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RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 8:36:37 PM   
N4SDChastity


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Gweilo, "see-through," I get that...  REALLY, I do!!!

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 8:37:09 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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       Well I hope you aren't completely out, Chas.  We finally seemed to be getting somewhere.  You didn't try to equate race with culture?  Back up in #146, you seemed to be using the terms interchangeably.  And I have not denied relationships can and do exist between them, only that they are very different things. 

     With Obama looking like a lock on the Dem nomination, this country is probably going to have a conversation about race and racism such as we haven't had in a long time.  90% of it will likely be crap, but some productive conversation might spill over.  I imagine we will be talking about Secret Service agents who don't get service in restaraunts, and Federal investigations concluding that some gov't employees aren't rascists, they are assholes to everybody.

      I'll hope to see you "upstairs" sometime.  Have a great Fourth.


       

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to N4SDChastity)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 9:14:47 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
       I haven't meant to be ignoring you here, Alum.  It seems like every time I sit down at this 'puter, I have to get right back up again, or the phone rings.  Since it seems to be bothering you though, I guess the puppy can wait a little bit longer for his dinner.

      No.  Those odd little moments in Japan were not my formative experience.  They were a source of some insight into the larger issue.  Feel better now?

      I'd cuss you back a bit, but XI might be fluent...

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/2/2008 9:52:33 PM   
charlestonscmilk


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This may or may not fit in here... but  love Tim Wise. Let me repeat, I LOVE TIM WISE.
He is a man who gets it! He is smart and has his finger on the pulse of America. He is a gentleman and a scholar. He makes me glad we live in the same country.Please read this. 


An Open Letter to Certain White Women Who Are Threatening to Withhold Support from Obama in November 2008

Your Whiteness is Showing

By TIM WISE
This is an open letter to those white women who, despite their proclamations of progressivism, and supposedly because of their commitment to feminism, are threatening to withhold support from Barack Obama in November. You know who you are.
 

I know that it's probably a bad time for this. Your disappointment at
the electoral defeat of Senator Hillary Clinton is fresh, the sting is new, and the anger that animates many of you - who rightly point out that the media was often sexist in its treatment of the Senator - is raw, pure and justified.
That said, and despite the awkward timing, I need to ask you a few questions, and I hope you will take them in the spirit of solidarity with which they are genuinely intended. But before the questions, a statement if you don't mind, or indeed, even if (as I suspect), you will mind it quite a bit.




First, for those of you threatening to actually vote for John McCain and to oppose Senator Obama, or to stay home in November and thereby increase the likelihood of McCain winning and Obama losing (despite the fact that the latter's policy platform is virtually identical to Clinton's while the former's clearly is not), all the while claiming to be standing up for women...
 For those threatening to vote for John McCain or to stay home and increase the odds of his winning (despite the fact that he once called his wife the c-word in public and is a staunch opponent of reproductive freedom and gender equity initiatives, such as comparable worth legislation), all the while claiming to be standing up for women...
 For those threatening to vote for John McCain or to stay home and help ensure Barack Obama's defeat, as a way to protest what you call Obama's sexism (examples of which you seem to have difficulty coming up with), all the while claiming to be standing up for women... Your whiteness is showing.
When I say your whiteness is showing this is what I mean: You claim that your opposition to Obama is an act of gender solidarity, in that women (and their male allies) need to stand up for women in the face of the sexist mistreatment of Clinton by the press. On this latter point--the one about the importance of standing up to the media for its often venal misogyny--you couldn't be more correct. As the father of two young girls who will have to contend with the poison of patriarchy all their lives, or at least until such time as that system of oppression is eradicated, I will be the first to join the boycott of, or demonstration on, whatever media outlet you choose to make that point. But on the first part of the above equation - the part where you insist voting against Obama is about gender solidarity - you are, for lack of a better way to put it, completely full of crap. And what's worse is that at some level I suspect you know it. Voting against Senator Obama is not about gender solidarity. It is an act of white racial bonding, and it is grotesque.
If it were gender solidarity you sought, you would by definition join with your black and brown sisters come November, and do what you know good and well they are going to do, in overwhelming numbers, which is vote for Barack Obama. But no. You are threatening to vote not like other women - you know, the ones who aren't white like you and most of your friends - but rather, like white men!  Needless to say it is high irony, bordering on the outright farcical, to believe that electorally bonding with white men, so as to elect McCain, is a rational strategy for promoting feminism and challenging patriarchy. You are not thinking and acting as women, but as white people. So here's the first question: What the hell is that about? And you wonder why women of color have, for so long, thought (by and large) that white so-called feminists were phony as hell? Sister please... Your threats are not about standing up for women. They are only about standing up for the feelings of white women, and more to the point, the aspirations of one white woman. So don't kid yourself. If you wanted to make a statement about the importance of supporting a woman, you wouldn't need to vote for John McCain, or stay home, thereby producing the same likely result--a defeat for Obama.

You could always have said you were going to go out and vote for Cynthia McKinney. After all, she is a woman, running with the Green Party, and she's progressive, and she's a feminist. But that isn't your threat is it? No. You're not threatening to vote for the woman, or even the feminist woman. Rather, you are threatening to vote for the white man, and to reject not only the black man who you feel stole Clinton's birthright, but even the black woman in the race. And I wonder why? Could it be...? See, I told you your whiteness was showing.
And now for a third question, and this is the biggie, so please take your time with it: How is it that you have managed to hold your nose all these years, just like a lot of us on the left, and vote for Democrats who we knew were horribly inadequate - Kerry, Gore, Clinton, Dukakis, right on down the uninspiring line - and yet, apparently can't bring yourself to vote for Barack Obama? A man who, for all of his shortcomings (and there are several, as with all candidates put up by either of the two major corporate parties) is surely more progressive than any of those just mentioned. And how are we to understand that refusal - this sudden line in the proverbial sand - other than as a racist slap at a black man? You will vote for white men year after year after year - and are threatening to vote for another one just to make a point - but can't bring yourself to vote for a black man, whose political views come much closer to your own, in all likelihood, than do the views of any of the white men you've supported before. How, other than as an act of racism, or perhaps as evidence of political insanity, is one to interpret such a thing?
See, black folks would have sucked it up, like they've had to do forever, and voted for Clinton had it come down to that. Indeed, they were on board the Hillary train early on, convinced that Obama had no chance to win and hoping for change, any change, from the reactionary agenda that has been so prevalent for so long in this culture. They would have supported the white woman - hell, for many black folks, before Obama showed his mettle they were downright excited to do so - but you won't support the black man. And yet you have the audacity to insist that it is you who are the most loyal constituency of the Democratic Party, and the one before whom Party leaders should bow down, and whose feet must be kissed? Your whiteness is showing.

Look, I couldn't care less about the Party personally. I left the Democrats twenty years ago when they told me that my activism in the Central America solidarity and South African anti-apartheid movements made me a security risk, and that I wouldn't be able to get clearance to be in some parade with Governor Dukakis. Yeah, seriously. But for you to act as though you are the indispensible voters, the most important, the ones whose views should be pandered to, whose every whim should be the basis for Party policy, is not only absurd, it is also racist in that it, (a) ignores and treats as irrelevant the much more loyal constituency of black folks, without whom no Democrat would have won anything in the past twenty years (and indeed the racial gap favoring the Democrats among blacks is about six times larger than the gender gap favoring them among white women, relative to white men); and (b) demonstrates the mentality of entitlement and superiority that has been long ingrained in us as white folks - so that we believe we have the right to dictate the terms of political engagement, and to determine the outcome, and to get our way, simply because for so long we have done just that.
But that day is done, whether you like it or not, and you are now left with two, and only two choices, so consider them carefully: the first is to stand now in solidarity with your black brothers and sisters and welcome the new day, and help to push it in a truly progressive and feminist and antiracist direction, while the second is to team up with white men to try and block the new day from dawning.
Feel free to choose the latter. But if you do, please don't insult your own intelligence, or ours, by insisting that you've done so as a radical political act.
--------------------------------------
Tim Wise is the author of: White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son (Soft Skull Press, 2005), and Affirmative
Action: Racial Preference in Black and White (Routledge: 2005).

[Mod Note:  email address removed/font reduced]




< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 7/2/2008 10:38:15 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/3/2008 2:30:22 AM   
N4SDChastity


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I neither know, or care who Tim Wise is, or, for that matter what his racial background is, but I think he is off the mark.  IMO., those who intend to vote Mcain or abstain, rather than vote for Obama, are just a buncha spoiled britches who can't stand losing.  I know of more than a handful who are OTW.  Are we to label them assimilationists or oreos because they can't take a spanking and chose to want to "show you," rather than vote their ideology?  Tim may feel justified in drawing such a very public racial line-in-the-sand, but his words do nothing to help the situation.  Name-calling isn't how you get someone to understand the wrongness of their actions.  The points he makes AFTER accusing them of being "white" are far more salient, and he could have easily gone down that road WITHOUT calling them racist, I think.

Nope.  Tim is wrong in his approach, and showing HIS "whitness," meethinks.

(in reply to charlestonscmilk)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/3/2008 4:38:11 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     I haven't meant to be ignoring you here, Alum.  It seems like every time I sit down at this 'puter, I have to get right back up again, or the phone rings.  Since it seems to be bothering you though, I guess the puppy can wait a little bit longer for his dinner.

    No.  Those odd little moments in Japan were not my formative experience.  They were a source of some insight into the larger issue.  Feel better now?

    I'd cuss you back a bit, but XI might be fluent...


Oh, I suspect that if you were as fluent in another language as you would like to imply, you could have shown it without cussing..... or Googling. 

You've already shown that what you misunderstand about Asian culture would fill volumes.... 'Gaijin' specifically racial?  Riiiiight. Next you'll be saying that calling a Chinese person a 'sea turtle' is racist.

And that is still an irrelevant derail from your bogus assertions about black liberation theology.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/3/2008 4:42:20 AM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/3/2008 4:55:34 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlestonscmil


An Open Letter to Certain White Women Who Are Threatening to Withhold Support from Obama in November 2008

Your Whiteness is Showing

By TIM WISE
This is an open letter to those white women who, despite their proclamations of progressivism, and supposedly because of their commitment to feminism, are threatening to withhold support from Barack Obama in November. You know who you are.
 


First, for those of you threatening to actually vote for John McCain and to oppose Senator Obama ........................
 For those threatening to vote for John McCain or to stay home and help ensure Barack Obama's defeat, as a way to protest what you call Obama's sexism (examples of which you seem to have difficulty coming up with), all the while claiming to be standing up for women... Your whiteness is showing.
When I say your whiteness is showing this is what I mean: You claim that your opposition to Obama is an act of gender solidarity, in that women (and their male allies) need to stand up for women in the face of the sexist mistreatment of Clinton by the press. On this latter point--the one about the importance of standing up to the media for its often venal misogyny--you couldn't be more correct. As the father of two young girls who will have to contend with the poison of patriarchy all their lives, or at least until such time as that system of oppression is eradicated, I will be the first to join the boycott of, or demonstration on, whatever media outlet you choose to make that point. But on the first part of the above equation - the part where you insist voting against Obama is about gender solidarity - you are, for lack of a better way to put it, completely full of crap. And what's worse is that at some level I suspect you know it. Voting against Senator Obama is not about gender solidarity. It is an act of white racial bonding, and it is grotesque.
If it were gender solidarity you sought, you would by definition join with your black and brown sisters come November, and do what you know good and well they are going to do, in overwhelming numbers, which is vote for Barack Obama. But no. You are threatening to vote not like other women - you know, the ones who aren't white like you and most of your friends - but rather, like white men!  Needless to say it is high irony, bordering on the outright farcical, to believe that electorally bonding with white men, so as to elect McCain, is a rational strategy for promoting feminism and challenging patriarchy. You are not thinking and acting as women, but as white people. So here's the first question: What the hell is that about? And you wonder why women of color have, for so long, thought (by and large) that white so-called feminists were phony as hell? Sister please... Your threats are not about standing up for women. They are only about standing up for the feelings of white women, and more to the point, the aspirations of one white woman. So don't kid yourself. If you wanted to make a statement about the importance of supporting a woman, you wouldn't need to vote for John McCain, or stay home, thereby producing the same likely result--a defeat for Obama.



Did you ever consider the possibility that maybe these women just do not agree with Obama's positions?  I know it's a radical concept, because we all know that anyone who disagrees with the black man must surely be a racist. 

You, like so many others, want to turn this into a racial debate instead of focusing on the issues.  I fear we're in for a long, tiresome election season.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 7/3/2008 5:08:30 AM >

(in reply to charlestonscmilk)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/3/2008 6:55:41 AM   
TheHeretic


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       Sure, Alum.  "Other" than the master/perfect race would be a specifically racial term.  With a level of fluency that is directly related to my blood alcohol level, and having picked up a regional dialect, Google wouldn't help much anyway.

       Speaking of unwillingness, why are you so determined to keep harping on the discredited argument that Tuskeegee was about "deliberately" infecting the partners of the subjects?  Granted, it's some mad scientist shit, but wouldn't tracking the spread be a legitimate aspect of such a study?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/3/2008 6:56:16 PM   
N4SDChastity


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BTW, for clarity's sake, aside from the "racist" accusations within the Tim-whosis-name's monologue, he has many valid points.  I just think they would have carried much more weight w/o throwing sheets over a significant portion to the democratic voting bloc.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/3/2008 10:05:04 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      Sure, Alum.  "Other" than the master/perfect race would be a specifically racial term.  With a level of fluency that is directly related to my blood alcohol level, and having picked up a regional dialect, Google wouldn't help much anyway.


Oh, do tell... I'll bet it is a Sooper Seekrit regional dialect where 'gai' doesn't come from the Chinese 'wai' and mean 'external'...

And you are conveniently leaving out the fact that Japanese call Japanese who have travelled from foreign countries gaijin as well.   'Specifically racial' my ass.  How exactly do you figure ignoring reality will make it go away?

quote:


      Speaking of unwillingness, why are you so determined to keep harping on the discredited argument that Tuskeegee was about "deliberately" infecting the partners of the subjects?  Granted, it's some mad scientist shit, but wouldn't tracking the spread be a legitimate aspect of such a study?


As long as people keep saying that anyone is lying about Tuskegee being a case of the government deliberately infecting black people, I'll be happy to set the record straight.
None of those women or children had anything to do with tracking the study, if you bothered with facts, they would show that the claimed goal was the fatal effects of syphillis, not epidemiology.

From the already 'done to death' link.

The data for the experiment was to be collected from autopsies of the men, and they were thus deliberately left to degenerate under the ravages of tertiary syphilis—which can include tumors, heart disease, paralysis, blindness, insanity, and death. “As I see it,” one of the doctors involved explained, “we have no further interest in these patients until they die.”
...The study was meant to discover how syphilis affected blacks as opposed to whites —the theory being that whites experienced more neurological complications from syphilis, whereas blacks were more susceptible to cardiovascular damage. How this knowledge would have changed clinical treatment of syphilis is uncertain.
Although the PHS touted the study as one of great scientific merit, from the outset its actual benefits were hazy. It took almost forty years before someone involved in the study took a hard and honest look at the end results, reporting that “nothing learned will prevent, find, or cure a single case of infectious syphilis or bring us closer to our basic mission of controlling venereal disease in the United States.”
http://www.tuskegee.edu/Global/Story.asp?s=1207586


Your assertion that it was a legitimate deliberate infecting of black people, is a bell you aren't going to be able to unring.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/4/2008 1:08:28 AM   
TheHeretic


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      Funny what you run across when you revisit a subject for the first time in a long time.  In 1932, the Public Health Service, working with the Tuskegee Institute, began a study to record the natural history of syphilis in hopes of justifying treatment programs for blacks(bold added).  That will make a nice example of what good intentions the road to hell begins with.

      Continuing the study after penicillen made the whole thing moot...  Fucking mad scientists.  As of May, 2007, 19 surviving family members are still receiving compensation.

   (Quote and factoid from the CDC)

     But let's not pretend there is something special about this.


     Radiation testing    Unethical experimentation abounds. 


     


     

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/4/2008 6:13:54 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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So you've gone from claiming that the Tuskegee experiment never infected anyone, to claiming that it was legitimate and neccessary to infect the women and unborn children in order to track the spread of the disease, to pinning the legitimacy on euphemisms about killing 400 black men to see how they died. (And how many infected white men and their families were studied by comparison?)

I wanted to continue watching someone play these semantic games in support of racism, I'd go over to StormFront.  Since I have no such interest in playing your games, I'l leave you to them.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/4/2008 6:16:36 AM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/4/2008 8:19:10 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
Status: offline
      That works out nicely, since this pretense that Tuskegee was some sort of stand-alone rascist atrocity of unethical research and that collateral damage is the same as direct intent was old before I came in.

      Talk about playing semantics.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/8/2008 12:41:59 PM   
domexplorer


Posts: 11
Joined: 1/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       Ok, Domex, let's have a look-see at number 8, shall we?


Disavowal of the Pursuit of “Middleclassness.”  Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must be able to identify the “talented tenth” of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor’s control.

Those so identified are separated from the rest of the people by:


  1. Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.
  2. Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.
  3. Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which, while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of “we” and “they” instead of “us.”
  4. So, while it is permissible to chase “middleclassness” with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method – the psychological entrapment of Black “middleclassness.”  If we avoid this snare, we will also diminish our “voluntary” contributions to methods A and B.  And more importantly, Black people no longer will be deprived of their birthright: the leadership, resourcefulness and example of their own talented persons.

http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html


         If this is not a rejection of social integration, what is?  It shrieks of victimhood, and demands that race loyalty be the highest value.

         Now I read over this a couple of times, lemme see if I've got it straight.  The ghetto/hood/barrio/whatever is a purposely created socioeconomic concentration/prison/death camp, inhabited by the best and brightest, destined to lead the accountants and engineers to the promised land?  I'm not buying it. 

       You are very correct that we have broken down the institutional bigotry, and now need to outgrow and outlast the individuals.  How does perpetuating such divisions help that?
This is about blacks rejecting consumerism and integrating with themselves.  IT AIN"T ABOUT YOU.  Get over it already. You misquote and misinterpet.  I first thought honestly.  Now I wonder.

_____________________________

Wisdom: The ability to see the past and the future in any given event

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Why Obama still needs to explain Trinity Church aff... - 7/8/2008 1:00:15 PM   
domexplorer


Posts: 11
Joined: 1/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

                 I see a different fear at work in this conversation.  A fear of losing that "special" status, of being held to exactly the same standard as everyone else.  I see a fear of accountability and responsibility, and a desperate clinging to an excuse and a separatist identity.  I see a fear of losing the security blanket.



Ahhhh...  FINALLY, someone admits it.  The REAL fear you all have.  Transposing them upon others does nothing to negate the reality that, change IS coming.  Your "special" status will, in a generation or two, at most, be gone.  That sound that underpins the background noise in the chorus that is the status quo...  What traits will you attribute to MY pathos, that are in reality based in your cultural panic, to describe THAT sound?


I am curious, when you had your cultural castration, what country were you in?

Thanks for getting it out...Talk about projection. Wow.

_____________________________

Wisdom: The ability to see the past and the future in any given event

(in reply to N4SDChastity)
Profile   Post #: 175
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