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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/1/2008 2:52:00 AM   
N4SDChastity


Posts: 327
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline 		    My "assumption" is that the OPs post, along with those of several others in this thread, reek of being afraid of some underlying, unspoked, baseless...  SOMEthing.  And, as I mentioned, I am not the only one who seems to have picked up on it.

This thing the OP (at least, if not you, as well) fears will not go away, I *fear*.  "IT" is here to stay.  It is not Wright & His or His church and their "racism."  Although I believe that will stay, too.

come on...  what is it? 

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/1/2008 4:28:38 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

quote:

Rule quote:

No, actually it is not.  Think back to 2004 and the issue of John Kerry's Catholicism.  Several Catholic Bishops in various regions said on record that Catholics should not not vote for him because of his support of abortion and stem-cell research.  There was even one who suggested Kerry be banned from the church for his views.  To his credit, he did not let it influence him, though he easily could have.  A candidate's religious influence, right or wrong, IS an issue.


Influences are everywhere, rule. Or haven't you noticed ? What's far more relevant is a person's character and history of how they deal with issues in a sea of influence. By your standard, everyone would be suspect to those influences and judged according to each of our own. A rather sticky wicket, eh ?



Yes, you are right, but Obama has gone on record saying how much his experiences with Trinity shaped his views on a variety of issues.  I'm not saying that's all for the bad, I'm saying that questioning it is healthy. 

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Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/1/2008 5:46:33 AM   
Sanity


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You know, I get the exact same feeling about everybody who ever says anything negative about McCain, or his campaign, or his platform.

Specifically, I get the feeling that they hate the elderly...


quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity

   My "assumption" is that the OPs post, along with those of several others in this thread, reek of being afraid of some underlying, unspoked, baseless...  SOMEthing.  And, as I mentioned, I am not the only one who seems to have picked up on it.

This thing the OP (at least, if not you, as well) fears will not go away, I *fear*.  "IT" is here to stay.  It is not Wright & His or His church and their "racism."  Although I believe that will stay, too.

come on...  what is it? 



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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/1/2008 7:01:59 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		          Well why not quit beating around the bush, Chas?  Just play the card, if that is all you have left.

         I see a different fear at work in this conversation.  A fear of losing that "special" status, of being held to exactly the same standard as everyone else.  I see a fear of accountability and responsibility, and a desperate clinging to an excuse and a separatist identity.  I see a fear of losing the security blanket.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/1/2008 3:36:59 PM   
N4SDChastity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


You know, I get the exact same feeling about everybody who ever says anything negative about McCain, or his campaign, or his platform.

Specifically, I get the feeling that they hate the elderly...


quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity

  My "assumption" is that the OPs post, along with those of several others in this thread, reek of being afraid of some underlying, unspoked, baseless...  SOMEthing.  And, as I mentioned, I am not the only one who seems to have picked up on it.

This thing the OP (at least, if not you, as well) fears will not go away, I *fear*.  "IT" is here to stay.  It is not Wright & His or His church and their "racism."  Although I believe that will stay, too.

come on...  what is it? 




At this point BOTH have an equal chance of garnering MY vote.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/1/2008 3:45:50 PM   
N4SDChastity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

                  I see a different fear at work in this conversation.  A fear of losing that "special" status, of being held to exactly the same standard as everyone else.  I see a fear of accountability and responsibility, and a desperate clinging to an excuse and a separatist identity.  I see a fear of losing the security blanket.



Ahhhh...  FINALLY, someone admits it.  The REAL fear you all have.  Transposing them upon others does nothing to negate the reality that, change IS coming.  Your "special" status will, in a generation or two, at most, be gone.  That sound that underpins the background noise in the chorus that is the status quo...  What traits will you attribute to MY pathos, that are in reality based in your cultural panic, to describe THAT sound?


I am curious, when you had your cultural castration, what country were you in?

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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/1/2008 6:46:40 PM   
cjan


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Status: offline 		Free Huey Newton !!!

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/1/2008 7:09:05 PM   
domexplorer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

           Well, I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, Domex.  I'm going to pass on your invitation to visit Trinity.  I sat through enough Jeremiah Wright sermons, drawing my own conclusions about those reports, to get a pretty good feel for the place.  Now if you want to toss in a couple first-class plane tickets, a nice hotel, and dinner in one of those Chicago steakhouses I've heard are so good, I might reconsider.

     You said:


quote:

ORIGINAL: domexplorer

The internet has great potential to assist us to exchanging ideas and learning from those from different backgrounds and bridging traditional gaps.  The lady nor I said anything about skinheads, panthers, or whites.  Just that the text did not sound racist to us. 




      The text did not sound rascist?  It mentions "Black" in each of the 12 points.  I think we must define "rascist" in very different ways.  Perhaps you'll find this another bothersome segue that isn't covered in your talking points, but would it sound rascist to you if it said "white" instead?

      Spare me the standard crapola about needing a hate component.  Value number 8 requires adherents to reject integration into society and blames all the ills of the community on malicious outsiders (would the "they" be whitey in this case?).  That's textbook hate propaganda.

    I don't raise the other things to change the subject, I make comparisons, offer similar ethical questions through a different lense.  Forest instead of tree, all the chess pieces, or a whole bar of hotties, instead of one great pair of tits.  Shouldn't the internet be a place to see the big picture?  Do you apply the same standards of behavior to other race-focused organizations?  If not, wouldn't that make you the rascist?

         In the words of Reverend Wright, "I am still in the text."
Mentioning black or white or jewish or hispanic etc. no many how many times is not in and of itself racist. Al provided you with 3 good definitions of racism.  Did you bother reading them?

No it would not be racist to me if black was replaced with white.  I do admit that it would sound a little odd.  Hispanic or Native American or even Jewish would seem to fit better since each of these groups have experienced real racism and devised techniques for dealing with its physical and psychological impact.

Not being able to purchase a house where you can afford to based on race is racist. Exclusion from unions based on race is racism.  Jim crow laws were racist. White only drinking fountains  and bathrooms were racist. Not being allowed to sit at the front of the bus because of your race is racism. Exclusion from sports based on race not ability is racism. Teaching white supremacy in the highest institutions is racism. If you feel saying the word black 22 time is the same as these then yes we have a different view of racism. This is the forest  that you don't see.

Americans of every color succesfully fought to rid the country of this kind of legal, government supported, institutionalized racism. I am proud of my generation for doing so.  Your generation is dealing (I think succesfully) with bigoted minded individuals. Look out.

I feel a sense of humanity and community when I visit the Arab Museum or the Hispanic Cultural Center.  Not fear.

If you know of a white race-focused organization concerned with healthy community development (not white supremacy)  I would love to know about it.  No sarcasm.

One of the things that keeps me attached to this community is its emphasis on integrity. Not that everyone has it but it seems to be an ideal.  You cause me to question yours. Your misquote of "value number 8" seems deliberate.  It said nothing about rejecting integration into society.  It asked to resist "middleclassdom".   The intended audience knows that this means not just accumulating stuff but also providing leadership to those less fortunate.







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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/1/2008 8:37:48 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       "Cultural castration"???  I haven't heard that particular term before, and it certainly wouldn't be descriptive of my experiences overseas.  I met far more great people than bigotted assholes.  But I met enough assholes to widen my perspective on such things.  I said "gaijin."  Google it

       Special status?  None of that here, Chas.  Members of the majority don't get to blame everything on discrimination.

       Then you get really sneaky, and try to shift it from a discussion of particular race issues, to making race and culture synonomous.  Not going to happen.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/1/2008 9:56:52 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		        Ok, Domex, let's have a look-see at number 8, shall we?


Disavowal of the Pursuit of “Middleclassness.”  Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must be able to identify the “talented tenth” of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor’s control.

Those so identified are separated from the rest of the people by:


  1. Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.
  2. Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.
  3. Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which, while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of “we” and “they” instead of “us.”
  4. So, while it is permissible to chase “middleclassness” with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method – the psychological entrapment of Black “middleclassness.”  If we avoid this snare, we will also diminish our “voluntary” contributions to methods A and B.  And more importantly, Black people no longer will be deprived of their birthright: the leadership, resourcefulness and example of their own talented persons.

http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html


          If this is not a rejection of social integration, what is?  It shrieks of victimhood, and demands that race loyalty be the highest value.

          Now I read over this a couple of times, lemme see if I've got it straight.  The ghetto/hood/barrio/whatever is a purposely created socioeconomic concentration/prison/death camp, inhabited by the best and brightest, destined to lead the accountants and engineers to the promised land?  I'm not buying it. 

        You are very correct that we have broken down the institutional bigotry, and now need to outgrow and outlast the individuals.  How does perpetuating such divisions help that?

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 1:53:44 AM   
N4SDChastity


Posts: 327
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline 		    Herry,

No need to google.  I am more thsn familiar with the term gaijin.  Yes, you used it, but you did not frame its use contextually.  It is conceivable that you were in one of the many "chinatown" or "little tokyo" type areas.  You want obscure racial references, gweilo?  I have them, con brio.

So, you attempt to equate you being ostracized in a foreign country with my being ostracized in Indiana...  Yeah, I can see where those two have similarities.

And, as far as your holding up #8, from TUCC as an example of "victimhood," and social-dis-integration..., false!  It identifies the methedologies utilized by oppressor cultures over those they have subjugated.  In this case, a few hundred years of the practice.  Of course, you want everyone to ignore the realities of our past...  Tuskeege...  Never happened, right?  I suppose slavery was voluntary.  Indigenous Americans gave themselves smallpox, killed off their own food supplies, and wandered into them there reservations because they would rather live in squalor, without hope or a future (go ahead, complain about the tax-free casinos, I'll wait...)  What?  Will your next assertation be that Dr. King had it comming?  Denial ain't just a river in Selma, mon frere.

And, are you suggestion that race and culture are autonomous from each other; mutually exclusive?  Wow!

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 5:12:11 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

  Yes, actually, I have had conversation stop when I walked into a place where I wasn't the right color, and was told they didn't serve my kind.  Not a pleasant experience.  Gaijin.  Such events only deepened my resolve to not make race a factor in how I view the people I share the world with.

    


Would have been more believable had you claimed the called you 'keto' or 'eta', or said something about 'burakumin' and started laughing at you before telling you to take out the trash.

Gaijin has long been the polite term for foreigners and expatriates, highly unlikely that anyone so willing to violate Japanese cultural identity on politeness would have chosen that term...it is a recent PC media affectation that saying it offensive.

Are you sure you didn't just wander into someone's private soiree?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 7:06:24 AM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       It's not my job to dumb it down for you, Chas.  There is no automatic extra-credit for ticking the 'african-american' box.

      Tuskeegee has been done to death around here, and those who want to wave that flag keep right on waving it no matter how many times it's pointed out that far more chilling experiments were done on other groups, and as if the current spread patterns of AIDS don't indicate that aware infected persons keep right on spreading the disease anyway.

      Loved the snide assumptions about my opinion of Indian gaming.  Actually, my only gripe there would be about how various tribal records have been sealed to avoid outside claims to a piece of the pie.  My grandmother certainly could have used the checks in her last years.

      Please elaborate on how my reading of #8 is false.  Which "classic methodologies" exactly?  Machiavelli?  And how does this account for all the people who have gotten the fuck out of such environments?

      And doesn't your insistence that race and culture must equate only perpetuate the most hateful of stereotypes?  All (insert racial group here) are (insert cultural activity here)?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 7:09:59 AM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		        Polite term, Alum?  It's specifically racial, and loaded with negative connotations. 

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 4:05:20 PM   
N4SDChastity


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Joined: 2/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      It's not my job to dumb it down for you, Chas.  There is no automatic extra-credit for ticking the 'african-american' box.



News flash, *I'm* not African American.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

    Tuskeegee has been done to death around here, and those who want to wave that flag keep right on waving it no matter how many times it's pointed out that far more chilling experiments were done on other groups, and as if the current spread patterns of AIDS don't indicate that aware infected persons keep right on spreading the disease anyway.



Military background, so I've had MY share of *experimental* concoctions injected into me by the Government.  You're only a small intuitive leap away from my assumption about your forthcoming Dr. MLK comment...  What's stopping you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Loved the snide assumptions about my opinion of Indian gaming.  Actually, my only gripe there would be about how various tribal records have been sealed to avoid outside claims to a piece of the pie.  My grandmother certainly could have used the checks in her last years.



Same here, so we agree on at least 1 item, at least.  There is hope for you yet...  Not much, I'd say, but some,. from someone, somewhere, I'm sure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Please elaborate on how my reading of #8 is false.  Which "classic methodologies" exactly?  Machiavelli?  And how does this account for all the people who have gotten the fuck out of such environments?



Stating commonly known facts does not constitute a rejection of social integration.  At least not in THIS dimensional realm.  Maybe in the one you come from.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     And doesn't your insistence that race and culture must equate only perpetuate the most hateful of stereotypes?  All (insert racial group here) are (insert cultural activity here)?



I didn't say, or even imply that they were equal; only that they are relational.  It is your steadfast refusal to step quietly away from broad characterizations that has us in this debate in the first place.  Your insistence that all members of TUCC are racists, remember?  Maybe you need to sit down and review your doctrine, again, it seems you missed the part where not everybody has to sign up for everything everyone says in their church.

Peace!

I'm OUT!!!

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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 4:55:43 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Polite term, Alum?  It's specifically racial, and loaded with negative connotations. 


It means 'from a foreign place' in the sense of 'outsider', or 'not from around here', and can be used for Japanese who have come from elsewhere, as well as for white, black, red, and brown people...how specifically racial is that? 

It can be delivered in a lot of ways both offensive or not depending on the intent, but the origin was a distinction for those outsiders that had never been seen before.  A good analogy is John Wayne calling someone 'Pilgrim'... could be good, could be bad...
http://www.bartleby.com/61/84/G0008450.html

And it still doesn't support the assertion that you have ever experienced anything remotely like what a non-white person in America goes through when they are on the receiving end of real racism.

Your story is no more relevant than someone saying that all those people who have suffered from floods and tsunamis and typhoons should shut up, because you got caught in the rain without an umbrella.

quote:

Tuskeegee has been done to death around here... 


If you call pretending that the government never infected innocent black women and children without their knowledge 'done to death', then Yeah... in the same way that Wright is an outrageous nutcase for quoting Peck's 'chickens come home to roost' apres 9/11 comments, but Peck is 'perceptive'.....

quote:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another. 


And black people wanting to avoid a repeat of this documented fate is 'textbook hate propaganda' exactly how?
Where are you getting your textbooks?


Dress it up in all the made up definitions and logical fallacies you want, there simply isn't enough syrup to disguise this stack of crapola as pancakes.

Black liberation theology is about liberation through positive motivation.  If you want to criticize a 'kill whitey' message, look elsewhere, they are out there.

White supremacist Stormfront rhetoric wrapped in similar terms is about a fundamental fear, or dislike of difference based on perceived inferiority and prejudice.... in other words....

Textbook racist hate propaganda.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/2/2008 5:50:15 PM >

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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 5:57:13 PM   
Griswold


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Why the fuck does anyone give a flying cow shit what Obama says about his preacher...thinks about his preacher....believes about his preacher....when....he's already made fairly clear....

It ain't his fucking preacher no mo?

Why the hell don't all you peeps just do your own research...and make your own decisions....instead of bleating all this bullshit?

Read the papers....do your own fucking homework....dig in.

And then vote.

(And by the way...I'm a Republican....so you can assume from that what you want....it still won't tell you who I'm voting for).


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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 6:18:15 PM   
N4SDChastity


Posts: 327
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

    Polite term, Alum?  It's specifically racial, and loaded with negative connotations. 


It means 'from a foreign place' in the sense of 'outsider', or 'not from around here', and can be used for Japanese who have come from elsewhere, as well as for white, black, red, and brown people...how specifically racial is that? 



He didn't pick up on it, probably because of his limited experiences, but my calling him "gweilo" actually WAS an epithet.  I'll bet he still thinks I need to be IN his head, to be IN his head...  The psuedo-educated ARE a funny "race/culture," are they not?

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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 7:32:28 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		Lessee here... CL seems to be claiming that the "Black Value System" is inherently racist. For that to be true, "Black" would have to be a race. Now, AFAIK, there is no specific genetic profile which would identify an individual as "Black"; therefore, there is no such thing as the "Black Race".

Why then would CL believe that there IS a "Black Race"?

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 8:04:15 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

   Polite term, Alum?  It's specifically racial, and loaded with negative connotations. 


It means 'from a foreign place' in the sense of 'outsider', or 'not from around here', and can be used for Japanese who have come from elsewhere, as well as for white, black, red, and brown people...how specifically racial is that? 



He didn't pick up on it, probably because of his limited experiences, but my calling him "gweilo" actually WAS an epithet.  I'll bet he still thinks I need to be IN his head, to be IN his head...  The psuedo-educated ARE a funny "race/culture," are they not?



Why.. its almost like you can...see right through them...

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Profile   Post #: 160
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