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The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 12:58:08 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Reading the sadism thread got me thinking about where sadists draw the line and if they ever fear crossing it or getting so lost in the moment they crossed it and had regrets or repurcussions from it.  How do they keep "the beast" at bay? 

It sounds to me like sadism, for some, is a buildup of sorts. You do something to get a reaction and that reaction creates a desire in you to see more, do more intense and sadistic acts.  If there were no laws prohibiting it how far would a sadist go?  How does conscience play a role in allowing oneself to go only so far? i have done some reading on serial killers, many of whom are very sadistic, and a common element is that after the first kill the rush and thrill they get out of it creates a desire for them to do it again and to also go further than they had before.  It's like a thirst they can never quench, once unleashed that can never go back.  They need more and more to get that same rush or thrill just like a drug addict needs more of the same drug to get that same rush they got the first time they used.  Do sadists ever fear this kind of thing (on a smaller scale perhaps) will happen to them?  Is there a thrill in walking this thin line?

i knew a sadist years ago who would only play with his sub in a club as he was afraid he would go too far and she would end up dead.  He admitted he was only held back by the notion that he did not want to spend his life in jail and that if he could get away with it he would go far beyond the limits any person with a conscience would go.  Where does sadism go from being an expression of ones desires to being dangerous and, dare i say, sick?  i have heard many sadist friends say that "the beast" (as they termed it) scared tham at times during play - that primal lust building up to a point they could not control how far they would go. 

i think there is a definite difference between sadists that inflict pain irregardless of whether the sub enjoys it, in spite of if she enjoys it, only when she enjoys it, and when she definitely doesn't want or enjoy it. As a masochist i want all of them, which is hard to find.  i don't want a sadist to take me only as far as i am willing to go all the time. i want to know he took something from me that was all for himself and that he got satisfaction from it.  If all i ever get is what i want how is that 1. fair, 2. fulfilling and not boring in the long run. 

All responses welcomed sadist, masochist, dom, sub, slave, switch

< Message edited by velvetears -- 6/21/2008 1:00:26 PM >

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 1:07:04 PM   
MistressSybella


Posts: 163
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Status: offline 		I am all about control and do not like "accidents." So, without effort, my limits are accidents and permanent damage. I also like to toy with limits, teetering on the edge or pushing them at whim. If we always stopped when the bottom wanted, where's the fun in that?

That said, I have never experience some kind of addition or uncontrollable urge to take things to the point of no return. I can't imagine ever being that out of control...it's just not like me.

Miss 'Bella
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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 1:11:01 PM   
Deliena


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From: Darlington, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Well I think the line is drawn between someone who is criminally insane (as in the case of serial killers who are often also sadists) and someone who is not.  But since I am not a sadist it would be mere supposition for me to discuss how that line is formed in the mind of those who are.  When I dominate I do include pain play but it's the reaction to pain play that I get off on rather than the process of inflicting pain on someone else.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 1:17:55 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

If there were no laws prohibiting it how far would a sadist go? 



A serial killer may lack empathy; an emotional sadist is more than capable of empathising. You can strip some bare, yet wish to tend to that vulnerability.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 1:28:44 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		To me it's all about ethics and sticking to them.  If I honestly was concerned I'd go beyond the point of ethical behavior, I just wouldn't go there.

Do I WANT to go there sometimes?  Absolutely.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 1:33:12 PM   
earthycouple


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Status: offline 		Hmmm....I don't consider myself as having a beast within that must be kept at bay until a maso appears at my doorstep.  I love to do things like bite, paddle, cane and claw, because it releases something in me.  I have no desire to kill anyone.  I have no desire to harm anyone.  Hurt?  Oh yes.  But never harm, that's where I draw the line.  Harm is permanant and detremental.  I would never want to hurt someone who doesn't want to be hurt, either.  Another line I do not draw.  I'll take a maso anywhere he or she wants to go, so long as I know I'm not harming. 

No, no beast.  It's all about control, mutual want, and lack of actual harm for me.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 1:50:02 PM   
softness


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Status: offline 		 Have just gotten off the phone with DV ... He is far too ill to respond Himself (a cold I think, sounds just terrible and obviously made worse because I am refusing to fly over 10,000 miles to heat some chicken soup and suck the virus out of Him) .. anyway He said I should just cut and paste from an answer He gave elsewhere

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkVictory

That really depends.  I find that it's a wide open arena of demand and expectation, that varies from day to day and from partner to partner.

At one extreme, I'm the kind of 'Top' that can service a bottom's desire for extended foreplay and sensual play that very gradually moves from light spanking, tickling, and digital fingering into a soft and sustained spanking, and from there into a long buildup to a hard ass whupping.  This end of the spectrum is me being a service top, and what I'm in that interation for is the approval and gracious appreciation of the bottom.  I'm doing it, not for my sadistic desires, but to provide my partner with a good evening.  It's much like watching a chick flick.

Somewhere in the middle range is where I can begin to let a tiny bit of the demon out to play, within a tightly confined and negotiated 'scene' or defined arena of play.  This is where I am free to be cruel and hurtful to the bottom, but there's nothing about the scene that transcends her momentary ability to process.  I can see her suffer, I can enjoy that suffering, but in the end I am clear that I need to make certain that she's feeling safe and cared for.

Towards the left side, the dark side of my sadism, I am playing with a partner who is not a masochist.  She's there to suffer for me, not because she's going to process it into pleasure, but because ... for whatever fucked up sick bitch reason she has ... she wants to be hurt and suffering.  With that kind of partner, I'm free to be dark.  I'm free to laugh at her pain, mock her agony, and allow myself to be genuinely and physically aroused by her torment. 

Near the far dark side, I am playing with a submissive and not a bottom.  She's only there becuase I desire it.  She's terrified and near panic with what's happening.  She's free to scream her fear, and I'm not going to stop.  I can really let myself loose, threatening her, scaring her....  Using chain not rope, making it so she *actually* cannot escape at all... putting her in hideously uncomfortable positions, bent forward leaning on an iron railing, chained in place... driving sharpened stainless steel knitting needles through her outer labia, pinning her to the spanking pony by her cunt... burning chinese joss herbs on the ends of the needles, and threatening her with the cattle prod to the anus if she disturbs the burning herbs by moving as I begin to sodomize her.  Then, of course... using the cattle prod on her anyway... laughing as she screams and sobs.  Forcing her jaws open with the dental gag, and throat raping her... intentionally taking her to the edge of passing out again and again as she pukes and screams.

What do I want from *that* kind of partner?  I want her soul.

(edited ...)

I'm on the phone with softness, and she rightly points out that this last example is not my evil side.  It's still within bounds.  What, as a sadist I *want* to do is have a blindfolded, gagged, beautiful, successful, intelligent woman flopping around on my floor with two dislocated arms/shoulders, the webs of her toes nailgunned to the floor... as I sexually torment and abuse the living fuck out of her.  The details are best left to the imagination. 

Also, soft's not in use with me as a bottom, but as a submissive... so you puzzle it out.


His conscience probably has a lot to do with how far He will go. Pragmatically though, its a judgement about what the relationship would survive.

My only real, active control of our relationship, is whether I remain in it or not.  Sir therefore has to make a decision, is He willing to risk the health of the relationship for a particular activity? Because though He owns a doormat, He doesn't own a stupid one. The doormat will get up and leave if she feels the relationship is an unhealthy and destructive one.

I might well be wrong - but I think the limits Sir puts on His sadism have more to do with "Will breaking her shoulders once every 3 months leave her unable to starch and probably give her the idea she might not be safe with me and result in her jumping on the first plane back to England thus leaving me slutless and neck deep in laundry?" than "Is is right to break her shoulders? Does it make me a bad person?"

just guessing

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 2:02:21 PM   
Cuffkinks


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Status: offline 		   I could take the easy way out of this and say something like..."If I can't control Myself...yadda...yadda...yadda..." But I won't.
I'm all about reactions. Or as I tell My little girl..."Trigger and response." I'm not primarily a sadist, but I definitely have a sadistic side. That side sometimes comes to the surface and wants to play. When that happens, I want to see how far I can go. With My girl, and sometimes with Myself. There was one time where a play scene went bad and I had to immediately come out of My headspace and take care of My little girl. So far, that has only happened once. It might happen again, as I push her further and entertain My sadistic side. I trust Myself to be able to come back to caregiver immediately if I feel she is in genuine distress. It pleases Me that she endures for Me. It also pleases her that she is giving Me what no one else can.
  I think there is a thrill to walking that line that you (OP) refer to, but I don't see Myself losing My grip on reality and going over and actually doing her harm. (Of course, no one ever does.) My first concern is always her well-being. There's a difference between hurting and harming. I do hurt her, and I enjoy it. But I don't ever want to harm her. Also...My sadism is not always just giving pain. I play with her mind as well and can be just as sadistic psychologically as I can physically. Sometimes, that's more fulfilling, because it's not as obvious.

Oh yeah, one more thing...

"i don't want a sadist to take me only as far as i am willing to go all the time. i want to know he took something from me that was all for himself and that he got satisfaction from it."

That's pretty fucking hot! 

 
 


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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 2:07:53 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

His conscience probably has a lot to do with how far He will go. Pragmatically though, its a judgement about what the relationship would survive.

My only real, active control of our relationship, is whether I remain in it or not.  Sir therefore has to make a decision, is He willing to risk the health of the relationship for a particular activity? Because though He owns a doormat, He doesn't own a stupid one. The doormat will get up and leave if she feels the relationship is an unhealthy and destructive one.

I might well be wrong - but I think the limits Sir puts on His sadism have more to do with "Will breaking her shoulders once every 3 months leave her unable to starch and probably give her the idea she might not be safe with me and result in her jumping on the first plane back to England thus leaving me slutless and neck deep in laundry?" than "Is is right to break her shoulders? Does it make me a bad person?"

just guessing


What prevents him than is more knowing he will loose you if he does certain activities and he still needs you.  What happens when the day comes (if it ever does) that he doesn't "need you"?  Will his conscience than kick in to prevent him from unleashing on you or will he leave you devestated, crumpled and broken on the doorstep? 

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 2:15:15 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressSybella

I am all about control and do not like "accidents." So, without effort, my limits are accidents and permanent damage. I also like to toy with limits, teetering on the edge or pushing them at whim. If we always stopped when the bottom wanted, where's the fun in that?

That said, I have never experience some kind of addition or uncontrollable urge to take things to the point of no return. I can't imagine ever being that out of control...it's just not like me.

Miss 'Bella
ServeMeWell



No one likes accidents but they do happen.  i suppose an accident a sadist could have is loosing control and going too far. i can only guess it would surprise and perhaps shock them at what they were capable of.  How can anyone be sure how far their desires or lust will take them - and a sadists desire is to hurt and inflict pain?

i do understand what you are saying about control being important - but just the fact that anyone makes keeping it important tells me something - they fear they will loose it.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 2:21:57 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deliena

Well I think the line is drawn between someone who is criminally insane (as in the case of serial killers who are often also sadists) and someone who is not.  But since I am not a sadist it would be mere supposition for me to discuss how that line is formed in the mind of those who are.  When I dominate I do include pain play but it's the reaction to pain play that I get off on rather than the process of inflicting pain on someone else.


i think serial killers get off on reaction as well - they love the fear they illicit in their victims.  i realize they are sociopaths who lack the ability to feel remorse, guilt or empathy.  What they do have in common (some sadists not all) is the need for it to go further in order to feel that same thrill.  As a maso i can relate as this happens on the other end of the spectrum too.  What keeps me from going over the edge is easy - i don't want to die.  It hasn't always kept me from harm though - thank god not permanent.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 2:27:30 PM   
missturbation


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quote:

Reading the sadism thread got me thinking about where sadists draw the line and if they ever fear crossing it or getting so lost in the moment they crossed it and had regrets or repurcussions from it.  How do they keep "the beast" at bay?

I fear crossing the line wherever that may be whenever i play with Sir. I do get so lost in the moment he could do anything and i would be powerless to stop him. Have we ever crossed the line? Quite possibly for some, for us no. Will we ever cross the line? Yes i think some of the things we talk about / plan would definately be crossing the line for some. For us once done it will no longer be, if that makes sense.
Sir keeps 'his beast' at bay very well. Far better than i keep SSC in my head.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 2:31:54 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

If there were no laws prohibiting it how far would a sadist go? 



A serial killer may lack empathy; an emotional sadist is more than capable of empathising. You can strip some bare, yet wish to tend to that vulnerability.


i would take an unempathetic sadist who posessed a conscience over an empathetic one with no conscience (hard to see how that could even develop).  In fact an unempathetic dom might be desireable to some, you know the "hard assed dom". 

You mentioned vulnerability and that can create different reactions in different people, different sadists.  Sadistic serial killers exploit vulnerable people, they are easy targets.  Are you suggesting sadists, or even the majority of them, want to protect and "tend to" their sub/slaves vulnerability?   i would imagine the feeling of power and control in seeing their sub vulnerable might bring out a host of things the sadist had no idea even lurked in their psyche.

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 2:34:30 PM   
softness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

What happens when the day comes (if it ever does) that he doesn't "need you"? 


While He needs to eat, wear clean clothes, and get His cock sucked ...He will always need me. Seriously, men always need a clean starched shirt, home baked sour dough bread, and a mouth around their cock. Being in this for the ironing, has manifold fringe benifits.


quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Will his conscience than kick in to prevent him from unleashing on you or will he leave you devestated, crumpled and broken on the doorstep? 


In the case of DV .. if He found He didn't need me around anymore ... I would be out on my arse "so hard the bounce would impress a basketball player" ... we certainly would not be playing because He would be utterly disinterested in me.
At some points in our relationship I certainly hope I will be devastated, crumpled and broken on the doorstep ... I am kind of a sick bitch that way.

In answer to your direct question about what He would do ... am sorry to say we will have to wait for Him to say for Himself. I have no idea.

< Message edited by softness -- 6/21/2008 2:35:23 PM >

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 2:42:58 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
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Status: offline 		I've used the analogy of the Beast several times in the past to communicate the details of my own desires, but in all honesty, to take it too literally, I think is a mistake and doesn't do the reality any justice, at least for me.

It's not some wild, uncontrollable force that threatens to possess me at any moment of time, but just a desire on par with my sex drive. I use the same adult self control that I use to control my sex drive to control my sadistic desires and it isn't a whole lot harder to control. It's a voice in the back of my mind and that's where it stays. I don't have trouble going too far or crossing my ethics anymore than I have trouble keeping myself from fucking every woman I see.

The Beast is a great way to describe the way it manifests itself inside of me, but to associate it with being something "wild" and "hard to control" is false.



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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 2:44:19 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

To me it's all about ethics and sticking to them.  If I honestly was concerned I'd go beyond the point of ethical behavior, I just wouldn't go there.

Do I WANT to go there sometimes?  Absolutely.


Can you explain a bit more about wanting to go there yet your ethics keep you from going there.  Is it really as simple as saying i have this ethic and that will keep me from crossing any line, especially in light of the fact that you admit you want to go there? 

i am never that sure of my ethics as i know i am human and human beings make mistakes and run into circumstances beyond which they can always control. 

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 2:51:31 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: earthycouple

I'll take a maso anywhere he or she wants to go, so long as I know I'm not harming. 



What about where you want to go?  Is it always the same? 

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 2:59:16 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuffkinks

    I think there is a thrill to walking that line that you (OP) refer to, but I don't see Myself losing My grip on reality and going over and actually doing her harm. (Of course, no one ever does.) 



That's the crux of what i am interested in learning about.  Would crossing the line necessarily be loosing your grip on reality?  i wonder how many sadists would admit to crossing the line and having ennjoyed it immensely at the cost of the subs well being, even if they were terribly remorseful and felt shame for loosing that control, even temporarily.  No one wants it to happen or expects it to, but i imagine it does happen. 

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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 3:00:28 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
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Status: offline 		Um... how do I keep "the beast" in check? Well, here's an answer for you: I do BDSM... with a consenting partner. That seems to keep "the beast" quite happy, thank you very much! 

I'm also sorry to say that the idea that somehow, as a sadist, I'm going to somehow want to move on to "bigger and better things" is a bit off the mark as well. (They say that about BDSM in general, you know... but I've yet to hear that any of the folks whom I know have been playing heavily for the last 25 years, that they are now doing life for chainsawing a girl scout troop. (Or anything more scandalous than that they've been divoriced, and remarried to a more understanding partner, for that matter.)

The questions themselves are flawed.

(gong) Try again!



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RE: The conscience of a sadist - 6/21/2008 3:08:10 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I fear crossing the line wherever that may be whenever i play with Sir. I do get so lost in the moment he could do anything and i would be powerless to stop him. Have we ever crossed the line? Quite possibly for some, for us no. Will we ever cross the line? Yes i think some of the things we talk about / plan would definately be crossing the line for some. For us once done it will no longer be, if that makes sense.
Sir keeps 'his beast' at bay very well. Far better than i keep SSC in my head.


Interesting point - whose line is being crossed and where is that line drawn.  i once played with a dom i had know a long time, we had become good friends and he often talked about "stuff" he would do to me if we ever got together. He knew i was a masochist and talked about sadistic things he would love to engage in.  Never thought we would get the chance real life to meet but we did. We played, had a great time (i thought) and later when he went back home (he lived in Canada) he told me i needed professional help because (his words) i liked to be brutalized.  i guess i crossed his line

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