Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:37:30 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

there are many reasons to avoid state healthcare.


Yeah, all international statistics show state healthcare produces better results, is cheaper and everyone has health cover.


OK its a blog but look at the statistics from the WHO.

it’s not just France that does better than the US. It turns out that every industrialized country in the world does at least as well, if not better, than the US when it comes to health care outcomes for its people.


http://streetlightblog.blogspot.com/2007/03/some-statistics-on-health-care.html

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to variation30)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:40:17 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Two simple facts that nobody has failed to even consider.

1) To fund a nationwide health care system, the government has to have the money.
2) The government has a negative balance in the budget, which means, there is no money to run a national health care system.

Where, in all the government run agencies are you going to find the money to run one hospital, let alone a nationwide health system?

The United States works on a 'rob peter to pay paul' accounting system.  In fact, if a business were run in the same manner, someone would end up in jail... oh wait, a bunch did, I think it was called ENRON.

Then you would have to find a kick ass take names person to run the agency, one that cant be bribed, controlled, handled, influenced, or otherwise rendered immoral, indecent, and unethical.  And if you did find such a person, Congress would not approve them.

There are a number of county and city run hospitals in the United States, most operate at a loss, simply because they are either teaching hospitals, handle the uninsured and homeless, and are on the bottem of the appropriations barrel, behind police and fire.



_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to variation30)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:40:35 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Zensee
(with out meaning to be invasive) - What sort of insurance do you carry, Rich? How is your healthcare paid for when delivered? Does everybody have as reliable and affordable access as you?


       That would be; none of your business, I don't care, and I already answered that.  Now before you read enough of the links to learn that this hospital primarily served minorities and start calling me filthy names, we are done.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 7/10/2008 12:42:59 AM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:45:34 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		v30, An obscene profit, in healthcare, would be anything over and above the return necessary to operate the system and to compensate staff and suppliers fairly for their contributions. (No $100,000 toilet seats etc.)

The HMO's make an obscene profit because many of them willfully and knowingly make every effort they can to deny the benefit of adequate treatment to their paying clients, pocketing the savings in addition to the cost of service they have already extracted. That's acting in bad faith - or fraud, in my books.

No one needs healthcare until they need it. Seems perhaps you have not had such need, yet. May you never have such need. That is not justification for denying it to others. The matter is not about rights, it's about possibilities. Providing good healthcare to citizens, without bankrupting them, is entirely achievable.

And what's this bit about stealing people's money? Do you mean taxes?


Z.


_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:47:37 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		OK, Rich - so it's hard evidence of your assertions but I can't have the facts.

Guess we are done.


Z.


_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 1:04:33 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Two simple facts that nobody has failed to even consider.

1) To fund a nationwide health care system, the government has to have the money.
2) The government has a negative balance in the budget, which means, there is no money to run a national health care system.

Where, in all the government run agencies are you going to find the money to run one hospital, let alone a nationwide health system?

The United States works on a 'rob peter to pay paul' accounting system.  In fact, if a business were run in the same manner, someone would end up in jail... oh wait, a bunch did, I think it was called ENRON.

Then you would have to find a kick ass take names person to run the agency, one that cant be bribed, controlled, handled, influenced, or otherwise rendered immoral, indecent, and unethical.  And if you did find such a person, Congress would not approve them.

There are a number of county and city run hospitals in the United States, most operate at a loss, simply because they are either teaching hospitals, handle the uninsured and homeless, and are on the bottem of the appropriations barrel, behind police and fire.


I'd try to explain where the money will come from, but I feel like it would just be a waste of time. Every time I have seen a doctor or other healthcare professional (like my ex-wife, who was VP of Healthcare Services for Peoplesoft and Oracle; now with Lawson) explain it, certain people do the   routine because the facts conflict with their ideology. 

All those who support the status quo have had years to prove that said system is more economical and effective than single-payer. They haven't done so because they can't. They just regurgitate the tired old "gummint cain't do nuthin' right" rhetoric. Same old right-wing bullshit.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 1:05:26 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Two simple facts that nobody has failed to even consider.

1) To fund a nationwide health care system, the government has to have the money.
2) The government has a negative balance in the budget, which means, there is no money to run a national health care system.



The USA spends more on its military than the next thirteen largest military spending countries put together and has troops in over 50 countries.

The US has money enough but it prefers to have an empire and dominate other countries and even kill foreigners than to provide all its citizens with world class healthcare.

Its a question of priorities.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/10/2008 1:06:51 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 6:23:09 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		"An obscene profit, in healthcare, would be anything over and above the return necessary to operate the system and to compensate staff and suppliers fairly for their contributions."

So NO PROFIT at all.
By definition profit is what's left AFTER expenses are paid. your definition costitutes profit of $0.
So 1% return on investment is obscene in healthcare, now the question is what other places is this obscene profit definition applied.


< Message edited by Archer -- 7/10/2008 6:24:28 AM >

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 11:25:30 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...ok, but as another poster has pointed out, in order to make a reasonable analysis we have to compare government run stuff with privately run stuff. Is corporately run medical care in the US an unmitigated success? Does it treat everyone who needs it (and i don't mean just stabilising someone, does it provide physio for example), is it value for money? Is it doing its part to prevent days lost to industry due to sickness and ill-health?


first off, hippy, noone *needs* health care. people want it. let's keep this conversation clear of pathos and your subjective emotions. there is no *right* to healthcare.



.......ok, calling me a hippy may be an attempt at insult but it doesn't make me want to cry, besides your hair appears as long as mine.
As to your assertion that no-one needs health care, well, that's clearly false. An innocent pedestrian, wandering legally down a sidewalk is hit by a car......they end up with two broken legs, a number of broken ribs and suspected internal injuries.......now, according to your thesis that pedestrian doesn't need healthcare.
A child, born to working poor parents, has trouble breathing.......but according to you health care is merely optional.

These are not examples of pathos, or inappropriate emoting. They are fairly run of the mill scenarios. In both cases the individual needing health care is in that position through no choice of their own, but the universe throws a curve ball their way.  Attemting to characterise such peoples need for health care as voluntary is to attempt to distort reality to fit an ideological position.

(in reply to variation30)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:28:33 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		There can be no RIGHT to healthcare because to exercise the right to healthcare you must step on the right of the doctor to decide what his price is. To have a "right" to healthcare you have to conclude that a doctor can be forced by government to give his effort time education etc at a pay rate determined by the government. Now again no twisting this to mean I don't care if the poor get healthcare. I have no problem with the idea of providing it for those unable to provide it for themselves.
However, of the 47 million counted as not having insurance 12 million are illegal aliens
That's down to 35 million who don't have insurance now.
Almost 3 million children eligable for medicade are not enroled (Congressional Budget Office CBO figures)
Now we're down to 32 million
10 million (26% of the uninsured population are at 200% or higher than the poverty level in income CBO figures (and as such could make lifestyle choices that would certainly make insurance affordable for a large portion of that ie they choose a new car and no insurance over a used car and health coverage)
Now we're down to 22 million That are not currently qualified for medicaid and not insured generally due to cost.

We've wittled the number down from 47 to 22 million without doing much more than exclude those who can afford but choose not to buy insurance, enroling those eligable for medicaid but not, and culling the illegal aliens from the number.

So the real question is how to cover those 22 million citizens who really have the need for help.

79% report cost as the significant hurdle for insurance CBO figures.
61% of those actually have not employer sponsored program available
So how do we make it more affordable?

Well the 2004 WSJ opinion piece here http://online.wsj.com/article/SB110246983094993976.html?mod=opinion%255Fmain%255Fcommentaries
certainly is a very simple tax law change that would reduce insurance costs and reduce the number of uninsured.
This is the original piece where the ide ai have posted several times came from.


< Message edited by Archer -- 7/10/2008 12:37:23 PM >

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:36:33 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		I agree with Philosophy, unless you have no care wether  you live or die, yes, I think healthcare is a need, not a want, But then I also believe it should be a right for everyone, blame that on the NHS and Canadas  Health Programmes from which I have had extremely good healthcare on the whole
I find it obscene when people cant get treatment and die or become chronically sick because some non government (read insurance company pen pusher and or bean counter) beaurocrat decides that their treatment is against their policies or cost too much.
All agencies, have problems and bad shit goes down but to say that people shouldnt have universal health  care because the "gubmint " cant organise a pissup in a brewery is way beyond a joke to me. Find a way to make it work, letting people die because they just cant afford it,  is and will always be obscene in my mind.



_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 12:43:40 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I find it obscene when people cant get treatment and die or become chronically sick because some non government (read insurance company pen pusher and or bean counter) beaurocrat decides that their treatment is against their policies or cost too much.



And nobody is ever denied proceedures and dies because a government worker makes a bad call and deecides not to fund a proceedure????? plenty of stories about that available too.

That was part of the point I made earlier not that it is good for either to make that decission but I certainly don't want the government worker making that decission for me. Forced to choose between a bean counter from the government and a bean counter from the insurance company I'll take the Insurance company bean counter.

I'm not saying don't solve the problem I'm saying there is a better way than handing the whole thing for everyone over to the government.
I want a solution I happen to think a solution can be had with minimal government involvement.

< Message edited by Archer -- 7/10/2008 12:58:00 PM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 2:02:30 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Forced to choose between a bean counter from the government and a bean counter from the insurance company I'll take the Insurance company bean counter.



...i think this is the crux of the matter. While respecting your take on this Archer, i have to admit i'll take a government bean counter over a corporate one. i can vote for the civil servants bosses, i have no control over the corporate boss. Additionally, both bosses have different priorities. The corporate one exists only to maximise profit. The government one exists to serve the people......and i'll take people over profit anyday of the week.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 2:41:47 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		On the other hand with the corporate one I can fire the entire company.
At will, if I'm the one paying the entire bill. Sorry Mr Somestate Insurance rep, I'm canceling my policy and going to Regressive Insurance instead.
Try that with a government bean counter, LOL.
I know profit is his motivation so I know exactly where to hurt them.
and I can do it any time of the year if it's a private paid policy and once a year if employer provided. Instead of once every two to 6 years and only fireing the boss.



(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 3:14:29 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

On the other hand with the corporate one I can fire the entire company.
At will, if I'm the one paying the entire bill. Sorry Mr Somestate Insurance rep, I'm canceling my policy and going to Regressive Insurance instead.
Try that with a government bean counter, LOL.
I know profit is his motivation so I know exactly where to hurt them.
and I can do it any time of the year if it's a private paid policy and once a year if employer provided. Instead of once every two to 6 years and only fireing the boss.





....but that only works if enough people fire the company.......after all, what's one persons policy worth to a company? There are plenty of apocryphal examples of health-corps dumping the customers that cost them the most. Corporations don't have to treat everyone. In fact, it hurts their profits if they do so.

Oh, and back in your post 50, you managed to whittle down those in the US without healthcare coverage from 47million to 22million.
22 million? Surely even that reduced number is a scandal? And if so, doesn't it prove that the corporate vision of health care in the US is not working?

Sheer profit can't be a reasonable excuse to deny 22 million people health care.

< Message edited by philosophy -- 7/10/2008 3:15:18 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 3:19:32 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		1. Doctors with a record of incompetence need to have thier licences to practice pulled.

2. Malpractice lawsuits need to be capped. That includes the percentage a lawyer can take. 20 percent or less. Eliminate huge the payoffs for the shysters, and frivolous suits will decline greatly.

3. Insurance companies need to be regulated.

4. Any red tape needs to be reviewed and streamlined. Cases diagnosed as serious need to be fast tracked-even if it means paying overtime to the paper shufflers doing it-or hiring on more.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 5:34:20 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		philosophy, certainly the number cannot be eliminated entirely on a for profit basis, there are going to be a certain set of people who simply cannot be handled in a for profit system. I'm not against expanding from the bottom up as well as the top down to handle the problem. ie handle the top down by reducing insurance costs, and increasing the responsiveness of insurance companies by making it individually competative, when they have to satisfy the customer instead of the head of the HR department, the service goes up in quality and the costs are better controled. Bottom up expand medicaid or an improved version to cover whatever is left after reducing from the top.

(in reply to Leatherist)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 6:28:13 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy



...i think this is the crux of the matter. While respecting your take on this Archer, i have to admit i'll take a government bean counter over a corporate one. i can vote for the civil servants bosses, i have no control over the corporate boss.


          But we DO get to vote for the corporate boss, Phil, and we don't have to wait two, four, or six years to do it.  You vote with your wallet.  You vote with your feet.

       Also, that corporation must compete with other corporations.  Despite the current notion that everybody should be a 'winner,' competition is what keeps society moving forward, and keeps us on our toes.  What competition does the government have?

       Then you have the matter of oversight.  Do we really want the auditors and investigators working for the same entity that runs the place?  I'll refer you back to the link I posted for Zensee earlier in this thread about how badly the oversight failed at this hospital.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 8:20:06 PM   
MisterBeast


Posts: 142
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline 		Yes yes yes, Really, lets put the people who brought us FEMA in charge of our health care, and while we are at it, lets jack everyone's taxes another 10-20% to pay for it. God knows our economy is unstobably right now, and people have the money laying around to afford that cause gas is cheap and everyone has a good job because we are still the manufacturing capitol of the world right?

All joking aside, if you want the people in the government running your healthcare your a fricking moron, I have delt with Tricare Prime, dont know what it is? look it up. It is a moster fuckup that our government beats our Veterans over the head with. LAME!


_____________________________

"I’ve seen what is coming, I put myself inside his head, I’ve become the thing we fear the most, I’ve become capable of becoming the horror that we know we can become only in our heart of darkness, my gift my curse."

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care - 7/10/2008 10:31:58 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MisterBeast

I have delt with Tricare Prime, dont know what it is? look it up. It is a moster fuckup that our government beats our Veterans over the head with. LAME!



Tricare Prime is administered by the Department of Defense, not the VA...it replaced CHAMPUS for active duty, dependents and retirees.

Veterans get the multi-tiered access to VA health care.

Both have plenty to criticize.

(in reply to MisterBeast)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: A Good Reason to Oppose Government Run Health Care Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094