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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/7/2008 11:46:57 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

God I hope chocolate doesn't need vivisection.


you'd still eat chocolate even if it came from the torn out hearts of baby seals.



OK that was awful but hilarious!!


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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 12:34:14 AM   
Nikolette


Posts: 488
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline 		ownedgirlie:

Its the same thing with coffee. There are a LOT of foods that we get and don't understand where it comes from or what the cost it.

Recently I learned that its the same case for much of our fruit. And I visited a site recently that talked about boycotting chinese products and how its impossible and invasive in strange ways... Like apple juice. Apparently a lot of our apple juice comes from Chinese sources. 

I'll add a couple additional links about that apple juice thing if I can find them and one about consumerism in general that changed my life!

http://www.storyofstuff.com/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21825517/




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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 1:51:54 AM   
PainSmith


Posts: 53
Joined: 12/30/2007
From: the Republic
Status: offline 		There are lots of reasons to become veggie; I've been so for 30 years for a philosophical combination of Pascal's wager and politeness. But I won't argue that, I'm merely point out that veggies life longer and are more intelligent than the average person. Seriously!

'in 2003 the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition stated: "adherence to a vegetarian diet can produce a significant 3.6 year increase in life expectancy." ' (http://www.howtolivelong.com/docs/meat.htm)

'High IQ link to being vegetarian ' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm)

But if you do convert, watch your diet. Going vegan, or all the way to fruitarian, means that unless you take special care you risk missing out essential nutrients that can damage your health. "Man's blindness 'due to vegan diet'" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/687996.stm)

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 2:00:55 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolette

ownedgirlie:

Its the same thing with coffee. There are a LOT of foods that we get and don't understand where it comes from or what the cost it.


I checked out my favorite - Peets:

Do you sell organic coffee?
Peet's Gaia Organic Blend is a certified organic coffee. Other Peet's coffees - Sumatra, Sulawesi, Ethiopian Fancy and Arabian Mocha Sanani - are grown organically, but are not certified.
Do you sell any Fair Trade coffee?
Peet's Fair Trade Blend is a certified fair trade coffee. Not all of our growers are eligible for Fair Trade certification; in all cases, Peet's strives to maintain long-term, sustainable partnerships with our growers. Premium coffees such as the ones we use command prices well above the Fair Trade minimums, and we actively work with partners such as Coffee Kids and Global Education Partnership to improve the quality of life in coffee-growing communities.

I realize I got off the topic of animal products a bit, but the idea is what people may or may not be doing to shop and eat consciensciously.  Most of my family just buys what they want - it's their choice and they think my sister & I are nuts for trying to be so aware, but I'm still interested in the philosophies of others on the topic.

Thanks for the replies, so far!

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 7/8/2008 2:02:36 AM >

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 4:15:32 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I am not a vegetarien, but I am an ethical shopper.  My experience of many main stream vegetarians is that they may believe what they are doing is great, but have no understanding of where their food comes from or how it is produced any more than many main stream carnivores.
 
I am always interested in the whole veal concept though.  So many meat eaters get uncomfortable when placed with eating veal, but I also do not believe that most understand there are different types of veal.  It's no different to not understanding that buying vegetarian does not make a person any more ethical or caring.
 
the.dark.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 4:31:02 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		'Ethical shopper'.

I like that. I too try to be an ethical shopper. Since I live alone I don't buy a lot of groceries, stuff that I do buy I make an effort to make sure that it is fair trade stuff for things like my coffee and other items. I buy a lot of Newmans Own products and Kashi. (I'm trying to think of other brands but I didn't get enough sleep last night and am drawing blanks).
Caribou Coffee carries a lot of fair trade beans and they make fantastic coffees.

Thanks for the phrase 'Ethical Shopper' the.dark.


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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 5:24:32 AM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		The only problem I have with some people who choose to give up meat is they somehow believe that all the farmland used to grow the food they choose to eat does no harm.

In the USA, more animals have lost habitat because of farming, any kind of farming.  Farmers have killed off many cougars, bear, wolf, and other animals that threaten people and animals they raise.  Now farmers are killing off deer, elk and other aniamls because their populations have grown out of control with no predators.  Around Yellowstone, buffalo are killed when they range off the park because they begin to graze in the fields farmers planted. 

It's a tough call, so I eat everything, there-by helping to maintain a natural balance.

I do not buy my meats from supermarkets though, God knows what they do to that meat to keep it looking fresh for so long.  I can travel to local farms and purchase a cow,a pig, free range chickens and fresh eggs.   But it sure draws interesting looks from people walking by when I've got a cow hanging from the garage ceiling ready for butchering 

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 5:56:50 AM   
patwi


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Status: offline 		Green and Blacks chocolate...*pauses and drols a little* Thank god my guilty pleasure isn't made by slave labor! 

And, ethical shopper...that describes me nicely. I think I'll use that term! ON a side note - I haven't eaten any beef for a month and last night had 2 cheeseburgers with my mom....and still today I feel like there's a lead brick in my belly. Ugh. I think my body's trying to tell me something.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 6:09:22 AM   
sub4hire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I saw a post on another thread where someone had stated being a vegitarian and not buying leather floggers.  That got me thinking, and this isn't to challenge those who do not advocate purchasing animal products; rather to understand how far people go in avoiding such purchases - Do you try to avoid all animal product purchases?  Is this limited to only those items you know to be animal products, or do you research your items before buying them?  Do you try to avoid products that have been tested on animals, as well, even if the product itself doesn't contain animal by-products? 




I'm not a vegetarian but I don't eat meat.  Fish, foul, poultry or anyting else you want to throw into the mix.  I have nothing against it, but I don't like the taste or texture.  I will eat a very thin burger from time to time.

So, what does that make me?  Just a person.  In any event...I do know vegans who believe in animal rights.  Who won't eat this or that...who will research so they don't cross the line.
For me..being a vegan means being an activist. 
A vegetarian well that is someone who is trying to eat healthier.  As Termy pointed out though there are certain proteins we derive from animals.  We need these in our diet.  I'm a walking example of that.  I eat plenty of protein but not the type my body needs.
So a doctor can do a full work up on me at any time.  Absolutely everything will be perfect with the one exception of how much protein I have in my body.  It is always low.
No matter how cautious you are even if you are a vegan animal products are going to come into contact with you.
So, I guess it is how educated you are and how willing you are to research forever. 
The only way around it is to have your own self contained farm.  No animals...fenced off so none can get in.  No pesticides...grow everything yourself.  How do you make sure your water is ok?  That no pesticides  or animal by products have leaked into it anywhere along the way?  Pee, poop.  Cat feces is almost all protein..undigested.  Which means meat is polluting your veggies. 
Some things are out of our control. 

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 7:00:20 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PainSmith

'in 2003 the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition stated: "adherence to a vegetarian diet can produce a significant 3.6 year increase in life expectancy." ' (http://www.howtolivelong.com/docs/meat.htm)



While I won't disagree with the Findings of the study you posted a link to, I will point out one thing.
 
I'm a strong proponent of Quality over Quantity.  I LIKE my meat.  A Lot.  I consider things like a good surf-n-turf to be part of my Quality of life.  Yes, it might add 2 or 3 years to my life's Quantity to become a strict vegetarian, but at the same time it would strip me of a proportionally larger amount of Quality.
 
The quote is normally attributed to Mark Twain - Yes, I can give up cigars, whiskey, and sex and gain 20 years... but if I were to give up cigars, whiskey, and sex I wouldn't Want the extra 20!

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 7:14:25 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

The only problem I have with some people who choose to give up meat is they somehow believe that all the farmland used to grow the food they choose to eat does no harm.

You seem to misunderstand that eating animal products basically doubles the amount of farm land needed to sustain you. You not only need the actual crops that you eat but some amount of land for the animals as well as more land to grow the crops they eat.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 7:21:51 AM   
Venatrix


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Status: offline 		FR - Just want to say regarding the quality versus quantity argument, when the doctors are cutting you open to scrape out the all the damage done by a meat-laden diet and are inserting stent after stent, don't complain about having to go through the procedures, because, after all, you chose "quality" over quantity.  I just turned 49, just had a check-up and was told that my health stats were those of someone half my age.  I've been vegetarian and now mostly vegan for over 25 years.  My doctor is convinced there's a connection, so that's good enough for me.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 7:26:41 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Just look at the natural world. Every creature eats other creatures in order to live. It's basically just a transformation of energy. Unless you opt for cremation, you too will be eaten in turn.

The real question, imo, is , as others have noted, the ethical one of how we treat creatures that we consume. This applies as much to creatures that are hunted and fished,  as to those raised for consumption. Do we mindfully give thanks to critters we consume that sustain our lives ?  I hope so.

Then , of course, there is the question: do you hear the scream of the carrot as it is pulled from the earth ?


< Message edited by cjan -- 7/8/2008 7:29:43 AM >

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 7:27:43 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

FR - Just want to say regarding the quality versus quantity argument, when the doctors are cutting you open to scrape out the all the damage done by a meat-laden diet and are inserting stent after stent, don't complain about having to go through the procedures, because, after all, you chose "quality" over quantity.  I just turned 49, just had a check-up and was told that my health stats were those of someone half my age.  I've been vegetarian and now mostly vegan for over 25 years.  My doctor is convinced there's a connection, so that's good enough for me.

And this post is indicative of why I avoid vegans and most hard core vegetarians like the plague.

BTW I'm 41 and have been a meat eater my whole life. My heart is great, my cholesterol is in the middle of the normal range and my only health issue is mechanical damage to my knee.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 7:39:54 AM   
MusicalBoredom


Posts: 620
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Louisiana/New York
Status: offline 		My ex, who I was with for 12 years, was a veg.  She researched everything. When I say she researched, I mean she labored over the research.  She didn't carry protest signs or dump paint on people, she just wanted to do her part according to what she believed.  She never preached about what other people should do but her moral code included not sacrificing animals where it could be helped.  Along those lines, she only wore materials that were plant based and only bought food products that were animal product and animal testing free.  She also researched household and hygiene products to ensure they were also testing and cruelty free.  

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 7:42:24 AM   
Aynne


Posts: 740
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Status: offline 		Hi Ken,

I am inclined to agree, I am not so far from 40 ( ugh ) and have eaten meat my entire life, and make no aoplogies for it. I do try and shop locally and I am a member of our local co-op tho, to me the that is important, where and how the meat is procured ratheer than just not eating meat.  But as you were saying, my bp is excellent, my cholesterol is super low and I wear the same size I wore in college. Meat is not the enemy, I know so many vegetarians, especially younger ones that are just downright fat due to eating things like chips, candy, pop, junk food, etc. and think they are healthy because they don't eat meat. *Not directed at Venatrix*

I think that it is entirely possible to have a very healthy meat eating diet and a horribly unbalanced vegan one that is basically my point.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 7:50:22 AM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

I just turned 49, just had a check-up and was told that my health stats were those of someone half my age.  I've been vegetarian and now mostly vegan for over 25 years.  My doctor is convinced there's a connection, so that's good enough for me.


I just turned 48, during my physical my Dr asked what my diet was.  I told him, eggs fried in bacon, plenty of meat, fish, you name it I eat it.  The one thing I do not eat is fast food or prepared food. I bake my own breads, cook every meal.  I don't think I have been to a fast food rest in over 20 years

Nothing wrong with me and my chol is well below average.  He said I was in great shape and keep doing whatever I was doing because it works.

Basically it comes down to family genes, some people will have heart disease no matter what they eat, some people won't.  My family eats everything, and everyone in my family has lived into their 90's

Anyone remember Jim Fix, the health food guy for Grape Nuts, ran everyday, eat a balanced diet, died at 39-40 from heart disease, when it's your time it's your time.

Hmmmm....I'm hungry now


< Message edited by housesub4you -- 7/8/2008 7:53:59 AM >

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 7:50:33 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

FR - Just want to say regarding the quality versus quantity argument, when the doctors are cutting you open to scrape out the all the damage done by a meat-laden diet and are inserting stent after stent, don't complain about having to go through the procedures, because, after all, you chose "quality" over quantity.  I just turned 49, just had a check-up and was told that my health stats were those of someone half my age.  I've been vegetarian and now mostly vegan for over 25 years.  My doctor is convinced there's a connection, so that's good enough for me.


I am going to turn 49 in a couple months. At my last Dr visit, she told me my health was fantastic also. I have never considered being a vegitarian. Now my doctor didn't mention the connection, but she has never suggested going veggie either. Good enough for me.

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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 7:52:12 AM   
puppen


Posts: 1550
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Status: offline 		~Fast reply~

Those are very interesting questions you pose, and it got me to thinking about a group of kids we know in our town.

They call themselves Freegans? Well, to put it short, as long as they don't buy it, and don't ask for it, it's okay.

The gross part is that these kids will dumpster dive for food, because, if it is free, it's fine.

I think I'd draw the line sooner than they would.

Currently, I'm attempting to go a very lax Pescitarian (Sp?), in which I won't consume red meat and chicken, but stick to veggies and fish.

However, I'm not tossing anything in my fridge. Wasteful.
I will eat all the meats slowly, and work my way to being a fishie-eater.


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RE: A question for Vegans & Vegitarians re: animal prod... - 7/8/2008 7:59:22 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Yes, like the young man that works for the other company here in my building. Die hard vegetarian, eating chips and cookies for breakfast with a soda chaser. Not to mention he looks like death warmed over on a cold plate.

However! I totally support his right to eat as he sees fit. But the first time he gives me hell for my left over steak I am warming I am soooooo going to kick his ass.

Being the sadistic bitch that I am. One day as he was waxing poetic about the joys of the soybean and tofu and why I should eat it (I hate tofu btw)  I asked him if he knew anything about the growing of soybeans. I asked if he knew that most farmers that grow soybeans also raise hogs. Hundreds and hundreds of hogs. All in great big huge hog confinement buildings with pits of steam pig shit below. Pig shit that is pumped out, through miles of hose and bladed in, or sprayed allllllllllllll over the surrounding corn and bean fields. Without the pigs, no fertilizer to grow the soybeans. No soybeans, no tofu. So even if he wants to argue about ethics, he is still in some way, promoting that farmers raising of piggies.

I spread horse poo all over my gardens and orchard. If I had room to raise a few hogs to butcher, I would be spreading the pig poo too. So the people that get my applesauce and other misc goodies are in essence going to benefit from my keeping animals. It is just the nature of the beast. Now, lets talk egg shells, where do you think they go?


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