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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 9:24:57 PM

Zensee

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Rich, Archer - One poorly run hospital under county control does not count as a case against a national single payer system or refute the overwhelmingly positive experience people in enlightened countries have had with a centrally directed and funded healthcare system.

As for David Hogberg's ' I get paid by the word to make things up', analysis of the matter, it is so bloated with faulty logic and outright misrepresentations it barely deserves parsing. For example - Myth #6 - he makes a complete straw dog argument on behalf of single payer advocates and only approaches intellectual honesty in the final paragraph -

quote:

In areas where a health care system does have an impact, such as treating disease, the U.S. outperforms single-payer systems. For example, the U.S. has a higher five-year survival rate for victims of heart attacks than Canada, due to the fact that we do more bypass surgeries and angioplasties in the U.S. Hospitals in the U.S. also commit fewer errors than hospitals in countries with single-payer systems like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom.

And (like the OP) this has precisely WTF to do with single payer versus private for (mega) profit? Absolutely nothing - again.

The rest of Hogberg's arguments hover around this appalling level of honesty and applicability.

For instance again - in the article he links to above (LINK HERE) the study only concludes that long term survival rates are affected by the treatment protocols of the different countries. It (of course) says NOTHING (once again) about the role of public versus private healthcare in the calculation. The study has no relevance to the argument.

Z.

< Message edited by Zensee -- 7/9/2008 9:35:53 PM >

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 9:29:28 PM

DarkVictory

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Perhaps a better title for this thread would have been "...Oppose Government Run Anything". Do they do anything right ?

Private police? Private fire companies? Private water and power? Give me a fucking break. When your neighbor's house is burning down, you sure as fuck dont want to be wondering if you paid this months extortion to your private fire company. When there's a firearm carrying burglar in your house, you sure as holy fuck don't want to wonder if you can afford the cost of a call for the private police.

There are plenty of services that the government runs and runs well. Don't swallow the grotesque social darwinism called liberterianism without thinking some first.

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Post #: 22

RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 9:46:37 PM

Zensee

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Ha ha - so true, DV.

London,England used to have private fire departments. You had a cast iron plaque on your house and if the squad turned up for your fire and there was no plaque or there was a competitor's plaque - burn baby burn! (I'm sorry but you are not covered for second storey rescue - would you like to upgrade at this time?)

There were frequent arsons by the interested, competing parties and it was common for rival services to interfere with each other's (often amateur) efforts, with many a deadly result.

Yeah, bring on the private cops, termy. Smashing idea.

Z.

< Message edited by Zensee -- 7/9/2008 10:29:30 PM >

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 10:23:36 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

it was common for rival services to interfere with each other's (often amateur) efforts, with many a deadly result.

...ah, the joys of competition. Let the market decide and all that............

......seems to me that too many people here and elsewhere simplistically think that you can either have capitalism everywhere in a society or it is a socialist society......and those same people seem to think socialism is a synonym for evil. i have two words for such people: mixed economy. Those two words combine social freedom with social justice.....yes, you can have your cake and eat it too.

(in reply to Zensee)

Post #: 24

RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 10:41:03 PM

Archer

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Problem is any argument against is automaticly strawmaned into the idea that one must be completely against government doing anything. Of course the overstatement on this side of the argument does invite that to an extent.

My contention is that workers that are civil servents tend to be less accountable than their private service counterparts. This has almost always proven true.
Are there examples of it not being universally true yes. But overall the accountability of private sector employees is greater than the accountability of public sector employees.

phiolosophy all well and good in theory to copy the best of everyones systems into a hybrid however real life doesn't work that way because you have to copy the customers too, and people are simply too different culturally between Europe and the US to make that work. I know alot of people would love for us to simply fall into line and follow the europeans, but the values simply are not similar enough. That is where the disconnect happens. When I argue against a government providing something that is perfectly possible to be provided privately it gets pooo poooed as barbaric and unenlightened. Well a great big rasberry to those making those value judgements. Cultural eliteism is something they generally argue against when speaking about primative tribes in places like New Guinnea, yet jump right into when comparing themselves to US culture, aboslutely hypocritical.

The other problem is the switching of arguments between the 4 or 5 different styles of government rationed healthcare.
Special note I understand perfectly well that ALL healthcare is rationed so don't go off down that road it's a sidetrack.
The difference is that I don't want a civil servent making the call between who does and does not get the proceedure.
If the system can produce X number of bypasses and the society actually has a need for X + 100 then reguardless of which system you use there will be at least 100 people who don't get the proceedure. My contention is I would rather have Private groups determining who gets them (Including charity hopsitals and clinics) than have someone from the government doing it.

(in reply to Zensee)

Post #: 25

RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 10:51:42 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...ah, the joys of competition. Let the market decide and all that............

         No. Not "let the market decide." Let the consumer decide. What we have in the original article is an example, a paradigm even, of what you get when a single entity has control. The stagnation. The laziness. The shift from patients being customers, to patients just being the product.

          This was the hospital where a woman died screaming on the floor of the ER waiting room. A fucking janitor mopped around her.

       Maybe the moral of the story is just that you should never go anyplace named after MLK.

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 10:53:07 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

people are simply too different culturally between Europe and the US to make that work. I know alot of people would love for us to simply fall into line and follow the europeans, but the values simply are not similar enough. That is where the disconnect happens.

...interesting point. Not sure i agree with it, but it's a far more honest argument than Cyberdude looking for Reds under the Bed all the bloody time.
However, i think you and i depart on one matter of opinion. A nationalised health care system treats all the citizens. A privatised healthcare system only treats those who can afford it, and inevitably (as inevitably as civil servants are less accountable) leads to that same privatised system fleecing central government if they try to put into place safeguards for the poor. Such a hybrid system is biased the wrong way. i make no apologies for liking the UK system......health care is not taxed seperately but is paid for out of general taxation.......the national health service treats everyone, but you can get a tax break if you go private. Best of both worlds.......but start from the assumption that health care is important for everyone, not just those with cash.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 27

RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 10:57:56 PM

Zensee

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That is a redustio ad absurdum argument, Rich. A "single entity" does not have complete control - neither in the private nor the public systems. That's a complete fantasy.

Your argument applies equally to public and for profit healthcare. It's a non-argument.

Z.

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 11:03:31 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

That is a redustio ad absurdum argument, Rich. A "single entity" does not have complete control -

Z.

Educate yourself, Zensee.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-kingdrewpulitzer-sg,0,1507651.storygallery

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Post #: 29

RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 11:04:23 PM

DomAviator

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Thereare actually a great many private fire and ambulance companies serving the United States One company alone , Rural-Metro serves the following cities

http://www.ruralmetro.com/about_communitiesserved.asp

However, the majority of Fire / EMS protection in the USA is volunteer. My volunteer dept is a private membership club organized as a non-profit corporation. It works well.

As for police - there are many private police forces and private prisons. There are also a large number of volunteer personell in the form of reserve deputies and officers.

(in reply to Zensee)

Post #: 30

RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 11:23:40 PM

Zensee

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Thanks for the link, Rich. And it relates to the thesis that a single payer system is bad in what way? Looks like a list of things that can go wrong with any unregulated and improperly managed enterprise. Again there is no specific case against a single payer system, just vague insinuations that these cases of incompetence are the direct and sole result of a single payer system and that such abuse and negligence could not occur in a private, for profit system (which is obvious bullshit - i.e. your own HMO's).

So nothing new from you. Still refusing to look through the telescope because you just know that Jupiter has no moons.

My dad has been in hospital for a week and will remain there another week at least. We have many concerns about his health and his illness is a strain on the family. We will experience stress and expense making ready for his return home. We will NOT have to worry about some hospital enforcer banging down the door trying to repossess dad's treatment because we went bankrupt paying the bills.

USA, you could have that too.

Z.

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Post #: 31

RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/9/2008 11:31:40 PM

Zensee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Thereare actually a great many private fire and ambulance companies serving the United States One company alone , Rural-Metro serves the following cities

http://www.ruralmetro.com/about_communitiesserved.asp

However, the majority of Fire / EMS protection in the USA is volunteer. My volunteer dept is a private membership club organized as a non-profit corporation. It works well.

As for police - there are many private police forces and private prisons. There are also a large number of volunteer personell in the form of reserve deputies and officers.

Yeah but they are regulated to the hilt, they aren't making up the SOP's in their spare time. It's great that locals step up to the challenge but they are held to professional standards and, as you pointed out, are non-profit.

There's nothing wrong with people profiting from participation (i.e. being compensated for their time) or companies selling goods or services to non-profit organisations. There is a problem when profit becomes the bottom line as opposed to providing the service in a self sustaining manner.

Z.

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Post #: 32

RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:08:26 AM

TheHeretic

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        Where are you getting that 'government run' is equivalent to 'single-payer?' This specific hospital was directly run by local government, but payment for services was collected wherever it could be found.

        Please understand, Zensee, my health care is just as good as yours, and I've selected the policy thaty costs me nothing a month. When I decide I can afford to upgrade to shelling out an extra $200 a month for the family, it will be better and faster than I could get anywhere else in the world. Such care is not universal. We can certainly do better on that.

        I just don't want it run by people who put other political considerations ahead of my care. Especially when they are also supposed to be the watchdogs.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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Post #: 33

RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:13:09 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Prior Performance of THIS US Government, not some other government in some other nation, is the best indicator of Future performance of THIS government in relation to providing healthcare.

Britain has allowed some private companies into itrs system, notably American companies. One that has 75 million customers in America. None have improved healthcare but made it more expensive. This is of no surprise when one looks closely at these companies and how they operate in America and then, the current British government leans ideologically towards the market and its American counterpart, thinks that taxpayers making the rich richer, is a good thing,

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:19:50 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

people are simply too different culturally between Europe and the US to make that work. I know alot of people would love for us to simply fall into line and follow the europeans, but the values simply are not similar enough. That is where the disconnect happens.

I have yet to meet an American resident in Europe (and I've met and known a lot over the years through work) not wish that the US had similar healthcare systems to (western) Europe. The culture isn't that different but the ideological propaganda Americans face at home from private companies and rightwing governments (I've witnessed it first hand) defeats any ration argument about ways to improve American healthcare.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/10/2008 12:20:38 AM >

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:20:18 AM

variation30

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there are many reasons to avoid state healthcare.

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:21:41 AM

variation30

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

So once again, naysayers, look north to Canada, look to Europe - single payer systems can and do work - way better than the for-(obscene)-profit system you presently have.

out of curiosity...

what is an *obscene* profit?

I've never understood this term.

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RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:24:50 AM

variation30

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...ok, but as another poster has pointed out, in order to make a reasonable analysis we have to compare government run stuff with privately run stuff. Is corporately run medical care in the US an unmitigated success? Does it treat everyone who needs it (and i don't mean just stabilising someone, does it provide physio for example), is it value for money? Is it doing its part to prevent days lost to industry due to sickness and ill-health?

first off, hippy, noone *needs* health care. people want it. let's keep this conversation clear of pathos and your subjective emotions. there is no *right* to healthcare.

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Post #: 38

RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:29:18 AM

variation30

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The American government backing for private healthcare has meant that many Americans receive inferior healthcare if they receive healthcare at all and on just about every credible international report, American healhcare is inferior to countries with government run universal healthcare systems and the American system is much much more expensive.

American healthcare is rationed far more than healthcare in any country with uncersal healthcare. That is a fact but you keep looking the wrong way through the telescope and keep paying twice as much as you ought to. When you are in serious need, I know I will have top class treatment, you don't know if you will or whether you are denied by the small print in your insurance policy.

The propaganda you quote is cute but still propaganda but hell, America is the only developed country that still believes in free market medicine even though it is expensive and is out performed by all comparable countries, it will take more than the truth to convince Americans otherwise. America is always right, even when it is so plainly wrong.

you're going to have a hard time convincing me that stealing people's money (by force) is ever a good thing - regardless of how altruistic the reasons may be.

you'll have an even harder time telling me that an unregulated system (no government intervention whatsoever) would be outpreformed by a regulated market...

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Post #: 39

RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:33:15 AM

Zensee

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(with out meaning to be invasive) - What sort of insurance do you carry, Rich? How is your healthcare paid for when delivered? Does everybody have as reliable and affordable access as you?

The quality of care and treatment options available is largely a separate issue from the manner in which they are distributed. The USA may have the leading technologies available to it but how many citizens can afford those options?

I agree that healthcare is too important to be run by and single source of management and oversight. In Canada the moral and legal principles of healthcare are federal, the funding is provincial (state), the long range planning is regional and the administration is local. Any barriers to oversight in Canada, are more likely to come from the professional medical associations (especially the doctors) who are feircely protective of their members and their turf.

The thing is that in this general discussion the two (a single payer system and the dreaded central control) are conflated by naysayers and the baby and bathwater made indistinguishable. You may not have intended that but others (myself possibly included) have brought it into the mix.

Z.

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