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More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/17/2008 9:48:49 PM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline
quote:

At Least 51 Dead in Baghdad Bombing

A car bomb set to explode during the busiest time of day
killed at least 51 people and wounded 75 Tuesday evening as
shoppers were strolling through a Shiite neighborhood market
in Baghdad. It was the deadliest attack in the Iraqi capital
in more than three months
.

http://www.nytimes.com/?emc=na
 
i cannot help remembering 'suicide bombings' during the Vietnam War.  i don't think W/we used that term, but it still went on.
 
http://www.progress.org/2004/fpif48.htm
 
i fear for the safety of O/our troops.
 
pinksugarsub

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Profile   Post #: 1
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/17/2008 10:46:34 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

Foreign firms investing in Iraq

By Jim Michaels, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — European and Asian companies are beating their American rivals into Iraq now that security has improved the investment climate, Iraq and U.S. officials say.

"It's starting to turn … and the people who are getting in on the ground floor are not American," said Paul Brinkley, the Pentagon official who is leading U.S. efforts to help Iraq rebuild its economy. "It's ironic."

...

Many of the companies active in Iraq now are from countries, including France, Russia and Turkey, that did not send combat troops to back the U.S.-led invasion.

Some U.S. and Iraqi officials say American companies risk losing an early opportunity to establish long-term strategic ties with Iraq.

"My question is, 'Where are you guys in terms of investment, in terms of economic engagement?' " said Naufel al-Hassan, Iraq's commercial counselor in Washington. "Iraqis need your support. Why let someone else do that?"


...

American companies may also be reluctant to invest in Iraq because the war has generated so much controversy at home, Brinkley said.



_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to pinksugarsub)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 12:13:54 AM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline
FirmhandKy, should i infer from Yr post that it's Yr opinion that the country of Iraq is improving and becoming more stable?
 
If that is Yr position, what do You make of the bombing i posted about in the Op?  Do You consider it an abberation?
 
Do You have any links to source material for the proposition that Iraq is stabilizing and become safer, etc.?
 
pinksugarsub 

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(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 6:04:19 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
Iraq's parliament prepares to leave Green Zone
Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:05pm EDT

BAGHDAD, June 17 (Reuters) - Iraq's parliament will relocate just outside Baghdad's fortified Green Zone compound in September for the first time since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion, a sign security is improving, the first deputy speaker said on Tuesday.

Khalid al-Attiya said top parliamentary officials had approved moving to a newly renovated building.

The plan was made possible by a drop in violence to a four-year low, a parliamentary spokesman added.

"Tomorrow the committee of security in parliament will meet the minister of interior and defence to arrange security measures for the (new) building," Attiya said in a statement.

*******************

Remember Those Iraqi Benchmarks? Well, Guess What�

Democrats no longer talk of the 18 benchmarks for measuring progress in Iraq because so much progress has now taken place.
June 17, 2008

Way back in the dark days of 2007, when the only popular question about the Iraq war concerned the degree of tragedy, Congress’s Iraq “benchmarks” were all the rage among Democrats. Every argument against a continued U.S. presence in Iraq was constructed around the Maliki administration’s apparent inability to meet the political and security-based milestones as outlined by America’s Democratic-majority Congress.

Then something happened. The gains of the troop surge allowed the Iraqi government and citizenry to implement the security measures and legislative acts called for by the U.S. The benchmark line of argument quietly died. Here, then, is the brief life and glorious death of the great benchmark trope.

***********************

The Situation on the Ground in Basra and Mosul
Nicholas M. Guariglia
15 Jun 2008

Violence in Iraq has reached a four-year low. The U.S. casualty rate is now 0.72 deaths per day, constituting the eighth month in a row of dramatic improvements as compared to the 4.2 deaths per day from this time last year. Iraqi civilian deaths, too, are down. For some perspective, the monthly murder tolls in Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York City were 48.7, 51.9, and 49.3 a few years ago. Today, less than 400 Iraqi citizens –– throughout the whole country, not just a few cities –– perish on a monthly basis. And this is a war zone.

I guess it could be said that from ’03-’06, the international press and the mainstream media did not report the “good news” from Iraq because good news was scarce. Outside of some brave freelancers, most reporters stayed safe in their Baghdad hotels and reported only on explosions from afar, which were known about only because of an ever-quick newswire.

In the past few months, however, many of our friends in the Western press have exposed to us something worse than blatant bias; we’re seeing a barefaced misunderstanding and miscomprehension of what is happening on the ground in-theater. The recent skirmishes in Basra, and the more recent crackdown in Mosul, have served as an example of this phenomenon.

************

How Prime Minister Maliki Pacified Iraq
By KIMBERLY KAGAN and FREDERICK W. KAGAN
June 10, 2008; Page A17

America is very close to succeeding in Iraq. The "near-strategic defeat" of al Qaeda in Iraq described by CIA Director Michael Hayden last month in the Washington Post has been followed by the victory of the Iraqi government's security forces over illegal Shiite militias, including Iranian-backed Special Groups. The enemies of Iraq and America now cling desperately to their last bastions, while the political process builds momentum.

These tremendous gains remain fragile and could be lost to skillful enemy action, or errors in Baghdad or Washington. But where the U.S. was unequivocally losing in Iraq at the end of 2006, we are just as unequivocally winning today.

By February 2008, America and its partners accomplished a series of tasks thought to be impossible. The Sunni Arab insurgency and al Qaeda in Iraq were defeated in Anbar, Diyala and Baghdad provinces, and the remaining leaders and fighters clung to their last urban outpost in Mosul. The Iraqi government passed all but one of the "benchmark" laws (the hydrocarbon law being the exception, but its purpose is now largely accomplished through the budget) and was integrating grass-roots reconciliation with central political progress. The sectarian civil war had ended.

Meanwhile, the Iraqi Security Forces (ISF), swelled by 100,000 new recruits in 2007, was fighting hard and skillfully throughout Iraq. The Shiite-led government was showing an increasing willingness to use its forces even against Shiite militias. The announcement that provincial elections would be held by year's end galvanized political movements across the country, focusing Iraq's leaders on the need to get more votes rather than more guns.

Three main challenges to security and political progress remained: clearing al Qaeda out of Mosul; bringing Basra under the Iraqi government's control; and eliminating the Special Groups safe havens in Sadr City. It seemed then that these tasks would require enormous effort, entail great loss of life, and take the rest of the year or more. Instead, the Iraqi government accomplished them within a few months.

*****************

Thursday · June 12, 2008

The End of the State of Exception in Iraq

by David Pan

Though it is still premature to speak of a victory in Iraq, there seems to be no question that the tide of the war has turned against al-Qaeda and Muqtada al-Sadr's militias and toward the Iraqi government.

...

This turn of events in the last 18 months, and particularly since March, confirms the wisdom of the U.S. military's turn to a classic counterinsurgency approach to the war, involving a focus on protecting the civilian population and building close relationships with local groups. Their ability to effect this turnaround so quickly is a tribute to their flexibility and resourcefulness in shifting their basic stance. But it is also an indication about some of the ideological realities in Iraq.

First, the relative speed with which al-Qaeda and the Sadrists have been pushed out of the main cities indicates the lack of deep support for radical Islamist ideologies within Iraq. Their previous gains were apparently based on a mixture of terror and the U.S. military's unwillingness in the first years of the war to engage with Iraqis on a local level. At the same time, Iraqi nationalist sentiment seems to be stronger than previously thought, when the country seemed to be at risk of descending into a prolonged sectarian civil war. This combination of a nationalist ideology and practical accommodations with local, tribal leaders could lead to a new stability in Iraq if (1) sectarian conflicts can be subordinated to an overarching national consensus and (2) this consensus can be based on an Iraqi nationalism rather than a Ba'athist pan-Arab nationalism.

...

June 12, 2008
Iraq Oil production could increase by 400,000 bpd by the end of 2008

Following up on Iraq Oil status Oil production and output holding steady at higher levels that started in May. Iraq will produce up to 2.9 million bpd by the end of 2008, Hussein al-Shahristani Iraqi Oil Minister 2.9 million bpd would be an increase of about 400,000 bpd from levels at the end of May, 2008 2.53 million bpd.

*****************

This Is Why Facts Matter
Jennifer Rubin - 06.13.2008 - 4:09 PM

Senior Brookings Fellows Michael O’Hanlon and Kenneth Pollack gave a report today and entertained questions at a Brookings briefing on Iraq. It was the single most illuminating presentation I have witnessed on the status of Iraq and the potential way forward. Neither man can be accused of shilling for either the administration or John McCain for numerous reasons: both have been strong critics of the war and O’Hanlon opposed the war at the onset and still believes on balance it has not made us safer. I understand from Brookings that the entire transcript will be posted, but I offer some highlights below.

O’Hanlon explained that the last three months has been the “spring of the blossoming of Iraqi security forces” and Iraq is on an “impressive trajectory” although we have not yet “reached a stable end point.” He stressed that the 80% reduction in civilian violence was much better than he thought possible. He went through a detailed review of Basra, conceding that Maliki’s actions took the Americans by surprise and that in the first week things went poorly. However, by the second week two brigades were deployed from Al Anbar ( a testimony to massive improvements in Iraq security force logistics) and the mission was successful, allowing the Iraqi army and national police force to now control the streets of Basra.

Pollack echoed these observations, saying that “The headline was the emergence of Iraqi security forces.” He explained that the fundamental shift from Americans leading with Iraqis in support to Iraqis leading not just “hold” but “clear” operations is now “well underway.” He observes that sectarian divisions within the military are receding as mixed Sunni and Shia units have been successful in Basra and Mosul operations. He sees vast improvement in military leadership which “is one of the main reasons for improvement” in the security situation. He credits the military success with allowing for a “fundamental rearrangement” of Iraqi politics, observing that Maliki is now “flying high” with new found respect from Sunnis. The big picture take away, he says, it that having achieved remarkable success with major issues we now can begin to address “second and third order problems” such as insuring that military forces “stay in their lane” and do not subvert civilian leadership.

***************

There are plenty more. Just read the news.

Won? No, not yet. But looking good.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 4
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 6:06:08 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Won? No, not yet. But looking good.



And you're falling for it .

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Profile   Post #: 5
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 6:07:54 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Won? No, not yet. But looking good.



And you're falling for it .



And, as always, you are in denial when the facts don't fit your ideological preconceptions.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 6
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 6:11:23 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Suicide attacks may well ramp way up in a strategic effort to influence the U.S. elections. 

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Profile   Post #: 7
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 6:21:34 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

And, as always, you are in denial when the facts don't fit your ideological preconceptions.



Wrong. But your intuition that it's an ideological conflict is founded; this 'war' is all about ideology and putting forward the propaganda that will comfort the believers in knowing that their way is the twue way.



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Profile   Post #: 8
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 6:49:00 AM   
orfunboi


Posts: 1223
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline
I never could understand the thinking behind suicide bombings. To me it's just sad.

I don't remember the ones in Viet Nam, but I was more into getting high back then.

Hey Pink, what year did you graduate in?

(in reply to pinksugarsub)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 6:49:54 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
All wars are about ideology.

Therefore, the more important question in my mind is ... why does your ideology wish for Iraq to stay, or become a failed state, where murder is commonplace, and human rights a distant concept?

I like my ideology better, thank you.

Firm

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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 10
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 6:53:52 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
Glad you're admitting to having an ideology at all - each to their own, enjoy it. I know my opinion on the subject of the war on Iraq brings me no personal comfort at all   .

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RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 7:00:35 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Many suicide bombings are forced. Family members or an entire family are often kidnapped and held under threat until the mission is finished, and the detonation is by remote control. Many other suicide bombers are young and gullible, coached into their situation by older, more experienced terrorists - and again, their explosives may be set off by remote control. 

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Profile   Post #: 12
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 7:07:03 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Iraq's parliament prepares to leave Green Zone
Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:05pm EDT

BAGHDAD, June 17 (Reuters) - Iraq's parliament will relocate just outside Baghdad's fortified Green Zone compound in September for the first time since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion, a sign security is improving, the first deputy speaker said on Tuesday.

Khalid al-Attiya said top parliamentary officials had approved moving to a newly renovated building.

The plan was made possible by a drop in violence to a four-year low, a parliamentary spokesman added.

"Tomorrow the committee of security in parliament will meet the minister of interior and defence to arrange security measures for the (new) building," Attiya said in a statement.

*******************

Remember Those Iraqi Benchmarks? Well, Guess What�

Democrats no longer talk of the 18 benchmarks for measuring progress in Iraq because so much progress has now taken place.
June 17, 2008

Way back in the dark days of 2007, when the only popular question about the Iraq war concerned the degree of tragedy, Congress’s Iraq “benchmarks” were all the rage among Democrats. Every argument against a continued U.S. presence in Iraq was constructed around the Maliki administration’s apparent inability to meet the political and security-based milestones as outlined by America’s Democratic-majority Congress.

Then something happened. The gains of the troop surge allowed the Iraqi government and citizenry to implement the security measures and legislative acts called for by the U.S. The benchmark line of argument quietly died. Here, then, is the brief life and glorious death of the great benchmark trope.

***********************

The Situation on the Ground in Basra and Mosul
Nicholas M. Guariglia
15 Jun 2008

Violence in Iraq has reached a four-year low. The U.S. casualty rate is now 0.72 deaths per day, constituting the eighth month in a row of dramatic improvements as compared to the 4.2 deaths per day from this time last year. Iraqi civilian deaths, too, are down. For some perspective, the monthly murder tolls in Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York City were 48.7, 51.9, and 49.3 a few years ago. Today, less than 400 Iraqi citizens –– throughout the whole country, not just a few cities –– perish on a monthly basis. And this is a war zone.

I guess it could be said that from ’03-’06, the international press and the mainstream media did not report the “good news” from Iraq because good news was scarce. Outside of some brave freelancers, most reporters stayed safe in their Baghdad hotels and reported only on explosions from afar, which were known about only because of an ever-quick newswire.

In the past few months, however, many of our friends in the Western press have exposed to us something worse than blatant bias; we’re seeing a barefaced misunderstanding and miscomprehension of what is happening on the ground in-theater. The recent skirmishes in Basra, and the more recent crackdown in Mosul, have served as an example of this phenomenon.

************

How Prime Minister Maliki Pacified Iraq
By KIMBERLY KAGAN and FREDERICK W. KAGAN
June 10, 2008; Page A17

America is very close to succeeding in Iraq. The "near-strategic defeat" of al Qaeda in Iraq described by CIA Director Michael Hayden last month in the Washington Post has been followed by the victory of the Iraqi government's security forces over illegal Shiite militias, including Iranian-backed Special Groups. The enemies of Iraq and America now cling desperately to their last bastions, while the political process builds momentum.

These tremendous gains remain fragile and could be lost to skillful enemy action, or errors in Baghdad or Washington. But where the U.S. was unequivocally losing in Iraq at the end of 2006, we are just as unequivocally winning today.

By February 2008, America and its partners accomplished a series of tasks thought to be impossible. The Sunni Arab insurgency and al Qaeda in Iraq were defeated in Anbar, Diyala and Baghdad provinces, and the remaining leaders and fighters clung to their last urban outpost in Mosul. The Iraqi government passed all but one of the "benchmark" laws (the hydrocarbon law being the exception, but its purpose is now largely accomplished through the budget) and was integrating grass-roots reconciliation with central political progress. The sectarian civil war had ended.

Meanwhile, the Iraqi Security Forces (ISF), swelled by 100,000 new recruits in 2007, was fighting hard and skillfully throughout Iraq. The Shiite-led government was showing an increasing willingness to use its forces even against Shiite militias. The announcement that provincial elections would be held by year's end galvanized political movements across the country, focusing Iraq's leaders on the need to get more votes rather than more guns.

Three main challenges to security and political progress remained: clearing al Qaeda out of Mosul; bringing Basra under the Iraqi government's control; and eliminating the Special Groups safe havens in Sadr City. It seemed then that these tasks would require enormous effort, entail great loss of life, and take the rest of the year or more. Instead, the Iraqi government accomplished them within a few months.

*****************

Thursday · June 12, 2008

The End of the State of Exception in Iraq

by David Pan

Though it is still premature to speak of a victory in Iraq, there seems to be no question that the tide of the war has turned against al-Qaeda and Muqtada al-Sadr's militias and toward the Iraqi government.

...

This turn of events in the last 18 months, and particularly since March, confirms the wisdom of the U.S. military's turn to a classic counterinsurgency approach to the war, involving a focus on protecting the civilian population and building close relationships with local groups. Their ability to effect this turnaround so quickly is a tribute to their flexibility and resourcefulness in shifting their basic stance. But it is also an indication about some of the ideological realities in Iraq.

First, the relative speed with which al-Qaeda and the Sadrists have been pushed out of the main cities indicates the lack of deep support for radical Islamist ideologies within Iraq. Their previous gains were apparently based on a mixture of terror and the U.S. military's unwillingness in the first years of the war to engage with Iraqis on a local level. At the same time, Iraqi nationalist sentiment seems to be stronger than previously thought, when the country seemed to be at risk of descending into a prolonged sectarian civil war. This combination of a nationalist ideology and practical accommodations with local, tribal leaders could lead to a new stability in Iraq if (1) sectarian conflicts can be subordinated to an overarching national consensus and (2) this consensus can be based on an Iraqi nationalism rather than a Ba'athist pan-Arab nationalism.

...

June 12, 2008
Iraq Oil production could increase by 400,000 bpd by the end of 2008

Following up on Iraq Oil status Oil production and output holding steady at higher levels that started in May. Iraq will produce up to 2.9 million bpd by the end of 2008, Hussein al-Shahristani Iraqi Oil Minister 2.9 million bpd would be an increase of about 400,000 bpd from levels at the end of May, 2008 2.53 million bpd.

*****************

This Is Why Facts Matter
Jennifer Rubin - 06.13.2008 - 4:09 PM

Senior Brookings Fellows Michael O’Hanlon and Kenneth Pollack gave a report today and entertained questions at a Brookings briefing on Iraq. It was the single most illuminating presentation I have witnessed on the status of Iraq and the potential way forward. Neither man can be accused of shilling for either the administration or John McCain for numerous reasons: both have been strong critics of the war and O’Hanlon opposed the war at the onset and still believes on balance it has not made us safer. I understand from Brookings that the entire transcript will be posted, but I offer some highlights below.

O’Hanlon explained that the last three months has been the “spring of the blossoming of Iraqi security forces” and Iraq is on an “impressive trajectory” although we have not yet “reached a stable end point.” He stressed that the 80% reduction in civilian violence was much better than he thought possible. He went through a detailed review of Basra, conceding that Maliki’s actions took the Americans by surprise and that in the first week things went poorly. However, by the second week two brigades were deployed from Al Anbar ( a testimony to massive improvements in Iraq security force logistics) and the mission was successful, allowing the Iraqi army and national police force to now control the streets of Basra.

Pollack echoed these observations, saying that “The headline was the emergence of Iraqi security forces.” He explained that the fundamental shift from Americans leading with Iraqis in support to Iraqis leading not just “hold” but “clear” operations is now “well underway.” He observes that sectarian divisions within the military are receding as mixed Sunni and Shia units have been successful in Basra and Mosul operations. He sees vast improvement in military leadership which “is one of the main reasons for improvement” in the security situation. He credits the military success with allowing for a “fundamental rearrangement” of Iraqi politics, observing that Maliki is now “flying high” with new found respect from Sunnis. The big picture take away, he says, it that having achieved remarkable success with major issues we now can begin to address “second and third order problems” such as insuring that military forces “stay in their lane” and do not subvert civilian leadership.

***************

There are plenty more. Just read the news.

Won? No, not yet. But looking good.

Firm



Considering that the  main purpose of the so called "surge" was to provide space and time for the Iraqis to get their shit together politically and make their government work,the ~surge~ is a complete failure.In spite of what politicians like Gen. Petrous have claimed.


True,violence is down but only a republican could say that 10 troops killed a month,instead of twenty killed,is a success.It`s not.


Of course if you flood any area with soldiers and/or build  20 foot high cement walls ,violence will be "reduced" in that particular area.That`s a no-brainer.


We could make Detroit crime free if we flooded it with 50 thousand GIs and walled it in.Whatever.


I find it disingenuous that neo-cons claim the surge is "working" when the stated goals of the surge was to allow the Iraqis more time to form and refine their government.A goal that hasn`t been reached or even approached.


Half the elected officials are boycotting Maliki`s government and the only reason why the Mahdi army isn`t attacking us, is that we`re PAYING them 10 bucks a day, per fighter every day,to stand down.


BTW,paying people to not attack you is not a victory or a war plan.It`s more in the realm of failure and incompetence.


We did our part.The GIs did their part.We gave this every chance and payed dearly w/ our soldiers lives, to give the Iraqis more time.




Time`s up......

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

         As for folks investing in Iraq,Russia is also a hotbed of investment.lol  Go right ahead,lol, convert your dollars to rubles,ASAP.lol

  

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/18/2008 7:19:49 AM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 9:18:44 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
I've always thought that with the will of the American people and their tolerance for the death of our sons and daughters we could win militarily… My contention is and was we don’t have the right to interfere in another countries business if they are not attacking us.

We have suppressed the insurrection and could win but at the cost of many more deaths. I believe the Iraqi’s MUST compromise among themselves without our interference…Otherwise we should give them a solid timetable for our complete withdrawal…Let them come together for the betterment of their people or fight it out…up to them…BUT tell them and mean it that if they become a base for attacks against America we will not give a damn if that antiaircraft gun is setting on to a hospital or in an orphanage.


Butch  

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 9:20:52 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


Posts: 4253
Status: offline
quote:

More Chaos and Death in Iraq


what else is new?


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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 9:47:18 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Considering that the  main purpose of the so called "surge" was to provide space and time for the Iraqis to get their shit together politically and make their government work,the ~surge~ is a complete failure.In spite of what politicians like Gen. Petrous have claimed.

True,violence is down but only a republican could say that 10 troops killed a month,instead of twenty killed,is a success.It`s not.

Of course if you flood any area with soldiers and/or build  20 foot high cement walls ,violence will be "reduced" in that particular area.That`s a no-brainer.

We could make Detroit crime free if we flooded it with 50 thousand GIs and walled it in.Whatever.

I find it disingenuous that neo-cons claim the surge is "working" when the stated goals of the surge was to allow the Iraqis more time to form and refine their government.A goal that hasn`t been reached or even approached.


Half the elected officials are boycotting Maliki`s government and the only reason why the Mahdi army isn`t attacking us, is that we`re PAYING them 10 bucks a day, per fighter every day,to stand down.

BTW,paying people to not attack you is not a victory or a war plan.It`s more in the realm of failure and incompetence.

We did our part.The GIs did their part.We gave this every chance and payed dearly w/ our soldiers lives, to give the Iraqis more time.

Time`s up......


Welcome back, Owner! 

Considering that the  main purpose of the so called "surge" was to provide space and time for the Iraqis to get their shit together politically and make their government work,the ~surge~ is a complete failure

uhhh ... it might help if you:

1.  Actually read any of the few articles I posted above,
2. Read about any of the current events in Iraq, that in general address this very issue.

How you can say that there is no ongoing political "getting their shit together" and "mak[ing] their government work"  .... dunno ... more blinkered ideological thinking?

I seem to recall many people on the anti-war side of the house constantly making claims that supporters of the war couldn't or wouldn't see the failures of the policies at that time.

Seems like the shoe is on the other foot, now that things do seem to be improving.

Perhaps your "side" has it's own blind spots? 

Again ... dunno ... what I do know is that I much prefer being on the side who sees that increasing security, fewer attacks, better economic indicators, and increased, wider and freer political involvement is definitely a "good thing"

Wait! ... isn't that what a "liberal" is suppose to want? [scratches head]

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 11:10:01 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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The US will be in Iraq for another 20 years or so at least, if it wants to achieve its stated aims it had at the beginning of the war.

No doubt political expediency will have it cut and run a long time before the stated aims.

Let's be honest, at some point the USA is going to stop paying the insurgents not to attack US troops and then we'll see whose side the Sunni militias are on. My guess it won't be on the side of the US.

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/18/2008 7:28:25 PM   
pollux


Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
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Firm:

Ya know, you really can't blame these poor people for being completely clueless as to what's happening in Iraq, post-surge.

After all, they depend on a largely left-biased news media to tell them what to think, and it appears that the media has been mostly ignoring events in Iraq for quite some time now.  That should've been their first clue that something was up, of course, but give 'em a break -- they have years of conditioning to overcome.




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(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/19/2008 12:52:20 AM   
meatcleaver


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I liked this quote your link myself

While Washington's attention has been fixed elsewhere, military analysts have watched with astonishment as the Iraqi government and army have gained control for the first time of the port city of Basra and the sprawling Baghdad neighborhood of Sadr City, routing the Shiite militias that have ruled them for years and sending key militants scurrying to Iran. At the same time, Iraqi and U.S. forces have pushed forward with a long-promised offensive in Mosul, the last urban refuge of al-Qaeda. So many of its leaders have now been captured or killed that U.S. Ambassador Ryan C. Crocker, renowned for his cautious assessments, said that the terrorists have "never been closer to defeat than they are now."
 
A deal was struck with the Sunni militias, the army didn't take control through military means, large parts of the Sunni Militias have been paid off with dollars, not beaten into submission. They are still there and once the dollars run out there is no telling whose side the militias will take. That was from the mouth of a senior American Army Officier on the ground after a film crew watched American soldiers and Iraqi soldiers handing out bribes. Maybe buying people off is a better way to gain peace than maiming and killing people but the potential enemy is still there. The officer also said they'll be in Iraq for years to get near to there goal. Even if al-Mahdi Army is beaten in a straight fight (which they should be with American fire power), they will probably melt back into the population and resort to terrorism, then there are still many other enemies in Iraq and many of the 2.7 million refugees hate the Americans and their puppet regime as much as they hate the Iraqis that made them refugees in the first place. Flood any area with armed troops and you'll pacify it while your there but you only displace the problem.

And no, I'm not relying on the leftwing media, just about everyone who've been to the Iraq and have seen it for themselves except the Bush administration and its groupies, say the same thing. Even

Rightwing paper with rightwing American owner

Baghdad car bomb blamed on Iranian backed Shias
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article4163675.ece

And 2.7 million Iraqis still displaced, normality is decades away.

Oh, and I notice that Afghanistan is hotting up while Iraq cools down. I wonder if there is a link.

And watch oil prices climb again as Bush keeps pounding his chest about Iran. Typical Bush policy, not thought through. He can't get his gun out of his holster quick enough to stop himself from shooting himself in the foot.

This was all so not necessary, just half a country had to vote a cretin into power and the whole world suffers.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/19/2008 12:58:40 AM >


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(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq - 6/19/2008 5:18:46 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

they have years of conditioning to overcome.



 Too funny.

Because, of course... the war advocates don't  .

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(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 20
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