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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/28/2008 7:11:50 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Suppose they were Kenneth Starr's feet?




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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/28/2008 7:13:51 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

is kenneth starr a total pig then?


Let's just say I'm not his biggest fan.

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/28/2008 7:13:58 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

Suppose they were Kenneth Starr's feet?

why -  is kenneth starr a total pig then?

ahh, level, youre opinions are always worth a read. and erm, im not a complete dufass ya' know, just a little bit alot of the time.


Starr was one of the ringleaders trying to impeach President Clinton; not a beloved figure over here by many.
 
And thank you for what you said; trust me, I have no doubt that you are not anywhere near doofusville.

< Message edited by Level -- 6/28/2008 7:15:01 PM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/28/2008 7:19:04 PM   
Evility


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Status: offline 		I think much of this is in the eye of the beholder. Submission (and by association domination) are such self defined terms or conditions as to be rendered almost meaningless by personal definition. I happen to agree with what you have said but that makes this position only valid in my own home and yours. Like any other relationship people tend to seek their own level.

In some cases the submissive walks in and submits and that is that. That doesn't seem to happen very often. Much more often she has a framework of things she will and will not do and seeks to find a dominant who is a match for that criteria.

Either he genuinely enjoys working within those parameters or acquiesces to them (which in itself is a form of submission). Either way - as long as an agreement is reached and both parties are happy I don't think it's really necessary to apply absolutes even if you do happen to believe in them in your own corner of the world. I don't expect people to do things my way any more than I would agree to do things their way.




< Message edited by Evility -- 6/28/2008 7:23:08 PM >

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/28/2008 8:42:12 PM   
Maya2001


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quote:

To me an "ultimate form of submission" would involve something that the submissive isn't really wild about. Such as willingly surrendering a limit.


I have hard limits and soft limits .. my hard limits being things I though extremely distasteful  or  morally  wrong the number are extremely few....I have many soft limits ..things I find uncomfortable  or that scare me  that maybe in time with the right person I may be willing to try.    my number of soft limits have decreased since I started a year ago ....does that mean I have reached ultimate submission  because I have overcame some limits???  ...which limit became the ultimate one???  does that mean my growth as a sub is now finished since I achieved the ultimate???  or does it mean I have simply progressed and became more open  to more things

or does it only apply to hard limits only ... so does scat play    or  agreeing to beastiality  become the measure of my submision  even if I feel it it extremely distastefully/offensive  or does participating in sub for sale (prostituting myself for my dom) that I find morally objectionable  become the ultimate in submission......... If a dom  has no respect for my hard limits then he better not waste his time with me because   I will not past his test of  submission.. .. nor will I want to prove my subliness in such a manner because my hard limits were never meant to be tested they are areas I have decided I never wanted to go ever


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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/28/2008 8:46:47 PM   
DaddyDomsgirl


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Status: offline 		utilmate submission to me is really being able to submit to someone give them your all and do your very best to please them with everything you do in your life and for them

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/28/2008 8:58:59 PM   
blackbeard519


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It doesn't have to be any of these.  There is no "Standard of Ultimate Submission".  The point of my OP is that if someone is wildly turned on by submitting to, doing, etc. etc. something for their dominant, is calling that an "Act of Ultimate Submission" appropriate?

I did not (and do not) wish to denigrate anyone elses ideas of what submission is to them personally.

Acts of submission are deeply personal and intimate expressions.  One is no less valid than the other. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

quote:

To me an "ultimate form of submission" would involve something that the submissive isn't really wild about. Such as willingly surrendering a limit.


I have hard limits and soft limits .. my hard limits being things I though extremely distasteful  or  morally  wrong the number are extremely few....I have many soft limits ..things I find uncomfortable  or that scare me  that maybe in time with the right person I may be willing to try.    my number of soft limits have decreased since I started a year ago ....does that mean I have reached ultimate submission  because I have overcame some limits???  ...which limit became the ultimate one???  does that mean my growth as a sub is now finished since I achieved the ultimate???  or does it mean I have simply progressed and became more open  to more things

or does it only apply to hard limits only ... so does scat play    or  agreeing to beastiality  become the measure of my submision  even if I feel it it extremely distastefully/offensive  or does participating in sub for sale (prostituting myself for my dom) that I find morally objectionable  become the ultimate in submission......... If a dom  has no respect for my hard limits then he better not waste his time with me because   I will not past his test of  submission.. .. nor will I want to prove my subliness in such a manner because my hard limits were never meant to be tested they are areas I have decided I never wanted to go ever


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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/28/2008 9:00:55 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackbeard519
It doesn't have to be any of these.  There is no "Standard of Ultimate Submission".  The point of my OP is that if someone is wildly turned on by submitting to, doing, etc. etc. something for their dominant, is calling that an "Act of Ultimate Submission" appropriate?

Yes.  In fact for many many masters, if they aren't fulfilled by it, they wouldn't consider it submission at all.

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/28/2008 9:15:53 PM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackbeard519
The point of my OP is that if someone is wildly turned on by submitting to, doing, etc. etc. something for their dominant, is calling that an "Act of Ultimate Submission" appropriate?

We don't call anything an "act of ultimate submission."  It is considered submission to Him whenever I do anything I have been told or am expected to do.  It's that simple.  He runs the show.  I do what He wants, when He wants, how He wants.  That's submitting to His will and authority.  If it makes me tingle or makes we cringe, it's all the same.  Obedience is expected and given.  Just because I happen to love certain things, that doesn't mean I'm submitting any less than when I do things I don't like so much. 

Along those same lines, Master has never been one to have me "submit to" things just because they're unpleasant to me.  For instance, making me eat a plate of fried eggs would be a horrendous torture for me as I loathe eggs.  He could order me to do it, I would and then I'd puke my toenails up.  Yet it would bring Him zero pleasure.  Therefore, He doesn't do it.  His viewpoint is that there are simply tons of things He desires that He can make me do.  Why waste time and energy putting me through ordeals that He gets nothing from?  

Submission in this house is obedience carried out with a pleasing attitude.  Simple as that........................luci 

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 12:27:51 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackbeard519

I've seen this phrase mentioned a few times.  Sometimes in a way that makes me think it is the poster's biggest turn on.

...and I don't mean being aroused by submission, I mean by the act itself.

When the act itself gives you pleasure, is it really an ultimate form of submission?

To me an "ultimate form of submission" would involve something that the submissive isn't really wild about.  Such as willingly surrendering a limit.



Hi blackbeard.
 
I want/need my Dom to respect my 'hard limits' and tread very, very lightly where my 'soft limits' lie.  Any other means of relating to me would lead to disaster -- I don't want to ever have to  return my collar.
 
If this means I'm not the 'utimate submissive' then so be it.  Life is not a beauty pagent.  We should all be seeking our joy, in our own way.
 
candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 6/29/2008 12:28:25 AM >

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 8:19:25 AM   
lally3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackbeard519


It doesn't have to be any of these.  There is no "Standard of Ultimate Submission".  The point of my OP is that if someone is wildly turned on by submitting to, doing, etc. etc. something for their dominant, is calling that an "Act of Ultimate Submission" appropriate?




if theyre turned on and its fabulously, euphorically hot then calling it an act of ultimate submission could work... if

a. it took guts to get there,
b. total trust in their D
c. and everything in the scene was planned out and worked out so incredibly well it would be hard to imagine it ever being repeated again, largely because of a) and partly because nothing is ever quite as seminal as the first time around.

why must the fact of a sub being turned on negate from the ultimate submissive expression... theres no reason to assume it couldnt, given that trepidation, reluctance, fear, uncertainty could all be part of that scene too.

to be honest what goes on 'down there' is often in direct contradiction to what goes on in my head - i can be and often am, genuinely surprised to find myself wetter than a wet weekend in wales.

the psychology of the phrase might suggest that martyrdom and extreme hardship and absolutely no pleasure should be derived before using it.  for the sub to then come out of such a situation and call it 'ultimate submission' - well frankly after that i think she deserves to call it whatever the hell she likes! 

< Message edited by lally3 -- 6/29/2008 8:20:58 AM >

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 8:35:01 AM   
ftmyersartist


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Status: offline 		I think if there is an "Ultimate form of submission" it is an internal thing. It is when someone admits to themself that they need to submit. Not want to or get off on doing it but need to. That it is a part of them. When they do that they really submit to their own inner needs. I've found it is only after that point that the submissive is at peace with their role. All the kinks and service and play aspects after that are just icing on the cake not a definition of their submission, just expressions of it.

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 9:12:42 AM   
daddysliloneds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackbeard519

To me an "ultimate form of submission" would involve something that the submissive isn't really wild about.  Such as willingly surrendering a limit.


akin to ultimate frisbee, the ultimate form of submission would be to take said submissive, run over them with your truck to flatten them, bend their flattened body into a circular shape(forming it like a frisbee) and then try tossing them into little boxes and holes at your local park

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 10:32:11 AM   
softness


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Status: offline 		Dv and I once talked about throwing a dinner party with some old world "sweet breads" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweetbread as a starter ... that combined with fresh surgical type scars on me as I serve the meal... and a satisfied smile from DV as He discusses how I made the ultimate gift of submission ...

We wondered how many people would laugh and eat ... and how many people would have to have a good hard think about it before tucking in .. and who would scream .. throw themselves from the table .. and run for their car.

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 10:36:28 AM   
daddysliloneds


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Status: offline 		do it, do it, do it!!!!! that was great!!!!!!!!!!

my son just said that you should do it, but not mention the ultimate submission part until after people had eaten just to see how many of them would throw up!

< Message edited by daddysliloneds -- 6/29/2008 10:40:57 AM >

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 11:44:37 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackbeard519

To me an "ultimate form of submission" would involve something that the submissive isn't really wild about.  Such as willingly surrendering a limit.



Ultimate form of submission for me never involved the doing of something that the submissive doesn't like or wild about.  It is more the manner in which they carry out what is required.. whether they like it or not.  Doing things with Grace and Dignity in such a manner you wouldn't know if they like it or not.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 12:04:39 PM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackbeard519

I've seen this phrase mentioned a few times.  Sometimes in a way that makes me think it is the poster's biggest turn on.

...and I don't mean being aroused by submission, I mean by the act itself.

When the act itself gives you pleasure, is it really an ultimate form of submission?

To me an "ultimate form of submission" would involve something that the submissive isn't really wild about.  Such as willingly surrendering a limit.


No. Ultimate submission is ultimate submission IMHO.
If it's submission that goes beyond a limit it's masochism. Just my two and six worth.


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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 12:37:26 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I feel like I should somehow incorporate this into the ultimate Collarme question, but I'm not sure I have it in me right now.


Turns out I did.


Not only that, but I wound up starting a thread on the ultimate Collarme problem.

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No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 1:20:00 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackbeard519

To me an "ultimate form of submission" would involve something that the submissive isn't really wild about.  Such as willingly surrendering a limit.



To me this doesn't make sense. That means that to be best submissive I could possibly be, I'd need to pick someone who doesn't share any of my tastes so that everything I do for him will be this great act of submission.

I'm just not here to become a matyr. Nor is Valyraen here to own someone who doesn't enjoy the things he does. Which is more appealing, the one who begs him to have sex with her or finds him repulsive but has sex with him anyway because that makes it more "submissive"?

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

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RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 1:29:03 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Status: offline 		I have to agree with the OP here -- to me "ultimate submission" means yielding to that set of circumstances that is truly difficult. To me, watching the servant who struggles to yield, and yet manages to retain hir grace in doing so -- to me, that is the "ultimate form of submission".

Submitting to the things that one enjoys is just mental masturbation, IMO.

Firestorm

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