RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4] 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 1:34:29 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I have to agree with the OP here -- to me "ultimate submission" means yielding to that set of circumstances that is truly difficult. To me, having a servant watching the servant who struggles to yield, and yet manages to retain hir grace in doing so -- to me, that is the "ultimate form of submission".

Submitting to the things that one enjoys is just mental masturbation, IMO.

Firestorm

So what do you do if your submissive enjoys doing the things that you like having them do? Come up with random tasks that you may not even enjoy just to see them struggle? I mean I can yield pretty peacefully to most things - most of which I can't are against the law and for which I would turn him in myself. That can have a sadistic appeal for the people involved but so can being hung by hooks.

I suppose he could start demanding that I violate my religious beliefs but, IMHO, that would make him not worth serving since I was very clear coming in that my religion is important to me and he agreed to respect that. Among other issues, it would be going back on his word.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 61

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 1:49:09 PM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

So what do you do if your submissive enjoys doing the things that you like having them do? Come up with random tasks that you may not even enjoy just to see them struggle? I mean I can yield pretty peacefully to most things - most of which I can't are against the law and for which I would turn him in myself. That can have a sadistic appeal for the people involved but so can being hung by hooks.

I suppose he could start demanding that I violate my religious beliefs but, IMHO, that would make him not worth serving since I was very clear coming in that my religion is important to me and he agreed to respect that. Among other issues, it would be going back on his word.

Perhaps I should clarify -- thought I am trying to refrain from becoming long-winded. *chuckles* I think that there is no one -thing- that can qualify as "the ultimate submission"... I believe that in every relationship, there are sets of circumstances where something that one was able to do easily at some point (in particular on an emotional/spiritual level), no longer comes easily... There comes a point where the servant is inclined to rebel... to lash out... to become surly, or grumpy, or passive-aggressive, or disobedient or any other number of 'acting-out' type behaviors. As a dominant, you can even see it in their eyes at times -- that moment when they would much rather say "No!" than yield -- even if it is something they've yielded to a hundred times before. In that moment, a dominant occasionally is blessed to witness an internal process, during which the bond forged between the dominant and the submissive becomes, momentarily, the focus of that servant, and xhe makes a conscious choice to yield, where a moment before xhe only wished to fight. That is the moment that is "The ultimate form of submission"... that very moment when it would have been so much easier to argue or defy, and yet, that servant's submission has become such a cherished part of hir existence that it allows that servant to overcome the urge to revolt, and to yield, with a beauty and grace that -shows-, if the dominant is paying attention... and this is the most beautiful event that can occur in the process of claiming and yielding of a person's submission.

As you can see, it doesn't apply to anything in particular, and yet, applies to everything. It doesn't require destroying hard limits, nor does it require that the servant hate the task all the time -- only for that one moment where the choice is made to yield where it was clearly a difficult (if momentary) choice.

Firestorm

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 62

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 1:56:16 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

Well said, Firestorm.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 63

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 1:56:43 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

So... basically... the fact that I set my book down to make him a sandwich when I don't want to means more than the fact I became his in the first place, or that I've agreed to marry him and help bring his children into the world regarding my submission?

We don't buy it. While I'd happily agree that it applies to some relationships, I've seen my "vanilla" parents and friends do things they really didn't want to do because their partner wanted it. I've seen owners do things they didn't want to do because it meant the world to their submissives or slaves.

I may feel like I don't want to make that damn sandwich. I'm comfortable and my book is interesting. But in the end, getting up even when I don't want to is actually exactly what I want because it's the relationship that I sought out.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 64

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 2:16:30 PM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

To me the greatest form of "ultimate submission" would be the absolute in altrusim through service... that is - doing something (everything?) without it being known who accomplishes it - without hope or realization of recognition or praise - without anyone ever knowing that it what "you" who did "that".

... that is submission without expectation or remuneration through action, deed and/or recognition...

This is a greater example than any other I might think of - because 'even if' the submissive one were laying down their life for their dominant, there would be the understanding that their act would be recognized and therefore a rememberance and reverence for this act would remain and be played out/told again and again.

Complete altrusitic sacrifice (and, this can certainly be a lot less than the giving of one's life) is something to be held in very high esteem and (for me) represents the absolute and ultimate action of a fulfillment in personal submission.

"It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known"
~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: blackbeard519

I've seen this phrase mentioned a few times. Sometimes in a way that makes me think it is the poster's biggest turn on.

...and I don't mean being aroused by submission, I mean by the act itself.

When the act itself gives you pleasure, is it really an ultimate form of submission?

To me an "ultimate form of submission" would involve something that the submissive isn't really wild about. Such as willingly surrendering a limit.

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to blackbeard519)

Post #: 65

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 2:23:30 PM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

So... basically... the fact that I set my book down to make him a sandwich when I don't want to means more than the fact I became his in the first place, or that I've agreed to marry him and help bring his children into the world regarding my submission?

We don't buy it. While I'd happily agree that it applies to some relationships, I've seen my "vanilla" parents and friends do things they really didn't want to do because their partner wanted it. I've seen owners do things they didn't want to do because it meant the world to their submissives or slaves.

I may feel like I don't want to make that damn sandwich. I'm comfortable and my book is interesting. But in the end, getting up even when I don't want to is actually exactly what I want because it's the relationship that I sought out.

... and I would tell you that, depending on how much effort there was in you putting down that book, how valiantly you struggled against your inner urge to disobey or pout/sulk/etc., and how graciously you rose to the occasion, that would, indeed, be a reflection of the ultimate submission (of course, on the other hand, there is stomping out to the kitchen, grumbling under one's breath, making a half-assed sandwich, and basically making it apparent that the servant is -doing- the job... but under protest).

Just because a person chose a given way of life does -not- necessarily mean that xhe will always yield perfectly to the demands of that way of life. I can speak to that as a priest(ess) who has, on numerous occasions, struggled with the desire to abandon (if only for a moment, or an extra couple of hours of sleep) the commitment I made to my spiritual community for the momentary joy of whatever it was that was more enticing than the service I promised to my companions on the path we share. I would be less than honest if I said that I yielded perfectly, every single time, to the demands of my office... and I have been known (no laughing, please) to cringe and be a tad surly at some wee-hours wakeup call from a member of the congregation who is a 'repeat offender' of the "ass-crack-of-dawn-crisis". However, my role -has- allowed me the joy of recognizing that, even when one -chooses- one's path with care, there is still a particular beauty (and peace) in those occasions when one remembers that it is the relationship that should be the focus, not the momentary irritation -- and, in doing so, becoming able to go gracefully and serve, even though doing so was the furthest thing from one's current desire. I think, too, that in being able to recognize these challenges in myself, it has made me so much more aware of the same challenges in my servants... Less tolerant of their failures, at times, true -- but more blessed by their occasions of "ultimate submission".

Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 6/29/2008 2:25:44 PM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 66

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 2:34:04 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

... and I would tell you that, depending on how much effort there was in you putting down that book, how valiantly you struggled against your inner urge to disobey or pout/sulk/etc., and how graciously you rose to the occasion, that would, indeed, be a reflection of the ultimate submission (of course, on the other hand, there is stomping out to the kitchen, grumbling under one's breath, making a half-assed sandwich, and basically making it apparent that the servant is -doing- the job... but under protest).

As I said, in the end I want him to tell me to make a sandwich - which overpowers my want to stay in the bed. I have often said and still believe that being his is one of the most selfish things I do. If being submissive required me to do something that made someone else happy while not enjoying it myself, I would have married one of my non-dominant exes. By this logic, that would be the ultimate submission.

What you call ultimate submission we just call submission. We find nothing ultimate about doing what you agreed to do when you entered a relationship.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 67

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 2:35:39 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

So... basically... the fact that I set my book down to make him a sandwich when I don't want to means more than the fact I became his in the first place, or that I've agreed to marry him and help bring his children into the world regarding my submission?

Depends on how good the book was.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 68

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 2:37:26 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

So... basically... the fact that I set my book down to make him a sandwich when I don't want to means more than the fact I became his in the first place, or that I've agreed to marry him and help bring his children into the world regarding my submission?

Depends on how good the book was.

At the moment, one of Mary Roach's but sometimes a romance novel so you tell me.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 69

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 3:40:43 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Again I would echo Aquatic- what does it mean when vanilla partners do this for eachother simply because they love eachother and want to fulfill eachothers lives? There's no submission or domination there, but it's the exact same types of acts for the exact same motivations and the exact same struggles.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 70

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 3:54:05 PM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

I think, for me, I can only explain my thoughts on this from an existential perspective. To me, acts of submission are not limited to BDSM-related lifestyles, and are common -- it's just that in BDSM, we are more honest/open/direct about the exchange of power between people. I would have to say that, vanilla or sparkly-flavored, acts of -choosing-, at particularly difficult moments in time, to yield oneself to something that one does NOT want to yield to... even though one has chosen the path oneself... are sacred moments where our spirit/soul speaks more loudly than our ego/consciousness, and our existence listens. These are the ultimate acts of submission, where we acknowledge that what our ego wants conflicts with something more esoteric -- and that the world does not, in that moment, revolve around us. To me, I think there -is- no difference between the vanilla couple who go through similar choices and the consentual master and slave... except that the master and slave have taken the contract between them to a further expression on the line of possibilities for human interactions.

BDSM is special, in my opinion, only in its absolute and direct description of the inner workings of the relationships between people -- most people in vanilla marriages have their own perceptions of what that contract means, and only rarely do they sit down and discuss it honestly to make sure both parties see the relationship the same way. As a pastoral care provider, I can tell you that that is the -biggest- reason for failed relationships... the parties involved saw the relationship differently from the very beginning, and they didn't have the same goals for how that relationship was going to go. That is also my biggest draw to the D/s lifestyle -- I know the relationship I want, and D/s allows me to spell it out, so there are no misperceptions.

Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 6/29/2008 3:55:52 PM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 71

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 4:00:29 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

So basically my partner (vanilla) chooses to go the music store to pick me up a CD and loves going to the music store anyway is not having as sacred an experience if he did not like going to the music store?

I just don't see how that works. I don't want martyrdom, I don't want him to do anything that doesn't suit or please or fulfill him, THAT would make me DISpleased.

So does that mean he's never going to have those sacred experiences, because I do not find those things pleasing?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 72

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 4:06:23 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

I personally don't see BDSM as special at all. If you hang around on the forums you will see plenty of failed relationships because of the exact thing you notice in "vanilla" relationships - mismatched expectations and failure to effectively express expections.

However, I still completely disagree. Doing what I agreed to do is not some sort of ultimate act. When I do what I am paid to do when I don't want to, I am not being an ultimate employee, I'm being an effective one who deserves continued employement. Speaking generally, if I failed to do what I had agreed on in my relationship, I would be a bad partner - at least at that moment in time.

Furthermore, by this logic the one who never struggles with their submission is inferior to the one who must struggle every hour because they can never provide that "ultimate submission". What happens when the submissive no longer struggles?On top of that, what is it when my owner decides that he will do something he positively hates doing simply because he wants me to be happy? Is Valyraen suddenly submissive because he decided to go clubbing with me?

I'd still be interested in seeing the issue addressed of "If the less I enjoy it, the more submissive it is, then being with a non-dominant man to make them happy is the most submissive thing I can do".

Now, perhaps your ultimate pleasure as an owner is seeing your sub/slave struggle with it but that does not mean it applies to every relationship. I can think of a few on this board who refuse to own one who would hestiate even for a moment in obeying. They would not see this as ultimate at all, but a large flaw.

Edited for typo

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/29/2008 4:12:17 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 73

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 4:10:47 PM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

No... not what I meant at all-- again, it's a completely internal process. It has nothing to do with whether or not the dominant (or vanilla partner or whatever) or -anyone- outside of the person going through the internal conflict recognizes or acknowledges what has happened ... For myself, I simply feel blessed to have opportunities to witness this in myself and others...when I see it, it has real -value- for me, because I understand the struggle that that moment of choice represents, and know how bitter that struggle can be at times.

The whole point is that the process is both internal and internally -satisfying-. The -joy- comes from recognizing that you did something tough... and did it gracefully. Nobody else may even notice... though I'm betting dollars to gumdrops they'd notice if their mate/sub/whatever went stomping around, all passive-aggressive about whatever he/she had to do. I know that my colleagues have, on occasion, called me to task when I had a surly commentary about an upcoming pastoral-care encounter, firmly reminding me that I -chose- this life... of course, sometimes that's just another reason to grumble under one's breath -- which makes it all the more beautiful when I notice that I was able to let go of my dose of 'surlypuss' and embrace the path I've chosen completely.

Does that make any sense?

Firestorm

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 74

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 4:13:00 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

I think the problem is that you are universalizing your own personal experiences.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 75

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 4:23:51 PM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I think the problem is that you are universalizing your own personal experiences.

Actually, if you look back, I think I've been pretty consistent in saying "in my experience", and "to me"... though I have also tried to be open in clarifying where it appeared that someone had not grasped what I was trying to say.

Nothing in this life is perceived the same by any two people. I haven't said your ideas are wrong for -you-... just clarified your interpretations of what I was defining for -me-... something that I hope anyone would have the right to do.

Firestorm

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 76

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 4:29:44 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
The whole point is that the process is both internal and internally -satisfying-. The -joy- comes from recognizing that you did something tough... and did it gracefully.

*cut*

Does that make any sense?

Firestorm

It makes sense but I don't see what it has to do with BDSM specifically. I felt this way when I passed my black belt test in high school before I even knew I could have this sort of relationship. I feel this way when a painting I did makes it into a show or when I figure out how to fix something that was stumping Valyraen and I. Recently I felt this way when someone completely outside of the relationship noticed work I did and offered me a small commission to do it for them.

I can see being pleased with myself when I served a five course dinner at his command, or being able to endure a caning because he wanted it. But personally, I'm looking forward to when I don't have moments of "ultimate submission" where my obedience comes after an internal struggle. I know that while he appreciates me struggling through it for him, he'll be happier when I get the sandwich right away every time.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 77

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 4:38:12 PM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

Ultimate submission sounds like one of those Japanese endurance game shows where they stick them in a glass box in the middle of summer and watch them lose half their body weight.

Then they make them eat chilli powder or something and drag them across thorns.

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to Raechard)

Post #: 78

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 4:40:47 PM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I think the problem is that you are universalizing your own personal experiences.

That's what you do....that's what we all do. Unless, as usual yoou are trying to convince me your opinions are universal.
No doubt you will quip back.

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 79

RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission - 6/29/2008 4:43:16 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Prin- I'd worry less about my quipping and more about your stability. Was that sufficient?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 80

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4] 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: The Ultimate Form of Submission

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4] 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.094