RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 1:13:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

It's mildly tragic when people imply that those in poverty cannot get an education,



You're getting ahead of yourself, CelticLord. There is nothing in my post that should have prompted your reply.

Out of curiosity, what exactly renders you an authoirty on this subject?




Aynne -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 1:22:15 PM)

 
Exactly. You cannot circumvent law by making an agreement between you and the 'employee/volunteer" no matter how much you both okay it. Thanks Alumbrado for wording that more succinctly than I did.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne

celticlord, I agree with part of that. I also hire people in busier seasonal bursts for 3 or 4 weeks as seasonal labor and according to the labor laws in Maine and if they provide a copy of their own liability insurance ( required by law) I also give them 1099's as opposed to W-2's. That is not the same as people volunteering for me. By the way, no one yet has answered what happens when tht "volunteer" gets hurt doing unpaid labor for you, whether you are EIN, sole porp, or incorporated. I know what happens, and it is gonna suck wayyyy worse than actually paying the kid minumum wage and playing by the rules. 

And this statement "Why is it ok?  Because if both sides agree to the exchange, it's a fair contract by definition. ".  WHile in premise I might even agree with it to a point, the labor laws and  the IRS does not. Not by a long shot. There are never only two sides when dealing with the IRS or the US dep't of labor. It is their side that holds that most weight. If you don't want to abide by the laws required then don't start a business.   

You cannot have "volunteers" either. This site is invaluable for clearing up misconceptions. You and your worker may agree to work for 4 bucks an hour. He can sign a contract stating that. Means nothing. You have to abide by federal labor laws, they exist for a reason. I hate many of them, however, I can't go around them.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/flsa/




It is Contract law 101 that there cannot be a valid and binding contract to do something illegal...like work under the table...calling someone a 'volunteer' who has produced work for your benefit is just that, working under the table. Same for 'agreeing' to work under the minimum wage, or work without OSHA compliance, and so forth.

And should that 'volunteer' hurt themselves, the persons who benefitted from their labor would be facing lots of questions over unpaid monies...should that' volunteer' hurt someone else, they would still be considered an agent of the business owner who would then be liable.

Now run those volunteers though the schools, and call them 'interns', and you may be on to something.

Now, do the violations above happen? No doubt...and I wonder how many of those who think they are being clever to ignore the labor laws, rant about illegals...




celticlord2112 -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 1:26:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
You're getting ahead of yourself, CelticLord. There is nothing in my post that should have prompted your reply.

Indicating that "get an education" is a product of "Middle Class opportunity" (your words, mind you, not mine) positions education and the opportunity for education within those attributes of "the Middle Class".  That much is simple semantics.  Those living in poverty are most assuredly not within said "Middle Class" -- thus are bereft of said attributes, ergo do not have an opportunity for an education.  Certainly within the United States, this is not the case, and I tend to suspect it is the case in the UK as well.

I did not "get ahead of myself".  My reply was the apt and appropriate response.  In this regard you are in error.

quote:


Out of curiosity, what exactly renders you an authoirty on this subject?

The fact that I worked my way through college as an armed security guard, with nobody paying a damn dime but me.




NorthernGent -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 1:36:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Indicating that "get an education" is a product of "Middle Class opportunity"



You're completely missing the point.

You have to value education to desire an education. As a rule, Middle-Class parents will drum home the value of education and the associated opportunity; while it is insulting to suggest Working-Class families are devoid of this approach, it is far more common among the Middle-Classes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The fact that I worked my way through college as an armed security guard, with nobody paying a damn dime but me.



From where did this approach materialise?




celticlord2112 -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 1:43:17 PM)

quote:

it is insulting to suggest Working-Class families are devoid of this approach,

I quite agree.  That's why I take issue with you making the suggestion.
quote:

From where did this approach materialise?

From the Marines.  Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.




kittinSol -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 1:48:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

From the Marines.  Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.



And there we have it all in one, neatly wrapped up little package. Thank you: how did we survive without your sound advice [:D]?




NorthernGent -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 1:48:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

it is insulting to suggest Working-Class families are devoid of this approach,

I quite agree.  That's why I take issue with you making the suggestion.



We both realise this isn't the suggestion, of course.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

From the Marines.  Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.



You joined the Marines when you were 14? Why would you want to embark on a career? What did your parents have to say on the matter?




celticlord2112 -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 2:37:38 PM)

quote:

You joined the Marines when you were 14? Why would you want to embark on a career? What did your parents have to say on the matter?

I joined at 18 right out of high school.  Don't know how it works in the UK, but in the US you don't enlist until 18.

Wasn't thinking "career"--was thinking more like "get the hell out of Dodge".

As for my parents, they didn't think highly of the idea.  I didn't (and don't) think highly of them, so it all balanced out.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 3:40:11 PM)

quote:

And there we have it all in one, neatly wrapped up little package.

What can I say, kittin?  It is the order of things, after all.





servantheart -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 3:42:35 PM)

[:D]




kittinSol -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 3:43:20 PM)

Once you unwrap the stuff, however... humongous mess.

Then, it is in the disorder of things.

C'est la vie, innit?




celticlord2112 -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 3:54:28 PM)

quote:

Once you unwrap the stuff, however... humongous mess.

Hardly.  Once you unwrap...start doing...start living...humongous success.

Or would you prefer Yoda?

"Try not.  Do.  Or do not.  There is no Try."




kittinSol -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 3:56:34 PM)

What great references you have [8D] .




hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 4:03:49 PM)

Worker's Comp is elective in Oklahoma like it is in Texas.  As a sole proprietorship, I don't feel like it's something that I need.  I have both business liability and homeowner's that would cover him (as a guest in my home, where my business is run) should something happen to him due to accident.  I'm damned unlikely to sue Myself for an accident - wouldn't make much sense to do so, would it?  
 
What the kid wants Is to learn.  He came to me and suggested this arrangement with his mother's consent after talking to her about it.  (His dad wasn't consulted because his dad isn't part of his life.)  His mom actually Appreciates the fact that someone in a better position than her is willing to do something with him.  I didn't go to them and suggest an apprenticeship, and when he broached the subject I told him flat out that the business isn't making enough money to pay him.  He's ok with that and Asked to do this, because money isn't the point of him being here - learning and experience ARE.  He spends about 6 or 7 hours a week with me.  He has not been allowed yet to make anything that gets offered for sale because until he has learned more About my business - I can't guarentee that what he's made is up to the standards that I set.  I maintain a pretty high bar as far as standards go, and it takes time and practice to reach that bar - practice that he wouldn't be able to afford the supplies for at home.  He isn't under a contract or formal apprenticeship program, so legally I guess I shouldn't even refer to him as an "apprentice".  On the Strictly legal side, he's a teenager who hangs out in my shop with parental consent, learning things under my guidance, and gets his hands dirty with the practical Doing of things.  Not much difference there from a teenager who enjoys hanging out with a shadetree mechanic and learns how to work on cars that way - but who isn't getting paid to turn a wrench. He is a LOT more to me than "free labor" despite what you'd like to think.  He's my godson, my friend, and a good kid who revels in seizing opportunities.  I do a lot more with him than simply teach him a skill.  I tutor him in school classes that he's having trouble with, I give him advice on practical issues in life when he asks for it, and I'm someone that he knows he can turn to when he's down about school or the process of growing up or life in general.  I'm sure as hell not going to quit teaching him - or letting him gain proficiency in the skills I teach him - simply because someone gets a bug up their rump about it based on their personal dislike of me.
 
It can't be both ways, folks.  We can't whine about the plight of the poor, and then turn around and rail because an opportunity is being offered to help someone ultimately not be poor.  We don't live in a black and white world - as you yourselves have been quick to point out concerning the circumstances of those who are poor during this very thread.  You want me, and others, to acknowledge that it's not all one way or another - but at the same time expect to reserve to yourself the right to view things as either one way or another?   You wanna call something hypocritical - THAT is hypocritical.   And just as an FYI - I'm not a republican, nor am I a member of the GOP - I'm actually Registered as a Democrat, since Oklahoma law only allows those 2 parties to vote in Primaries, otherwise I would be registered as Independant.  I  have never and will never vote based on party line for ANY political party - I vote my conscience dependant upon the issues and a candidate's established record.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 4:05:07 PM)

Well, I figure if a Zen Master (Wu Kwang) can quote Yoda, why not?

Truth is not dependent on source.  It is merely truth.

But enough of a hi-jack.  The truth is that one succeeds by doing, not by trying, and the key to the doing is to improvise, adapt, and overcome whatever obstacles are there.

For any desiring to improve their lot in live, that's how it's done.




kittinSol -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 4:07:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

that's how it's done.



A new one ?




celticlord2112 -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 4:12:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

that's how it's done.



A new one ?

New?  No.  True?  Yes.




Lockit -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 4:16:48 PM)

I really hope (honestly) that many around here never have life 'happen' to them.  A little something that they could not control... like a car accident with someone else at fault, or a genetic disease that hits right at the wrong time or an illness that could not be prevented... you know... something you have absolutly nothing to do with except you are alive and at the right place at the right time, all wrong for you of course.

Because if life does happen to 'happen' to you, you would have a very rude awakinging if you think that those taxes you pay will provide 'in time' for the services they were taken from you for.  Try on 4-6 years to get most average disability cases through.  Try the welfare office where you can see children born here in the states to illegal parents getting medical assistance when an adult with no children in the home, born an American can't get medical services in most states.  Try no one willing to hire you because you were honest about your health, knowing fully that you would miss work and you didn't want to lie to them to get a job, only to hurt their business because you could not actually do the job, but had to because you needed to pay rent and eat. 

Ignorance of some people in not bettering their lives and living on the backs of tax payers is something I agree, should be looked at and by all rights complained about.  But... to assume that all are poor by choice or bad choices, is in itself a marker for me to assume that someone has not a clue!  Come with me and meet some of the people I have known and worked with.  Come listen to a suicide call because they are so ill they cannot do anything and the pain is too much, along with not getting medical care or a return on the taxes they paid most their lives and have no way to survive.  Let me introduce you to former business owners, parents, children and on and on... then argue the point that most who are poor deserve to be. lol.... Why do I bother? lol




servantheart -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 4:19:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


The root of the problem is poverty of aspiration, which is dictated by values drummed home at every turn.

It's mildly amusing to hear the "get an education" chorus; they fail to realise that they speak with their mindset, which is shaped through the vehicle of Middle-Class parental guidance and opportunity.



Ok, I don't know why you think that only people who were told by their middle class parents their entire lives that they need to get an education are the only ones who are capable of aspiring to higher things.  Can you possibly be any more insulting to those whose parents didn't drill that idea home at every turn and yet went out and got an education?  You are insinuating that, as an entire group, they don't have the intelligence, or the wherewithal (with a bit of research, the money is easily found) to decide to do better for themselves.  Many of the people I have gone to school with definitely did not come from the type of background you claim is absolutely necessary to get an education.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Being Poor... ( discuss ) (6/9/2008 4:34:22 PM)

quote:

really hope (honestly) that many around here never have life 'happen' to them. A little something that they could not control... like a car accident with someone else at fault, or a genetic disease that hits right at the wrong time or an illness that could not be prevented... you know... something you have absolutly nothing to do with except you are alive and at the right place at the right time, all wrong for you of course.

Life is bound to happen.  The challenge is always choosing how to respond when it does.

I do not criticize anyone who finds themselves impoverished.  I am, however, amazed at a great many who choose to remain there.




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