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A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal products - 7/7/2008 6:13:44 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I saw a post on another thread where someone had stated being a vegitarian and not buying leather floggers.  That got me thinking, and this isn't to challenge those who do not advocate purchasing animal products; rather to understand how far people go in avoiding such purchases - Do you try to avoid all animal product purchases?  Is this limited to only those items you know to be animal products, or do you research your items before buying them?  Do you try to avoid products that have been tested on animals, as well, even if the product itself doesn't contain animal by-products? 

What are your thoughts and philosophies about such purchases?  I remember doing a study on vivisection for a class years ago, and I was so appalled I swore I would never buy any product which had practiced vivisection in its development, nor would I buy from any organization which had this practice, even if the product I was buying from them was "clean", so to speak. 

So I did some research to learn what companies and products I would need to avoid, and I soon came to discover that if I were adament about this new found philosophy, I would have to live an extremely different life, without medications, most bath and cleaning products, and most any other product, when it came right down to it.  It was disheartening to me, but I realized I had to pick and choose what I would boycott and what I had to compromise on, short of making the products myself.

So, out of interest, if you are an advocate of not using products that are linked to animals, where do you draw your line?  What do you avoid purchasing, and what do you purchase anyway?

I realize this is a very personal choice.  As for me, I do eat meat, but I avoid veal, and I try to eat free range whenever possible (after visiting an egg farm that made me shudder).  I don't buy cosmetics that have been developed with the use of vivisection.

The way I see it, it's like contributing to a charity.  You can't contribute to ALL charities, even if you'd like to, so you pick and choose which are most important to you. 

Thanks in advance for your replies!

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 6:15:02 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		Oh cool thread, questions I've always wondered about but never asked.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 6:20:08 PM   
ownedgirlie


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Status: offline 		Thanks camille,

I suppose on second thought, I shouldn't limit the OP to just vegi's and vegans - it's really for everyone, given that I eat meat but still try to be aware on some level.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 7:53:14 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
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Status: offline 		As Master Fire Maam says- plants are just easier to hunt.  We kill living beings constantly and necessarily as a means of survival.  I applaud someone trying to live ethically and with humane treatment for all- but it's usually a very arbitrary line made from emotional reaction rather than any sensible reasoned plan.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 8:43:55 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		There's a lot of different kinds of vegetarians and different sorts tend to view these issues differently.

Vegans are the most hardcore and are strictly no food derived from animals, no eggs, no milk or milk products. They usually reject wearing/owning leather and wool as well. A lot of times this lifestyle is based on animal rights beliefs rather than health concerns.

Some vegetarians won't eat animal flesh for health reasons but still consume milk or eggs and sometimes even fish. I've rarely seen this sort of vegetarian reject leather goods.


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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 8:46:52 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
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From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		God I hope chocolate doesn't need vivisection.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 8:57:04 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

God I hope chocolate doesn't need vivisection.


LMAO!  No shit.  I draw the line on dark chocolate.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 8:59:43 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Can't do it. Several reasons.

If you become vegetarian you die. The plant matter we digest is all soaked with fertilizer, and does not contain the mineral content we need to live. Animals have been successfully treated for the deficieancy diseases that killed them a while back, but now they get supplements. As we ingest the meat, we get the benefits of those supplements.

Also if you were to take it so far as to use no animal product at all, let's take a look at what you have to give up.

Gasoline, basically processed dinosaur.

Natural gas, a byproduct of this process.

Soap.

Anything made of plastic.

Most cosmetics.

Most personal body products like shampoo.

Your TV set your computer your PDA your telephone, the list goes on.

It can't be done in today's day and age.

T

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 9:18:19 PM   
ownedgirlie


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Status: offline 		Hi T.  You are absolutely right.  That's why I have posed the question to those who do give things up...what is it they give up?   Since no one can give up ALL animal based products, what are people giving up that they can give up?  And why?  This is a non-judgmental based question.  I'm interested in what those who do have principled standards on animal products think.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 9:23:40 PM   
YourhandMyAss


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Status: offline 		I really doubt that, because there's a LOT of vegitarians and if you died simply from beging a vegan or  vegitarian there'd be nobody left to teach others about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Can't do it. Several reasons.

If you become vegetarian you die

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 9:29:16 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		Actually Termy, depending on the manufacturer and their process, soap wouldn't necessarily be on the list.  DETERGENT would definately be on the list, as it is created using petrolium based mineral oil and mineral oil byproducts (goes back to that processed dinosaur thing).  Soap itself though is simply a combination of fats (oils of whatever sort - plant, animal, or mineral) and some sort of caustic.  Cosmetics, depending on your preferences, can either be mineral based or plant based - they don't necessarily require the use of lab produced petrolium byproducts in formulation.  Lotion - good quality doesn't require any sort of animal products or byproducts, and it's actually Better when no mineral oils are used in production.
 
And I say all of that with absolute assurance because that's My Industry - my business - is to make and sell such products.  Both myself and many of my competitors make vegan varieties of all of those types of products.  I also make non-vegan varieties, ranging from things that use milk (cruelty free, but obviously not animal byproduct free) to various types of animal fats for certain soaps.  (Again obviously not animal byproduct free, when you're talking about something like Beef or Buffalo Tallow soaps.)
 
In answer to the OP on my personal preferences :  As a consumer, I love leather.  I'm a carnivore by nature, and love a good surf-n-turf.  (I'd prefer it moo and atempt to wiggle off the plate, while we're at it lol) I love soaps and lotions that are milk based - they're incredibly good for the skin.
 
As a producer of various products that people might be concerned about whether they're animal byproduct free - I make sure I carry things that both do and don't have such.  When I look for suppliers for specifically animal based products like milk, cream, and animal fats, I give my business to those whom I know are using the most cruelty free methods possible in their Own production techniques.  (I would do that even if I were only producing for myself and close friends/family members - it's an ethical issue to me.)  I don't do animal testing, and I make every attempt not to purchase supplies from businesses that do or condone animal testing.  I see no use in it - animal physiology is Not human physiology and vise verse.  Besides, the doses that are typically given in animal testing are frequently so outlandishly high in proportion to body mass as to be both ludicrous and useless in any but the most abstract sense.  Ok, I take that back - I Do use "animal testing" to the extent that if I'm making a product such as a flea soap specifically for use on animals, the chances are I've used it on my own pets for quite a while to test whether it's doing the trick for a long time prior to offering it to the public.  Wouldn't really make much sense to test a product meant for animals on a human, any more than it makes sense to test products for humans on animals lol.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 9:31:00 PM   
RedMagic1


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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 9:31:17 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach
I Do use "animal testing" to the extent that if I'm making a product such as a flea soap specifically for use on animals, the chances are I've used it on my own pets for quite a while to test whether it's doing the trick for a long time prior to offering it to the public.  Wouldn't really make much sense to test a product meant for animals on a human, any more than it makes sense to test products for humans on animals lol.


Ha!  Great point!

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 10:05:51 PM   
Racquelle


Posts: 600
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Can't do it. Several reasons.

If you become vegetarian you die. The plant matter we digest is all soaked with fertilizer, and does not contain the mineral content we need to live. Animals have been successfully treated for the deficieancy diseases that killed them a while back, but now they get supplements. As we ingest the meat, we get the benefits of those supplements.

Also if you were to take it so far as to use no animal product at all, let's take a look at what you have to give up.

Gasoline, basically processed dinosaur.

Natural gas, a byproduct of this process.

Soap.

Anything made of plastic.

Most cosmetics.

Most personal body products like shampoo.

Your TV set your computer your PDA your telephone, the list goes on.

It can't be done in today's day and age.

T


1. Some of the most ancient continuously surviving cultures are vegetarian, and others almost entirely vegetarian.  Vegetarianism and veganism are perfectly heathful life choices.  There are vegetarians and vegans who don't get adequate nutrition because of food choices - just as there are carnivores who eat poorly.

2.  Perhaps we benefit from healthful supplements given to livestock, but we also suffer from the consumption of hormones and antibiotics regularly given to livestock.  Let us not forget exposure to diseases not previously heard of such as "mad cow", and then of course, there is the migration of resistant salmonella to chicken eggs and chickens which was virtually unheard of 20 years ago.

3.  Petroleum does indeed come from long dead plant and animal matter.  However, not dinosaurs, and, humans didn't ranch and slaugter livestock to create petroleum.

4. Tallow is a common ingredient in some soaps.  While it is easier to buy a bar of Irish Spring at Wal-Mart, perhaps, I have never found it difficult to find non-tallowate soaps.  I have been using Kiss-My-Face brand for about 30 or so years.

5.  I was unable to find any references to the common use of animal by-products in plastic manufacture.

6. MANY major cosmetics brands from high to low end do not test on animals and contain no animal products.  They aren't hard to locate in the least unless you find department stores, Target, the supermarket and drug stores to be difficult to get to.

7. Yeah, as to shampoo and other personal care products, see #6.

8.  Can you cite your sorce for information on animal byproducts used in the common manufacture of TV sets, computers and PDAs or their components?  I wasn't able to find any sources.

Can a person be absolutely assured that no animal has ever died for their benefit?  No.  Does that mean we flick it in and just give up?  No.

I became vegetarian for emotional, health and political reasons.  I don't preach about it, but I will speak openly when asked about it.  I myself am not morally opposed to all consumption of meat or animal products.  My greater concern is factory farming.  There was a day and age not long ago when most people lived within 50 miles of their primary food sources, so had a sense of how commercial farming was conducted.  The more we distance ourselves from it, the more disturbing the practices.  When did it become acceptable to use chicken manure to feed cattle?  When did it become acceptable to feed cows to other cows?  (They are naturally vegetarians, of course.)

< Message edited by Racquelle -- 7/7/2008 10:08:04 PM >

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 10:09:36 PM   
Nikolette


Posts: 488
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline 		I'm not currently a vegetarian, I'm what I refer to as a "Sustainable Eater". To explain simply, its like being a part time vegetarian/vegan who focuses on cruelty-free, organic, locally produced, and occasionally meat alernative foods.

But I was a vegetarian at different points in time for a couple years here and there.

My general philosophy was that anything I was giving second life to was wholly fine if I could stomach it. So anything second hand or something I salvaged otherwise was acceptable to me. But I couldn't really stand the smell of most leather items, for example, so I avoided them. Additionally I didn't avoid ALL new items. I was basically trying to minimalize my impact on the environment, animal cruelty and etc. I would specifically seek alternative earth and animal friendly goods when buying gifts and such for others, or items for myself.

To research each and every item proved to be a heavy task indeed. But a couple of books on the topic of animal alternatives and earth friendly goods really helped shorten the list of work and I used that as a recommendation guide for myself.

There ARE some things that I always, regularly avoid, products as well as food. Those would be certain wool products, veal (although any consumption of mainstream dairy products is, in fact, helping the veal industry), foie gras, and so on and so forth. Also I nearly always buy locally farmed honey. I also have some ever changing lists of particularly horrible companies to avoid products from and different seafood and its sustainability and things like that.

For me, its mostly about trying to minimize my impact, rather than closing down a lot of options for myself. I work hard to find alternatives and invest my money and product loyalty in companies that work hard to share similar philosophies on this topic.

Also, you mentioned charities and that is part of why I feel so good about sometimes paying quite a bit extra, I consider the difference to be like giving charity toward a matter I feel positively about.




And as a side note, some people's immaturity and disrespect to evenconsider vegetarian lifestyles in a reasonable and educated manner never ceases to amaze me. Anti-dinosaur-death vegetarians?  Come on. Dying from a vegan lifestyle? Ridiculous. People have been vegans and vegetarians since we were also eating meat. I know 2 elderly people who are at ripe ages and were born and raised to be vegetarians. Just becaue its something that comes in and out of popularity at given times in our history as humans doesn't mean its a "new" idea. Practically nothing ever is.

And some links of interest:
http://www.sustainabletable.org/
http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/nutshell.htm
http://www.nofoiegras.org/
http://www.ethicalcorp.com/content.asp?ContentID=3315
http://www.veganessentials.com/



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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 10:15:04 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolette
For me, its mostly about trying to minimize my impact, rather than closing down a lot of options for myself. I work hard to find alternatives and invest my money and product loyalty in companies that work hard to share similar philosophies on this topic.

Also, you mentioned charities and that is part of why I feel so good about sometimes paying quite a bit extra, I consider the difference to be like giving charity toward a matter I feel positively about.


Thanks so much for your post, Nikolette.  How people choose (or don't choose) to minimize their impact is what I'm interested in.  That's an interesting perspective about charity, too; thanks for sharing it, and for your links, as well!

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 10:48:40 PM   
Nikolette


Posts: 488
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline 		ownedgirlie: You're very welcome. I really love the sustainabletable.org website. It is a reasonable, thoughtful philosophy and contains well organized information.

Its easy to get overwhelmed by the magnitude of waste and consumption that's so common, so every so often I try to do a bit of research into how people have succeeded in impacting the world around them through protest and speaking to others on behalf of matters that are important to them... Whether its liberating a country (our own!!) or "just" trying to achieve fairer wagers I love love LOVE to revel in our ability to better the world we live in.

So on that note .... assorted inspiration:
http://www.wc.pdx.edu/
http://www.upiasiaonline.com/Society_Culture/2007/08/23/commentary_gandhis_role_in_liberating_india/7580/
http://www.legacy98.org/
http://www.365act.com/
http://www.time.com/time/time100/leaders/profile/sanger.html





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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 11:05:33 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
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Status: offline 		I've been enjoying the Sustainable website.  I'm going to pass it along to people I know who will also find it interesting.  You posted a lot of links and I will check them all out.  Thanks for doing the research and sharing!  I'm fascinated by what I'm reading. 

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 11:25:08 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

God I hope chocolate doesn't need vivisection.


LMAO!  No shit.  I draw the line on dark chocolate.


Good Lord.

To my surprise, and thanks to the links Nikolette posted, I learned a thing or two about chocolate production.  I followed some links and found this:

For now, chocolate is a bitter sweet…
  • 284,000 children toil in abusive labor conditions in West Africa’s cocoa fields
  • Cocoa companies pay prices so low that many cocoa farmers cannot meet their families’ basic needs

But we can fix all that...with Fair Trade certified chocolate:
  • Forced and abusive child labor are prohibited
  • Farming families earn a price that is adequate to meet their basic human needs
  • Environmentally sustainable production methods are required

From the Global Exchange site.

And I found this:

Here's a short (incomplete) list of companies known to sell slavery-free chocolate and cocoa products:
Clif Bar
Cloud Nine
Dagoba Organic Chocolate
Denman Island Chocolate
Gardners Candies
Green and Black's
Kailua Candy Company
Koppers Chocolate
L.A. Burdick Chocolates
La Siembre
Montezuma's Chocolates
Newman's Own Organics
Omanhene Cocoa Bean Company
Rapunzel Pure Organics
The Endangered Species Chocolate Company
Note: No organic beans are produced in Ivory Coast, but an organic label is no guarantee that the product is slave-free. Newman's Own, however, is both. Newman's Own contracts with Costa Rica producers who are closely monitored to comply with labor laws and organic standards.
(Source: Food Revolution, by John Robbins)

From Alternet.

There is also a site called Radical Thought that I can't seem to get to from my computer tonight, but they supposedly have a list of slave chocolate and non-slave chocolate.

Who woulda thought? 


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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 11:28:05 PM   
Rumtiger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

God I hope chocolate doesn't need vivisection.


you'd still eat chocolate even if it came from the torn out hearts of baby seals.

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