RE: Honor Amoung Friends

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windchymes -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/3/2005 6:46:14 PM)
Lucky....uh, EM...uh....hi :), You're absolutely right, in both instances. But I was just trying to make a light list of "What Friends Should Do For Each Other". I was going to include "friends don't let the other girls put their bra in the freezer at slumber parties" but I didn't want to be silly. [;)] windchymes

candystripper -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/3/2005 7:51:09 PM)
quote: But playing the honor card to manipulate or "guilt" another person into doing something that compromises their own values is NOT honorable. I would call it dishonorable to EXPECT someone I thought of as my friend to do something that they really do not want to do. A 'true' friend accepts the other as they are, and with maturity comes the realization that, just because someone else's values do not match your own does not mean that they are not worthwhile values. In fact, I believe there is more honor in being true to ones own values rather than compromising them to please another. And, unless any one individual's armor is totally untarnished, they should not tut-tut over a chink in another's armor. wyncchymes miss, if people's mistakes made them forever after powerless to object or speak or act in a similiar matter in the future, we would all be pretty well done in at kindergarten age for rough-housing; biting; stabbing another kid with a pencil, etc. All anyone can do is the best they can do under the circumstances, and i have done so. Accepting someone as they truely are is an on-going process in which each reveals more to the other, and is trusted with revelations in exchange. Some things are unacceptable to me....one of those is a lack of Honor in a friend. i have tried, repeatedly, to say this thread seeks other's opinions as to whether honor is a requisite of friendship. Whether anyone else would, possesed of all the facts, make a decision that mirrors mine is NOT the subject of the Op post. Those facts will not be made known, and so the reader is left with a generic question: do you believe a friendship requires honor? i swear, i think some people are so over-anxous to hear the details they cannot read. i did not start this thread to spread gossip and i do not intend to start now. candystripper

windchymes -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/3/2005 8:23:49 PM)
Ok, one more time: quote: I'm not making any judgements against any individual here, because I don't know all the facts of the drama behind all this, nor do I want to. The topic raised in the OP is about honor and friendship. Of course friends should treat each other honorably. They should not hit on each other's girlfriends or boyfriends. They should not steal money from the other's purse. They should not dish dirt or spread gossip about the other. If they hear gossip, they should come to the other's defense. At least cite my ENTIRE post. I answered the freaking question you asked! It's in the second paragraph! But this isn't a courtroom and this isn't a black and white, yes-or-no question. There are qualifiers to the statement "Yes, friends should treat each other honorably". This is a forum, and we're all entitled to our opinions. And that's mine. And please reread my opening sentence. I could give a rats ass less what took place and who was involved. I don't know any of you anyway. And that's all I'm saying on this topic. windchymes

luvdragonx -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/3/2005 8:40:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper You are owed the courtesy of a reply, even though your post contained a bit of derision. I'll own that. I was just disappointed to see more potentially good discourse go down the drain. quote: Perhaps you should start a thread on what constitutes Honor...other people's responses would be interesting reading. Maybe, but you already started a thread on Honor....why start another one? There was plenty of discussion on 'What constitutes honor', but you kept trying to squash it. Why? quote: 2. No one else's sense of Honor was at issue in the Op post. i cannot say this any more plainly. Au contraire. You used to be a lawyer. Surely you understand the power of implication. You start out talking about an anonymous friend, then end with a question about honor. So we're to think that either A. You like putting unrelated bits of information together and posting or B. One thing had to do with the other. You implied that the ex friend was lacking in honor (by your definition) by denying you something. The implication was clear - that's why almost everyone commented on it. quote: 3. On the contrary, no one was identified as the other party to the dispute referred to in the Op post, nor will i identify them. As i have said, this thread is not about all forms of interpersonal conflict. Again, perhaps You might wish to start such a thread. I never said you named names, nor did I ask you to - I don't want to know. I said you mentioned a specific situation as a preface to your question. quote: 4. i directed people to a thread which caused the end of one of my friendships, to set the record straight as to what happened. i was accused of ending a friendship because i did not want to take someone's advice. This is silly on its face; advice by its nature may or may not be taken. The fact is, amoung other things, the other party had revealed personal information about me on the boards. If i had not ended that friendship, i can only assume any further convos were also fodder for the boards. That is just unacceptable to me. Like I said, I saw that thread before the mass edits, and it seems I saw it a bit differently than you did. quote: Obviously, my friends are a diverse group. People from my law school days; from my Masters' Program, from my years of litigation, from BDSM, including Men who are poly, sadistic, or otherwise not suited to me as a Dom or Master. Additionally i prize my friendships with submissives and slaves. Such a group does not react to each of life's dilemmas in the same way. What they have in common is a Moral Code which i generally agree with, and mutual respect exsts between us. Okay......so their sensibilities are similar to yours - that's cool. Nothing wrong with that. quote: Your story about Anopheles -- though i feel it was wrong to disclose personal information about your friend without His prior consent -- left me sad. i have had some contact with Him and find Him to be a pleasant person, someone i'd probably like to know better. It is always distressing that someone you like is suffering. i hope for better days for Him. ~laughs~ quote: i do not find money a gauge by which i choose my friends. Some are quite well-to-do; some are desparately poor. Money is a vehicle for creature comforts, not the measure of anyone's worth. i can certainly understand self-preservation and a fear of recriminations might support a decision not to furnish money. Looking around, wondering where you got the idea that I think money determines friendship. quote: As to your last question: i am mystified why people are having trouble understanding the question in the Op post. The question is "does honor play a role in your friendships?" What is so vague about that? camdystripper Maybe your question would have been better posted as a poll, that way you could get the Yes/No answers you wanted. Otherwise, you're gonna get discussion.

anopheles -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/3/2005 8:40:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper Your story about Anopheles -- though i feel it was wrong to disclose personal information about your friend without His prior consent -- left me sad. i have had some contact with Him and find Him to be a pleasant person, someone i'd probably like to know better. It is always distressing that someone you like is suffering. i hope for better days for Him. candystripper Pinky, I appreciate your kind words in calling me pleasant, and I hope that I continue to be so. Your comments in response to luvdragon did hurt my feelings somewhat, though. Luvdragon didn't post anything all that personal, and if she wanted to, she would most certainly ask me if she thought that I would have a problem with something that she said in a public forum. She respects me both as a husband, and her Dominant, but most importantly, as her FRIEND. I don't know which person you think is suffering (me, or the friend of ours that luvdragon referred to in her post), but it isn't me. Luvdragon has been my devoted, faithful companion for basically my entire adult life, and I am happier with her now than I was the day that I met her. At any rate though, you are certainly entitled to your opinions, as is everyone else that chooses to post. On this one though, I kindly agree to disagree with you. Warmest regards, Anopheles

candystripper -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 5:58:34 AM)
quote: At any rate though, you are certainly entitled to your opinions, as is everyone else that chooses to post. On this one though, I kindly agree to disagree with you. Warmest regards, Anopheles Anopheles, i am very pleased to hear You are financially stable. In these tough economic times, some of my friends are suffering, and i wish i could win the lottery and hire all of them sigh. candystripper

candystripper -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 6:05:59 AM)
quote: Au contraire. You used to be a lawyer. Surely you understand the power of implication. You start out talking about an anonymous friend, then end with a question about honor. So we're to think that either A. You like putting unrelated bits of information together and posting or B. One thing had to do with the other. You implied that the ex friend was lacking in honor (by your definition) by denying you something. The implication was clear - that's why almost everyone commented on it. luvdragonx Perhaps you're right, and this should have been set up as a Poll. i have never done one, and it never occured to me. i never meant for people to comment on what happened to me; i wrote what had happened to me as a preface to my question. i assumed other people would discuss situations they had faced re: Honor in friendship. Instead it seems everyone wanted to comment on what happened to ME, but since no one has enough information, and i wasn't soliciting these types of remarks, i tried to redirect the thread. IMO, it was unsuccessful. Nearly everyone said "yes, Honor matters in friendship"; but who would say "no"? candystripper

candystripper -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 6:15:33 AM)
quote: I'm not making any judgements against any individual here, because I don't know all the facts of the drama behind all this, nor do I want to. The topic raised in the OP is about honor and friendship. Of course friends should treat each other honorably. They should not hit on each other's girlfriends or boyfriends. They should not steal money from the other's purse. They should not dish dirt or spread gossip about the other. If they hear gossip, they should come to the other's defense. But playing the honor card to manipulate or "guilt" another person into doing something that compromises their own values is NOT honorable. I would call it dishonorable to EXPECT someone I thought of as my friend to do something that they really do not want to do. A 'true' friend accepts the other as they are, and with maturity comes the realization that, just because someone else's values do not match your own does not mean that they are not worthwhile values. In fact, I believe there is more honor in being true to ones own values rather than compromising them to please another. And, unless any one individual's armor is totally untarnished, they should not tut-tut over a chink in another's armor. windchymes quote: At least cite my ENTIRE post. I answered the freaking question you asked! It's in the second paragraph! But this isn't a courtroom and this isn't a black and white, yes-or-no question. There are qualifiers to the statement "Yes, friends should treat each other honorably". This is a forum, and we're all entitled to our opinions. And that's mine. And please reread my opening sentence. I could give a rats ass less what took place and who was involved. I don't know any of you anyway. And that's all I'm saying on this topic. windchymes miss, my apologies if you felt i misrepresented what you wrote because i did not quote your post in its entirety. i quoted the portion to which i responded, and that's generally my practice. There was no insult to you in the partial quote, direct or implied. candystripper

MsIncognito -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 6:53:10 AM)
*wild applause* Perfectly said. quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth To us honor and integrity are almost synonymous. Your friend had the integrity to be true to his/her beliefs to the point of risking losing your friendship. This "good friend" was lost simply because he/she said no to you, because you didn't agree with their reasons for saying no. Their integrity and honor wasn't compromised. You valued the "favor" more then the friend and your friend's integrity. Who's position more lacked "honor"?

candystripper -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 7:05:50 AM)
quote: wild applause Perfectly said. MsIncognito quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth To us honor and integrity are almost synonymous. Your friend had the integrity to be true to his/her beliefs to the point of risking losing your friendship. This "good friend" was lost simply because he/she said no to you, because you didn't agree with their reasons for saying no. Their integrity and honor wasn't compromised. You valued the "favor" more then the friend and your friend's integrity. Who's position more lacked "honor"? sigh i am truely amazed, after the number of times i have repeated this, that (1) no one knows what happened, but it wasn't a question of Honor for the other party an (2) the thread was supposed to be about how OTHER people felt regarding Honor in friendships. Are You saying, Mercnbeth, that You cannot report any incident, or posit any hypothtical. in which You ended a friendship because of a lack of Honor...or sacrificed in some way because of Honor? The point of the thread is to hear how Honor in a friendship affects YOU...not me. The guessing about what happened to me is wrong, as i have said before. As for MsIncognito, i fail to see the reason for Your post. You did not enter the discourse. candystripper

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 7:36:08 AM)
Well let's see, a partner of mine decided to go monogamous on me with a new belle he'd been dating without telling me. That wasn't cool. I also invited him to go to a party with me and he said he couldn't because he'd be too busy and tired with moving and then decided to come with the other girl. That wasn't cool. He also hasn't offered consolation for some difficult things I've been going through and that irks me. BUT then you have a friend who quietly takes you aside and lets you know what they can offer you if something goes wrong, or makes the leap to actually tell you that they can't go on a date with you because they have plans with someone else. Life goes on.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 7:37:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper sigh* i am truely amazed, after the number of times i have repeated this, that (1) no one knows what happened, but it wasn't a question of Honor for the other party an (2) the thread was supposed to be about how OTHER people felt regarding Honor in friendships. So can I ask what the motivation for ending the friendship was? If it wasn't you perceiving a lack of honor in them? Not that I think I will get a straight answer, but figured I'd ask.

MsIncognito -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 8:24:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper As for MsIncognito, i fail to see the reason for Your post. You did not enter the discourse. I gave my opinion which you summarily dismissed since it wasn't what you wanted to hear. shrug I applauded because Mercnbeth made my point much more succinctly and clearly than I did. It's a shame you missed it entirely.

candystripper -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 8:34:03 AM)
quote: soooooooooooooooooo did you think I was long in coming.................... no dictionary for the wicked and the righteous dont need any...... See, the OP of another thread will remain anonymout until he she comes to light by the very diatribe I am willing to respond to, in such a way the matter can be couched that I have been hurt and anyone else is an asshole.............please see anybody who has ever posted in my favor or disdained me in a reply............If you are confused about the intense ramification and life changing attributes of this post, I have a way out.....although in vulgar language I said in a prior post while the dictionary was available, that latin can be used to amalgamate a procipitous tumult among the populous and cast it into the throes of extasy thus: Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur. I am finally at the end of my being in this matter and cannot add one whit of sensibilty and must let my words speak for themselves. WTF? is this gonna be it? ok, Ron we have communicated something of significance to each other today. _____________________________ "Schlau, aber nichts wahr" Albert Einstein Geez..sorry to ask; but i need a Ron - to - english translation again. candystripper

candystripper -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 8:41:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper As for MsIncognito, i fail to see the reason for Your post. You did not enter the discourse. quote: I gave my opinion which you summarily dismissed since it wasn't what you wanted to hear. shrug I applauded because Mercnbeth made my point much more succinctly and clearly than I did. It's a shame you missed it entirely. MsIncognito i went back over the thread in case i missed something, but no, You have not spoken to the Op question, "does friendship require Honor?" i see where You took my words in response to others and impuned my sincerity as a submissive woman, but nothing from You as to Honor. i understand what Mercnbeth are saying; they just don't have the facts straight and have made a faulty assumption or two. They are not wrong; the advice/opinion just doesn't fit the situation i experienced. i think i have said this about 3xs; i doubt everyone is lacking the requisite caffeine to grasp its meaning, so i am gonna stop repeating myself. candystripper

stormsfate -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 9:09:07 AM)
Before responding, I went to get an accurate definition of the word "honor" (posted below) so I can attempt to answer what appears to be the question...leaving out the other stuff you posted that you don't want to talk about. As for me, the answer would be no. A friendship with me does not require honor. I would expect honesty, loyalty, confidentiality... and that they give of themselves what they genuinely wish to offer in the name of friendship (and not what they may feel an obligation to offer). I don't tend to ask things of my friends for the very reason that I would not want them to feel obligated. I don't do friendships based on "what can you do for me?". Oh...and I don't do pretentiousness, either ;) Hope this is the type of response you were looking for. best regards, fate hon·or Audio pronunciation of "honor" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nr) n. 1. High respect, as that shown for special merit; esteem: the honor shown to a Nobel laureate. 2. 1. Good name; reputation. 2. A source or cause of credit: was an honor to the profession. 3. 1. Glory or recognition; distinction. 2. A mark, token, or gesture of respect or distinction: the place of honor at the table. 3. A military decoration. 4. A title conferred for achievement. 4. High rank. 5. The dignity accorded to position: awed by the honor of his office. 6. Great privilege: I have the honor to present the governor. 7. Honor Used with His, Her, or Your as a title and form of address for certain officials, such as judges and mayors: Her Honor the Mayor. 8. 1. Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity. 2. A code of integrity, dignity, and pride, chiefly among men, that was maintained in some societies, as in feudal Europe, by force of arms. 3. A woman's chastity or reputation for chastity. 9. honors Social courtesies offered to guests: did the honors at tea. 10. honors 1. Special recognition for unusual academic achievement: graduated with honors. 2. A program of individual advanced study for exceptional students: planned to take honors in history. 11. Sports. The right of being first at the tee in golf. 12. Games. 1. Any of the four or five highest cards, especially the ace, king, queen, jack, and ten of the trump suit, in card games such as bridge or whist. 2. The points allotted to these cards. Often used in the plural. tr.v. hon·ored, hon·or·ing, hon·ors 1. 1. To hold in respect; esteem. 2. To show respect for. 3. To bow to (another dancer) in square dancing: Honor your partner. 2. To confer distinction on: He has honored us with his presence. 3. To accept or pay as valid: honor a check; a store that honors all credit cards. Idiom: honor bound Under an obligation enforced by the personal integrity of the one obliged: I was honor bound to admit that she had done the work. [Middle English, from Old French, from Latin.]honor·er n. Synonyms: honor, homage, reverence, veneration, deference These nouns denote admiration, respect, or esteem accorded to another as a right or as due. Honor is the most general term: The hero tried to be worthy of the honor in which he was held. Homage is often in the form of a ceremonial tribute that conveys allegiance: “There is no country in which so absolute a homage is paid to wealth” (Ralph Waldo Emerson). Reverence is a feeling of deep respect and devotion: “Kill reverence and you've killed the hero in man” (Ayn Rand). Veneration is both the feeling and the reverential expression of respect, love, and awe: Her veneration for her mentor never wavered. Deference is courteous, respectful regard for another that often implies yielding to him or her: The funeral was arranged with deference to the family of the deceased.

candystripper -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 9:29:50 AM)
quote: As for me, the answer would be no. A friendship with me does not require honor. I would expect honesty, loyalty, confidentiality... and that they give of themselves what they genuinely wish to offer in the name of friendship (and not what they may feel an obligation to offer). I don't tend to ask things of my friends for the very reason that I would not want them to feel obligated. I don't do friendships based on "what can you do for me?". Oh...and I don't do pretentiousness, either ;) Hope this is the type of response you were looking for. best regards, fate i agree with you about pretentiousness. i was just not equipted to "suck up" to new bosses, (old bosses, LOL), etc. i gave everyone the respect i felt they were due; and this really upset some people who thought boot-licking was in my job description. i agree with you that friendship requires confidentiality, honesty and loyalty. i am curious why you feel honor is not required. We both gave dictionary definitions of honor, so presumably, we can talk about the same thing. Let me give an example and see what you think. You like someone new, and in the course of conversation, you find out that several newspaper and magazines are delivered to this person's home, and billed to the employer. May not even be your employer. It's apparent, because this person had to dream up a scheme to arrange this, that the employer should not be paying. Would you be inclined or not to pursue a friendship with this person? My answer would be "no". No one was hurt; the subscriptions probabaly are not having any bearing on the employer's bottom line; there's ample evidence this person never takes advantage of individuals. This is just a bit of petty theft from their employer. i realise people are not perfect, but this would put me off enough to remain acquaintences and not become friends. Assuming you knew this person would never be dishonest with you, would you be able to accept them as a friend or not? candystripper

stormsfate -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 11:08:06 AM)
Perhaps its semantics, but the scenario you gave appears to me to have more to do with honesty than honor. To answer the question, though, if there were enough interest there that I felt it worth pursuing, then sure...I would be friends with the person in your hypothetical scenario. At the same time, a person can be blunt with friends (and some of us are just blunt to everyone), and I wouldn't hesitate pointing out to them why stealing isn't a nice thing to do. Now getting back to "honor"...what is your definition (your link didn't work) in your own words? When I use the word honor, I tend to use it in the sense that a person is set higher than other people in the way they are treated. I tend to think you are using "principled uprightness of character; personal integrity"...which is surely one of the definitions. The problem I have with requiring this of someone, is that there are so many viewpoints in the world and who is to speak for how everyone else should live? Because someone feels differently about certain things than I, it doesn't mean that I'm right. Soooo, I live my life based upon what I feel is right (within the dictates of my owner) and let others do the same. If there is enough common ground, then a friendship can develop. If there isn't, well....there is nothing wrong with having acquainances...lol. best regards, fate

luvdragonx -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 12:11:34 PM)
candy, Do you read? I mean really really read and comprehend what you see? I'm asking this mostly out of genuine frustration and amazement than unkindness. I'm not even gonna harp on how you made an implication then backpedaled and basically ran around trying to put the genie back in the bottle afterward. Nor will I harp on how you insist that you don't like personality disputes made public on the boards, yet you CHOOSE to respond to each person and keep the dispute going, instead of ignoring remarks you find inappropriate. What I want to address is how you've blown past all the pertinent information/discussion in my post and focussed on one, tiny thing, and made it into something it wasn't. ON a public forum. When I initially replied to you, I asked some questions based on what I saw you saying in other posts. You read derision in it, and it was partly true - I was annoyed that a good subject was getting twisted into "All About Pink/candy" yet again. You saw fit to suggest I start my own thread - a bit snide, but no big deal - and the question of Why still stands. Why start another thread? Isn't it possible that from unrestricted discourse you might have learned something anyway? Even if it wasn't exactly what you wanted to hear? I included a personal experience to tie into your question about honor and illustrate how honor can be defined differently by different people and still be honorable and maintain friendship. You took that personal experience and used it to attempt to publicly scold me for supposedly betraying the confidence of a 'friend', then somehow read into it that HE was having financial problems (and said so publicly) and that I based friendship on money. First off, you referring to him as my 'friend' was tacky. Your trying to take me to task for betraying my 'friend' was tacky. Your public presumptions about his/our financial situation was tacky. Anyone with a mouse and a couple of clicks can discern that Anopheles is my R/T Dom, and he is also my HUSBAND. There ain't nothin' you know about him that I don't, and rest assured there's plenty you don't know - and I do. I had to laugh, I really did. Nothing in what I said implied that HE was having financial difficulty, yet you conjured that up and ran with it. I commented on the topic by using that example and you chose to ignore that part of it - or deliberately misunderstand. And when he tells you in a very kind way that he didn't really appreciate your comments to me about him, you COMPLETELY ignore that and stick to the financial hardship angle that doesn't exist!!!!!!! So now, if this were a different type of environment, you would have likely started a rumor based on nothing. NOTHING. Thus why I asked the question - do you really read what the rest of us say? Or do you just pick out the bright shiny bits and run away?

Guest -> RE: Honor Amoung Friends (11/4/2005 12:18:40 PM)
This is a reminder for everyone to remain on the question as of now and not continue back and forth private pokes as this is against TOS.Please take disagreements off board and not waste space with novelladrama.

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