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A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 6:42:32 AM

TheHeretic

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LA Times story here

This is just disgusting, and a good example of why I don't want ass-covering bureaucrats running my medical care.

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 7:15:35 AM

pahunkboy

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Im not worried it wont go anywhere.

Tho the system is fraught with waste..... lets redo malpractice ins, alot of things could be done by executve decree.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 7:34:53 AM

NeedingMore220

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God, that's awful. I have nothing against universal healthcare. I just haven't heard a decent plan about how to implement it without turning it into a huge governmental, bureacratical friggin' nightmare.

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 8:17:44 AM

Zensee

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And this story has exactly WTF to do with a single payer health insurance system, Rich? Like NOTHING?

I am sure the "give us all your fukin' money or you can die right here on the street, like a dog" system has plenty of examples of neglect to wave as proof against it. The test would be how often each system fails, not that each one does, on occasion. But that would be fair analysis and argument, not just scare mongering.

So once again, naysayers, look north to Canada, look to Europe - single payer systems can and do work - way better than the for-(obscene)-profit system you presently have.

The proof is in the pudding.

Z.

< Message edited by Zensee -- 7/9/2008 8:18:53 AM >

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 8:28:22 AM

sub4hire

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OK, so that's a bad hospital that was shut down. What exactly does that have to do with government run health care?

Or were you expecting nobody to click on the link?

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 8:33:00 AM

Termyn8or

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Perhaps a better title for this thread would have been "...Oppose Government Run Anything". Do they do anything right ?

sub4, the point is these people are not properly managed, because that includes disclinipary action when wrongs are found. That includes firings, ever try to fire a civil service employee ?

My idea of privitization would take insurance out of the picture as well. That would cut the legs off of the drug companies and they could no longer charge us more for the same drug sold overseas for less, AND claim that they need to cover their research costs and all that and get all kinds of tax breaks at the same time. Then maybe a CAT scan would be $400 instead of $4,000. Costs would fall into line with what the market can bear.

Just my opinion.

T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 7/9/2008 8:40:11 AM >

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 8:53:44 AM

Owner59

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No,...these thing never happen in the private sector......

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 10:39:46 AM

Archer

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sub4hire: You may have clicked on the link but you seam to have failed to read that this was a government funded, government run, hospital that was closed down only after years of poor performance. That the Government then proceeded to lose paperwork that should have been available to be used when determining promotions and fireings, resulting in at least a couple cases of bad employees, not being fired but moving elsewhere (within the County Health Department ie other county hospitals) and then being promoted even though their work record should have shown they were not worthy of promotion.

ie an example of how THIS US Government already runs what healthcare they do control in a manner that has serious problems.

< Message edited by Archer -- 7/9/2008 10:49:14 AM >

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 10:48:18 AM

cyberdude611

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Name one, just one, successful and efficient government run welfare or social program over the past 20 years and then we can start to debate about government-run healthcare.

Everything the government has run has been a disaster. Medicare is a disaster. Social Security is a disaster. Public education is a disaster. Why am I supposed to think socialized medicine will be any different?

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 7/9/2008 10:49:08 AM >

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 12:12:03 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Everything the government has run has been a disaster. Medicare is a disaster. Social Security is a disaster. Public education is a disaster. Why am I supposed to think socialized medicine will be any different?

...ok, but as another poster has pointed out, in order to make a reasonable analysis we have to compare government run stuff with privately run stuff. Is corporately run medical care in the US an unmitigated success? Does it treat everyone who needs it (and i don't mean just stabilising someone, does it provide physio for example), is it value for money? Is it doing its part to prevent days lost to industry due to sickness and ill-health?

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 12:23:13 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

LA Times story here

This is just disgusting, and a good example of why I don't want ass-covering bureaucrats running my medical care.

This has nothing to do with a univerasl healthcare system because the uS hasn't got one, it has an expenseive private healthcare system with a poor social healthcare system added on to mop up the healthcare of the poor and disposessed.

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 12:26:49 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Name one, just one, successful and efficient government run welfare or social program over the past 20 years and then we can start to debate about government-run healthcare.

Everything the government has run has been a disaster. Medicare is a disaster. Social Security is a disaster. Public education is a disaster. Why am I supposed to think socialized medicine will be any different?

It is not in the ideological interests of the US government to prove that public organisations work, even though there are about 30 developed countries that have proved they can run healthcare far better and more efficiently than private companies can.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/9/2008 12:27:32 PM >

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 12:31:23 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee
The proof is in the pudding.

The Myths of Single-Payer Health Care

Single payer systems == rationed healthcare, long waiting lists for necessary treatments.

Thanks, but no thanks. The government has as much business running healthcare as it does running any other industry--absolutely none at all.

< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 7/9/2008 12:40:36 PM >

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 2:40:18 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee
The proof is in the pudding.

The Myths of Single-Payer Health Care

Single payer systems == rationed healthcare, long waiting lists for necessary treatments.

Thanks, but no thanks. The government has as much business running healthcare as it does running any other industry--absolutely none at all.

The American government backing for private healthcare has meant that many Americans receive inferior healthcare if they receive healthcare at all and on just about every credible international report, American healhcare is inferior to countries with government run universal healthcare systems and the American system is much much more expensive.

American healthcare is rationed far more than healthcare in any country with uncersal healthcare. That is a fact but you keep looking the wrong way through the telescope and keep paying twice as much as you ought to. When you are in serious need, I know I will have top class treatment, you don't know if you will or whether you are denied by the small print in your insurance policy.

The propaganda you quote is cute but still propaganda but hell, America is the only developed country that still believes in free market medicine even though it is expensive and is out performed by all comparable countries, it will take more than the truth to convince Americans otherwise. America is always right, even when it is so plainly wrong.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/9/2008 2:43:58 PM >

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 5:28:01 PM

Archer

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Another sidestep of the basic idea that the OP was based on

Prior Performance of THIS US Government, not some other government in some other nation, is the best indicator of Future performance of THIS government in relation to providing healthcare.
This Hospital that was closed was a COUNTY GOVERNMENT run hospital that couldn't meet even the minimum standards to retain it's medicade and medicare patients.
It remained open so long because it was Government run had the same standard of care been happening at a private hospital it would have been sued out of business.
Then even when it is closed, the COUNTY Government couldn't keep up with it's personel records of the folks responsible for the problems that caused it to be shut down.
So again Government inefficiencies protected dangerously poor performance workers from being fired instead they transfered the bad actors to other County Government operated hospitals, and in some cases they were even promoted.

A GOVERNMENT run hospital displaying this level of incompetence and this level of low standards is the best indicator of how any future government run systems for healthcare will be run.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 6:50:38 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Another sidestep of the basic idea that the OP was based on

Prior Performance of THIS US Government, not some other government in some other nation, is the best indicator of Future performance of THIS government in relation to providing healthcare.
This Hospital that was closed was a COUNTY GOVERNMENT run hospital that couldn't meet even the minimum standards to retain it's medicade and medicare patients.
It remained open so long because it was Government run had the same standard of care been happening at a private hospital it would have been sued out of business.
Then even when it is closed, the COUNTY Government couldn't keep up with it's personel records of the folks responsible for the problems that caused it to be shut down.
So again Government inefficiencies protected dangerously poor performance workers from being fired instead they transfered the bad actors to other County Government operated hospitals, and in some cases they were even promoted.

A GOVERNMENT run hospital displaying this level of incompetence and this level of low standards is the best indicator of how any future government run systems for healthcare will be run.

Thanks, Archer. Looks like my work here is done.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Archer)

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 7:06:51 PM

Vendaval

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I am not surprised that the problem employees were moved around and not disciplined.

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 7:53:01 PM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee
The proof is in the pudding.

The Myths of Single-Payer Health Care

Single payer systems == rationed healthcare, long waiting lists for necessary treatments.

Thanks, but no thanks. The government has as much business running healthcare as it does running any other industry--absolutely none at all.

Man, is that site bullshit propaganda. How about some actual DOCTORS who support single-payer?
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php#socialized

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(in reply to celticlord2112)

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 8:05:55 PM

Termyn8or

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OK let's get this straight.

Somebody wants the government to pay for our doctor visits and operations and such. Is that what they were saying ? (not the OP obviously).

First of all, is our system any better ? You pay say $400 a month for health insurance, and it is not the best, but it beats nothing. Now let's say that you make $25,000 a year. After taxes you are lucky to take home $16,000. There are twelve months in the year. So that $16,000 a year is a whopping $1,333 or so a month. If you live like dogs, after rent you got $933 per month. You have to have a phone, electricity and gas. What do you figure that leaves ? Periodically you do have to buy clothes, soap and a few other things. So when you get through with all of that and the $400 per month healthcare, what does that leave you ?

Now all the things I mentioned are real, these are real expenses. And when you figure it all out, what does that leave you for gas, food, car repairs and other incidents ?

The fact is unless you are in a very advantageous financial position right now, like with everthing paid off, is you don't make fifty grand a year you are in poverty. That is a fact. Fifty grand is just above poverty as I describe it, and some make that and are still in fucking poverty because they were stupid enough to take on a thousand dollar a month house payment or some such, or bought a Hummer or something.

That is not my problem.

T

edited to add, and that means that MY tax dollars, the few they get from me, should be used to suport this mess.

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 7/9/2008 8:07:18 PM >

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 8:14:40 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Prior Performance of THIS US Government, not some other government in some other nation, is the best indicator of Future performance of THIS government in relation to providing healthcare.

...ok, so to best assess whether to nationalise or privatise a system all we need to do is find the worst possible example of nationalisation, ignore all evidence of bad privatisation and proclaim that is all we need to know. Surely, logically, a better and more accurate way would be to find the median performing examples of both nationalised and privatised health care, then compare them.
Otherwise all you're doing is engaging in ideological sophistry.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 20

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