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RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/10/2008 8:47:29 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missunderstood88

If the essay referenced in the OP had been written as simply D/s, then yes, you would have a perfectly valid point, but it wasn't. It was written exclusively for the point of view of the majority, which strikes me as peculiar since the practice of BDSM is purported to include a vast array of interests and orientations. What do you think?



The essay was clearly written for the het female submissive. An essay written for a gay male submissive would surely have contained appropriate pronouns for that audience. That other orientations or genders were not included in an essay which was not intended for them shouldn't be cause for offense. That debate, however, is probably not the right one for this thread. The content of the essay itself can easily get lost in that debate.

I have other problems with the piece. There's a bit too much One True Way for my taste and it comes off as very preachy. It speaks down to submissives as if they are children rather than full grown adults capable of making discerning choices. For anyone who has spent even a small bit of time researching, it doesn't say anything unusual or unique which should garner it much attention. I disagreed with a few of her factual statements as well. Gross generalizations are rarely accurate and to purport something general as an absolute truth is going to cause me to question their overall credibility. If the piece had been written by some average joe who hadn't done the marketing that Midori has accomplished for herself, I wouldn't give it two seconds of thought. Truly, I didn't think the piece was very well written, I didn't think the advice was all that helpful. Just generic, mostly common sense and some things which, I found, were just out right inaccurate. On a scale of 1 - 10, I'd rate it about a 4. I can sum up the entire essay in a single sentence.

"If you are or have found someone who is a good person outside of D/s, chances are you and they will remain good people inside of D/s and vice versa."

Did I miss anything?



_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to missunderstood88)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/10/2008 8:53:22 PM   
missunderstood88


Posts: 37
Joined: 2/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

missunderstood, you are demonstrating your ignorance of who Midori is. If anyone has earned the right to talk that way without being judged, it's her. It's like saying Margaret Cho is not gay-friendly because she also fucks men.

That's a fair cop. However, I'm not criticizing the writer, so much as what she's written. Regardless of her ability, and I do not doubt you one little bit when you say that she's done her due, she's nevertheless done a raw deal in this one essay. That's all. It's not about her and her body of work. It's just about this one part of it.

Regards,
M88

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/10/2008 8:59:11 PM   
missunderstood88


Posts: 37
Joined: 2/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I can assure you knowing the woman a bit that the idea that she is being insensitive to gender issues would rouse a huge round of laughter from her.

I edited the rest of your post from the above quote for brevity and neatness, but it was worth reading and I enjoyed it. Thanks for taking the time to explain. It sounds to me like I'd enjoy knowing her. Without knowing the author's background, it did sound one way to me, but I see now that no harm was intended, whether by overt or inadvertent omission.

Regards,
M88

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/10/2008 9:02:21 PM   
missunderstood88


Posts: 37
Joined: 2/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

"If you are or have found someone who is a good person outside of D/s, chances are you and they will remain good people inside of D/s and vice versa."

Did I miss anything?

I think you nailed it. I think the problem with essays like this one* is that the people who need to read them won't, and the people who do read them already know the content well themselves.




(* No, not that. That part of the discussion is over. ;) )

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/10/2008 9:03:43 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missunderstood88
I'm not criticizing the writer, so much as what she's written.

No.  Celeste/Bita is criticizing what she has written, and Celeste is right, as usual.  You are allowing the chip on your shoulder to fall into your eye.  If your "defense" of nonstandard sexuality makes even the leatherdyke say "Wow," you might want to re-examine where this is coming from.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to missunderstood88)
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RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/10/2008 9:03:52 PM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missunderstood88


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

missunderstood, you are demonstrating your ignorance of who Midori is. If anyone has earned the right to talk that way without being judged, it's her. It's like saying Margaret Cho is not gay-friendly because she also fucks men.

That's a fair cop. However, I'm not criticizing the writer, so much as what she's written. Regardless of her ability, and I do not doubt you one little bit when you say that she's done her due, she's nevertheless done a raw deal in this one essay. That's all. It's not about her and her body of work. It's just about this one part of it.

Regards,
M88


And if she wrote the next work entirely in Daddy /boi butch lesbian terms to the exclussion of all others and the following one in M2m terms, and the next to....... Would each of those articles be judged as equally giving slight?

One can be fair by shifting the terms each article, or within single articles or by calculating the percentages of each in your audience and figuring out which terms to use based on something along the lines of an affirmative action formula.
Or one can take a look at the general audience of the site the article is written for and use the predominent term for the sites demographics.

Beleive me when she writes something for On Our Backs she's not going to be likely to use Het pronoun choices.


Edited to add I don't want this to look like I'm clubbing you to death like a baby seal. really I don't. LOL


< Message edited by Archer -- 6/10/2008 9:06:21 PM >

(in reply to missunderstood88)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/10/2008 9:07:06 PM   
roughleather


Posts: 232
Joined: 11/11/2004
Status: offline 		That's Midori giving the basics for the online crowd in hopes of giving them a clue.

Midori is big on communication, both verbal and non-verbal. She herself has the timing for stand-up comedy. She's a mischevious sadist; she likes putting subs in a position where she can make them jump. If you get the chance to see one of her demos, do so. I'm in SF, and have run into her many times over the years.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/10/2008 9:10:39 PM   
missunderstood88


Posts: 37
Joined: 2/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Edited to add I don't want this to look like I'm clubbing you to death like a baby seal. really I don't. LOL



It's all good. I figure you probably were still composing this post after I'd already completed my earlier one. :)

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/10/2008 9:24:27 PM   
mztresn0w


Posts: 174
Joined: 1/12/2008
Status: offline 		I can only agree with you, Archer. I was lucky enough to meet Midori one time at an APEX meeting here in Phoenix. She is an amazing person. Few people make a lasting impression on me. But she was one that I shall never forget. If people can't get past the pronouns and see the message no matter what their gender or role in this lifestyle is then it is their loss.

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(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/10/2008 10:01:52 PM   
DarkVictory


Posts: 247
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline 		It's okay really... some people so throughly cling to being a completely uniform, standard, compliant component in the so-called radical movements, (name one... feminism, fascism, socialism, the boy scouts) that they lose the ability to think for themselves outside the defined contextualization of that 'movement'.  I saw this at work on another board where the writer defined 'rape' in a radical feminist context, and then basically called every single male poster on the thread a rapist because he had the gall to have an opinion, which was of course being *inserted* into the thread (no, I'm not kidding) -- and was therefore *rape*.  Any attempt to change a woman's mind about anything under any circumstances, by a man, is rape.  etc.

My comparison is simple enough.  The trap of the 'dialectic' - or the normative trans-valuation that's inherent in the radicalization (by definition) forces the exclusion of any content that disasgrees with that context.  That's why socialist russian dialectic was utterly unable to learn from them massive drubbing their economy got, year after year.  This is why 'fresh' radicalism turns into dogma so quickly.

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RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/10/2008 10:13:08 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		~ Fast Reply ~

I must confess, I was disappointed.  For years I have heard wonderful accolaids about Midori, but I haven't ever read anything by her up until now.  So I eagerly clicked on the link, hoping to find a wealth of amazing information to ponder.  I finished the article thinking, "That's it?" 

Yes, much of her advice was decent, but it was mostly just surface level kind of stuff that I've seen on a lot of other websites.  It was all carbs and no meat!  Add to that, there were several "absolute" types of statements that had me wondering why this woman seems to be the goddess of most things BDSM.  Maybe she has great "scening techniques".  I'm not knocking her, as I understand there must be a good reason she is so respected, but I think almost anyone on this forum could have written that particular article, and some would have done much better.  I applaud her intentions, but I didn't walk away from the article feeling like it was worth recommending.  To each their own views, however.



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Good is the enemy of great.

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RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/10/2008 10:39:25 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I hadn't read Midori's piece and I just reread the entire thread to see if I missed anything and while I don't think I did, sure seems a hell of a lot of others did.

A LESBIAN woman living in SAN FRANCISCO who plays at all women Dyke events gets black marks because a tiny short essay, one of hundreds, by a woman who has written at least two books that I know of, isn't written in some stupid ass he/she/it/they/we/them/us/LGBYTORESYLS format?  SERIOUS? 

Per the above, an essay with a few hundred words gets pissed on because it didn't include the entire pantheon of possibilities?  What the fuck do you expect?  And frankly, considering the drama posted every day about "does he have the right to cut off my breast and force my sister to eat it" crap we see every day here, I can't see that it is hurting anything.

People, read the first couple lines.

quote:

  Are you a woman seeking to submit in a D/s relationship? Or maybe you've been exploring a bit with partners, in flesh and digital form 


The essay wasn't meant as the grand unifying theory of BDSM!!!!!!!!

If we are going to bitch at something, lets find something actually WORTHY of bitching about like how pompous and arrogant I am, or how badly we treat left handed trans gendered elk or something.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/11/2008 1:00:27 AM   
StormsSlave


Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline 		I think it's interesting how this thread was so quickly hi-jacked by the BDSM version of political correctness.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/11/2008 6:01:19 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		that is not entirely true.  all people are wired different. Tons of factors provide this fact that not every person  is wired the same. We might have the same likes. everyone is truely unto them selves their own persona 

< Message edited by LATEXBABY64 -- 6/11/2008 6:08:19 AM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/11/2008 8:17:40 AM   
mandalic


Posts: 3
Joined: 8/20/2007
Status: offline 		As one of the admins on the website in which that was posted, and as the person who actually put that piece on the site I want to say a few things.

1) The link the OP provided was a link to ONE of many blog posts Midori has written for that specific website. The section that is linked to is for us to post articles and featured blogs, which that piece is. She has various other essays on that site which can be found HERE if you would like to read more of her writing.

2) That essay was an idea that she had to write about a specific topic directed at specific people. There is no need for her to appeal to the masses or the minorities. She has no obligation to make everyone happy. Her advice can however be taken across the board and doesn't have to only apply to one type of person, no matter how she wrote it.

3) Because she actually gives a shit about people and the lifestyle she is a figurehead in, she wanted to share what she knows and what wisdom she has. Sure, it's basic information to some, sure many of us who are involved in the lifestyle know this information already, but there are those who don't and there ARE those who have been helped by reading this piece.

Advice like this can be translated to many people, of every orientation and gender and role. If you have not gained anything by reading it, then move along, it just means it wasn't for you. If you are offended by her lack of using the specific labels that you want that represent you, and you feel ostricised and demand equalness, well maybe you should realize that by pointing out the fact that you're different is what makes you different. Open minded people don't care about labels, they are words to use to help explain and describe things, if you're going to be offended by not being included and you think it is an attack on whatever 'minority' you subscribe to then you're only furthering the cycle of descrimination. If you really want to be equal stop seeing yourself as different. Also in case you've all forgot we're all a minority in this.


(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/11/2008 10:07:58 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I hadn't read Midori's piece and I just reread the entire thread to see if I missed anything and while I don't think I did, sure seems a hell of a lot of others did.

A LESBIAN woman living in SAN FRANCISCO who plays at all women Dyke events gets black marks because a tiny short essay, one of hundreds, by a woman who has written at least two books that I know of, isn't written in some stupid ass he/she/it/they/we/them/us/LGBYTORESYLS format?  SERIOUS? 


Lighten up, Francis. If you had read the thread you would know this issue has been resolved.


quote:

The essay wasn't meant as the grand unifying theory of BDSM!!!!!!!!


True, it was intended as advice for new submissives which is exactly why it should be reflective of that state and as accurate as possible. Such articles should be critically examined and held to close scrutiny to see if they can stand the harsh light no matter who writes them. The article was adequate. It wasn't great. There were some inaccurate generalizations that have already been pointed out in other places on this thread. Midori is an amazing fetish artist and photographer. She's very good at what she does. She's, overall, an incredible woman. That said, I've read her stuff before and she's a mediocre writer. 100 years from now, no one is going to remember her writing .. but she will probably have made a huge impact for other areas of BDSM which may well be (and should be) remembered for a very long time.

The one has nothing to do with the other.


quote:

If we are going to bitch at something, lets find something actually WORTHY of bitching about like how pompous and arrogant I am, or how badly we treat left handed trans gendered elk or something.


I don't know any left handed trans gendered elks, but yeah, you are absolutely pompous and arrogant, over the top, childish and TOSable in this thread which is way beneath the man you've become so cut the shit and quit with the regressing already.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/11/2008 11:34:17 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mandalic

As one of the admins on the website in which that was posted, and as the person who actually put that piece on the site I want to say a few things.

1) The link the OP provided was a link to ONE of many blog posts Midori has written for that specific website. The section that is linked to is for us to post articles and featured blogs, which that piece is. She has various other essays on that site which can be found HERE if you would like to read more of her writing.

2) That essay was an idea that she had to write about a specific topic directed at specific people. There is no need for her to appeal to the masses or the minorities. She has no obligation to make everyone happy. Her advice can however be taken across the board and doesn't have to only apply to one type of person, no matter how she wrote it.

3) Because she actually gives a shit about people and the lifestyle she is a figurehead in, she wanted to share what she knows and what wisdom she has. Sure, it's basic information to some, sure many of us who are involved in the lifestyle know this information already, but there are those who don't and there ARE those who have been helped by reading this piece.

Advice like this can be translated to many people, of every orientation and gender and role. If you have not gained anything by reading it, then move along, it just means it wasn't for you. If you are offended by her lack of using the specific labels that you want that represent you, and you feel ostricised and demand equalness, well maybe you should realize that by pointing out the fact that you're different is what makes you different. Open minded people don't care about labels, they are words to use to help explain and describe things, if you're going to be offended by not being included and you think it is an attack on whatever 'minority' you subscribe to then you're only furthering the cycle of descrimination. If you really want to be equal stop seeing yourself as different. Also in case you've all forgot we're all a minority in this.




Whether or not you're an admin for that board is irrelevant as are any other articles or blogs which Midori has penned. This thread is about one particular article. One person had issues regarding a question orientation which was also irrelevant and that was an issue that was already resolved. Midori's words will heap criticism or praise by their own merit. My personal choice is to view content as the priority and style as a secondary consideration. In my opinion, both were lacking. Hopefully, you would not censor such a critique simply based on name recognition of the author and by telling others to move along makes it appear as though the article needs coddling. That's not going to work here. Speaking for myself, but well aware that many others share this view - there are loads of people on this forum who just don't coddle. Many people liked it and said so. Some of us didn't care for it so much and said so. Such is the way of forums.



_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to mandalic)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/11/2008 12:12:45 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Bita,

quote:

  True, it was intended as advice for new submissives which is exactly why it should be reflective of that state and as accurate as possible. Such articles should be critically examined and held to close scrutiny to see if they can stand the harsh light no matter who writes them. The article was adequate. It wasn't great.


Who are you using as the standard for BDSM writing for newbies?  I like it because it isn't filled with overly romatic fluff (CastleRealm), it isn't self agrandizing (Steele), and instead it makes what we do transparent and natural and shows people how their vanilla common sense still applies to most things.

quote:

There were some inaccurate generalizations that have already been pointed out in other places on this thread. ... That said, I've read her stuff before and she's a mediocre writer. 100 years from now, no one is going to remember her writing .. but she will probably have made a huge impact for other areas of BDSM which may well be (and should be) remembered for a very long time.


Nodody was looking at that essay as literature and considering the state of BDSM writing, I think hers stands head and shoulders above the others.  Now to be fair to a few people, Midori has had a decade or more to improve on what others have written but her stuff is still some of the best general relationship stuff out there.


(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/11/2008 12:19:30 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		FR ~
 
Once you start placing the writer on a pedestal - despite their age, talent, sex or orientation - regardless of the writing and instead of the words - the message is lost anyway.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Advice For Submissives from Midori - 6/11/2008 2:23:39 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


Who are you using as the standard for BDSM writing for newbies? 


I don't use a person. I use critical thinking ability, my own background in literature and education and 2.5 decades of offline BDSM experience. I find that to be adequate to form an opinion on the subject when it's expressed via a written medium. Who do you use as the standard?

quote:

I like it because it isn't filled with overly romatic fluff (CastleRealm), it isn't self agrandizing (Steele), and instead it makes what we do transparent and natural and shows people how their vanilla common sense still applies to most things.


I acknowledged that some folks liked it. Some of her stuff is better than that article, some of isn't. They can't all be gems and in my opinion, which is exactly what I expressed, this one isn't a diamond. As for CR and Steele - I would have to take each article and judge it on its own merit. There has been good stuff and bad stuff on both sites. 


quote:

Nodody was looking at that essay as literature and considering the state of BDSM writing, I think hers stands head and shoulders above the others. 


Not quite accurate. "I" was looking at that essay as literature. Considering the state of BDSM, both the amazing and the monstrosities, that piece falls somewhere in the middle for me. I'm taking about a Bell Curve here where you might find 128 Rules for Submissives  at one end and almost anything by Dossie Easton at the other. Midori, to me, falls smack in the middle between those two as does most of the stuff you'll find for free on the web.


quote:

Now to be fair to a few people, Midori has had a decade or more to improve on what others have written but her stuff is still some of the best general relationship stuff out there.




You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect, completely, your right to form it and hold it. I'll take Easton, Wiseman, Rinella, Lizst, Henkin, Sutton and a whole slew of others before Midori. When I want 'the best' fetish artist, she'll be in the top 20. She makes the top 20 for amazing women who have contributed to BDSM. She'd make the top 20 for a lot of things, but for writing, she doesn't make 'my' list.

This post was so much better than your last one.  

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 60
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