one might like).

A PhD does not guarantee intelligence, and it certainly does guarantee that they have the skills to be a respected and cherished sub. However, the smarter the people involved the more they learn from each other--has been my experience. MJ

I think the ambiguity is half the fun.

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