RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message


Zensee -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 10:50:33 PM)

Wow. Batting zero for two here Rich, when it comes to non-issue threads. But playing the racism card, that's sure to generate plenty more heat and smoke than the ghost of socialism in the HealthScare thread.  You might just get away with a walk on this one... Pretty crafty.

So WTF exactly does Multiculturalism, as a formal or informal concept, have to do with a criminal act by man claiming his culture allows him to commit the murder of his children (or of anyone, for that matter)? Where, in this case, does Multiculturalism justify this mans actions? In what way has it enabled him or defended him? Which Multiculturalists are on record excusing his actions or the actions of others like him?

Nowhere? No body? None. Nothing? (again)

Yeah! Right there in the good old US of A - people from all over the  world, and some of them are fucked up but most of them are pretty good folks just trying to find a better life. So what's your solution to the non problem of Multiculturalism, Rich?

What's your thesis? What's precisely is this Multiculturalism at whose feet you lay this heinous crime? Do you even have a point or are you just sending out sparks hoping something will catch?


Z.




TheHeretic -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 10:58:53 PM)

        And there you go, Zensee, throwing out the "rascism" label.    Culture and race are two completely different things.   Tell me, what "race" would I be going after here?   The people who should be ashamed of themselves because they refuse to talk about this issue?  I look like them.

      It's easy to talk about batting averages when you don't step up to the plate yourself...




philosophy -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 11:01:31 PM)

...are you opposed to multiculturalism? If so, why?




Zensee -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 11:05:52 PM)

Am I wrong then? Are you not playing the racial card? Please prove me wrong.

Let's hear the meat of your thesis, Rich. What's the point of your thread. Spell it out. Don't be shy. Editorialise away.

You are long on provocation but short on particulars. I already asked for definitions and clarifications and you dodged them

I'm not swinging at anything until you pitch it. So far it's been all spit and wind-up.


Z.




DomAviator -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 11:08:19 PM)

Amen Heritic... The favorite liberal argument - any time we are offended by something contrary to civilized behavior or good social order toss out the "racist card". In another thread I was repeatedly called a bigot racist etc for daring to refer to a person arrested, tried, convicted, and imprisoned for the bombing and arson of an admitted 221 govt buildings a criminal...




FirmhandKY -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 11:14:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...are you opposed to multiculturalism? If so, why?


Won't answer for Rich, but I'm opposed to multiculturalism, as currently "practiced".

I'm all for cultural toleration.

Multiculturalism as practiced in much of the West is equal to saying that Western cultural is unworthy, unfortunate, and less than any other culture.

I take exception to that concept, especially when it is Western culture which has provided so many of the ideals that I hold dear.

Uncritical acceptance of multiculturalism is analogous to a group of people deciding to become pacifists and give up their protective arms in the middle of a war in which no quarter is given. They expect, that since they are now pacifists, that everyone else will "see the light" and become pacifists as well. Kinda admirable.

But kinda stupid as well.

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 11:18:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Am I wrong then? Are you not playing the racial card? Please prove me wrong.

Let's hear the meat of your thesis, Rich. What's the point of your thread. Spell it out. Don't be shy. Editorialise away.

You are long on provocation but short on particulars. I already asked for definitions and clarifications and you dodged them

I'm not swinging at anything until you pitch it. So far it's been all spit and wind-up.


Z.



I gotta say, it's a pot-kettle-black situation, you demanding detailed expositions on a point, when you mostly just hit-and-run and splatter lefty stereotypes on anyone with which you disagree.

Firm




jlf1961 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 11:21:39 PM)

Actually slaveboy, it was legal under territorial law in many of the southwestern states.  And it happened, unfortunately, and almost always in connection to some stupid fued or range war.

If you were to check the laws that were applied to the territories, you would find many things different.  In states, horse theft was not a hanging offense, just a prison offense.  In the territories, it was a hanging offense, as was cattle theft, bank robbery and a few other crimes. 

The territorial judge at fort smith for the indian territories had the largest gallows in the United States, with hangings twice a week.

Issac Parker sentenced 160 men to death and hanged 79 of them. 

In other territories, were big cattle was the law of the land, families were more like fuedal lords, hence the name cattle barons.  In the state of texas, there were at least two incidents where the fleeing couple were hunted down and shot.  The members of the posses were never brought to trial.

It also occured in the New Mexico territory, Wyoming and the Montana territories.

If you will look into your history, you will find that a father or husband had absolute power over the women in the family.  Arranged marrages were common, and there were instances where when the daughter balked, she was executed.  It happened in Italy, France and England.

There were occasions where the offending daughter was sold or even cast into a nunnery, which was just as bad.  While she was not an acolyte, she was nothing more than a slave or servant to the sisters in the convent.

None of these things were good at the time, and neither is the honor killings that occur around the world.  I find it absolutely disgusting that a woman can be killed for disagreeing with their families.  There is presently a court battle going on concerning a marine who married a princess from Bahran who will be executed if she is returned to her family for not marrying the man she was supposed to.

The kicker is that the US state department and department of immigration who should protect the woman and grant her asylum for humanitarian reasons are still trying to deport her.  According to the Investigation Discovery show which aired the story, at present two marine jag officers are trying to help the couple.

It is a question of oil from Bahran or the life of a young woman.  I have the bad feeling the oil is going to win out.

DA, if you had read the quote at the bottom of the post I made, "Honor does not have to be defended" you would understand exactly what I am trying to say.  I do not see how honor is saved for any one if it comes at the cost of the life of a young woman.

Honor does not have to be defended, and it takes a higher virtue to stand and give the child the right to make his or her own way in life. 

The person in the trial the op mentioned had married a non-muslim, under the very strict code of justice he was using to defend his actions, he had dishonored his family.  Thus, he should have been killed.

A muslim cannot marry a non muslim, it is a crime that is punishable by death.  And this guy claims he was trying to save his honor?  Talk about a double standard!

Now DA, how should we, who find this man's actions morally and ethically wrong in every sense  of the word deal with a state department that might deport the wife of a marine to a country where her family is sure to kill her?




QuietPeppermint -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 11:28:26 PM)

....

That link, http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE7D81231F93BA15753C1A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1, made me feel physically sick.


&it is very hard for me ever to feel physically sick.





I don't see a matter of multiculturalism, it's a matter of unacceptable violations of human rights.




Zensee -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 11:37:02 PM)

Hi, KY. Get with the program. Heretic owes us some substance and definitions. You making bland accusations against me doesn't change that. I have said nothing about lefty/righty but I have asked for some clarification and explanation of his terms and thesis.

Is there a problem with that?


Z.




TheHeretic -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 11:46:39 PM)

      I didn't need to dodge anything, Zensee.  You were throwing at that nice strawman you built.   I'm over here.  Please provide some evidence to back your filthy accusation, or retract it with an apology.


      I'll proceed for the moment on the assumption that you will coming through with a bit of character.

     What's wrong with multiculuralism?  Nothing.  It's what flavors the marvelous stew from the American melting pot.  You will please note the thread title.  I have a problem with too much of it.  I have a problem with placing the whole "respect and tolerance" thing above the fundamental concern for human rights abuse.  I have a problem with people who claim to treasure such things forgetting all about them.  I really have a problem when I can't shake the feeling it's because partisan hatred is more important to them.

       Whether you man-up and apologize or not, if all you can do is try to shove me into to some extreme position you feel competent to argue against, I'll keep right on reserving the right to ignore your pushes in that direction.

      It's much more interesting in the gray.

    




DomAviator -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 11:54:44 PM)

jlf, she shouldnt be here... Obviously there is a reason the state dept doesnt want her here and if she is not being granted asylum there is a damn good reason. She is probably a terrorist threat, and they cant reveal it without compromising intel.  Im assuming also that this Marine did not seek the approriate approval to marry a foreign national and if his chit aint signed - bye bye bye! In my book, Navy regulations take precedence over all else. My dad had absolutely no problem bringing my mom home from South Africa... But he got his chit signed and did the appropriate paperwork. Her family was none too happy about the marriage either - a senior officer's daughter marrying an American NCO talk about taboo in not one but two navies and a TDY gone horribly wrong... Yet the paperwork went through just fine. If this chick isnt granted the right to stay in this country dont let the door hit her where the good lord split her... I suggest we round up a few hundred others to accompany her on the flight home so she wont be lonely... I fully support our State Dept, as well as homeland security, in whatever they may do when it comes to any foreign national. It is their job to deny access to the unwanted, unwelcome and unworthy many of whom come with sob stories and tales of woe....




FirmhandKY -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/9/2008 11:58:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Hi, KY. Get with the program. Heretic owes us some substance and definitions. You making bland accusations against me doesn't change that. I have said nothing about lefty/righty but I have asked for some clarification and explanation of his terms and thesis.

Is there a problem with that?


Z.



Hi, Z.

I just call 'em like I see 'em. Rich is more than capable of answering (or not, as he chooses) his race-baiting attackers.

While I don't know Rich's heart, I have serious doubts that he is racist. Perhaps he has said some intemperate things? (Or perhaps its just that he holds some political beliefs which clash with your particular belief system, other than racism?)

Just from this thread, it looks like you are attempting to use accusations of personal perfidy (racism) in order to denigrate the man, thereby discrediting all of his beliefs.

Basically a smartly deceptive ad hominem attack, combined with a secondary rhetorical attack of attempted derailment (get him lost in the weeds so that you can find something - anything - to discredit him in another way).

*shrugs*

These are common techniques of people who have a "lefty" belief system. All I did was point it out.

We "of the 'right' " have been noticing that Obama and his philosophical brethren are pretty good at playing the race card by accusing everyone who disagrees with the tenets of "leftism" as "racists" in some way. Again, an old "lefty" trick, but one that has gained even greater currency this election season.

Firm





jlf1961 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 12:05:38 AM)

Well it seems that the state department stood up for the rights of the marine bride/bahran princess, then the marine was cashiered. 

Which in my opinion was not right.

However, considering that the United States has in the past made some real bonehead decisions, at least the conviction of the man for killing his daughter is a good one. 

Too bad we cant save all of the daughters in the world.

The simple fact is that Islamic Law is so set in such an ancient culture that it would take a miracle to bring it to the modern world.

Our Muslim allies that use that code of laws, have in recent years stoned women for adultery, stoned the victims of rape, among other things.

Of course, they behead the rapist... and call it justification.

You know with that logic, I can justify a few thousand criminal acts, but it wouldnt  make em right.

While I hesitate to condemn a religion, the Islamic faith accepts Christ as a prophet, and when you consider that, I am trying to figure out how in the world Islamic law will allow such brutal actions.  Did not Christ say, "he who is without sin cast the first stone"?

In which case, where on this planet can any Muslim country find a man or woman who is without sin?




Zensee -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 12:17:26 AM)

OK - back to basics. Article - man murders daughter. Thread - A little too much Muiticulturalism is to blame.

No racism here folks, just keep moving along.

Right.

Now that you have actually offered up your own version of what you meant I may look like I was wrong but that's the convenient effect of you deciding what you meant after the fact.

I am not about to "man-up" and aplogise for calling out your OP, which was incomplete and incendiary. You want to make sparks, you will start fires. Man-up to that.


Z.




TheHeretic -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 12:23:44 AM)

        Did you happen to notice the snip I led the post with, Zensee?  The part where he told the judge he had done nothing wrong?  Yeah.  That's a little too multicultural for me to swallow.

        And something rather important was missing from your post.  Buh-bye.




popeye1250 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 12:53:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Wow. Batting zero for two here Rich, when it comes to non-issue threads. But playing the racism card, that's sure to generate plenty more heat and smoke than the ghost of socialism in the HealthScare thread.  You might just get away with a walk on this one... Pretty crafty.

So WTF exactly does Multiculturalism, as a formal or informal concept, have to do with a criminal act by man claiming his culture allows him to commit the murder of his children (or of anyone, for that matter)? Where, in this case, does Multiculturalism justify this mans actions? In what way has it enabled him or defended him? Which Multiculturalists are on record excusing his actions or the actions of others like him?

Nowhere? No body? None. Nothing? (again)

Yeah! Right there in the good old US of A - people from all over the  world, and some of them are fucked up but most of them are pretty good folks just trying to find a better life. So what's your solution to the non problem of Multiculturalism, Rich?

What's your thesis? What's precisely is this Multiculturalism at whose feet you lay this heinous crime? Do you even have a point or are you just sending out sparks hoping something will catch?


Z.



Zensee, how is islam a "race?"
"Racism?"
Looks like "The Religion of Peace" strikes again!
I wouldn't let in anyone of the muslim faith into America.
Of course I don't much care for *any* "religion."
I think they should *all* be outlawed.




Zensee -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 12:58:35 AM)

Yes I saw the part where he did he did nothing wrong. And I understand that he claims cultural justification for that stand. What you have not made clear is how too much multiculturalism contributed to this man's delusion. You have made no substantive link between your evidence and your thesis.

What filthy accusation have I made?



Z.




jlf1961 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 3:09:19 AM)

Multiculturalism generally refers to a de facto and state of racial, culturalethnic diversity within the demographics of a specified place, usually at the scale of an organization such as a school, business, neighbourhood, city or nation.

Charles Sanders Peirce, William James, George Santayana, Horace Kallen, John Dewey, W.E.B. Du Bois and Alain Locke developed concepts of cultural pluralism, from which emerged what we understand today as multiculturalism.

The op made is "A Little  Too much Multiculturalism" clearly stating there was a problem with this happening in the United States were Multiculturalism and Pluralism are espoused as wonderful ideals.

Thus the op clearly goes against the theory put forth by William James concerning a plural society. 

Under that theory, all cultures could be blended into one plural society to form the basis of philosophy and social humanism to build a better society.

In the United States, multiculturalism is a national policy, which is where this conflict as stated in the title to the thread is made quite clear.
quote:

Zensee
But playing the racism card, that's sure to generate plenty more heat and smoke


That statement is a false arguement, at no point was racism mentioned.  What has been mentioned is religion, which is part of a cultural make up of a society, but not part of the racial construction of the same society.

Clearly, there are cases in which the national policy of  multiculturalism is unworkable, and this is one.  Just as female circumcision would be another, or the killing of a female infant because it has less value than a male.

For the United States to truly be multicultural, this would have been legal on religious grounds.  But then the killing of White Anglo Saxons by Native Americans would also be legal on moral grounds due to the theft of land and attempts to destroy the various indigenous  cultures.

Thus the argument is against the hypocrisy of stating the United States is a true multicultural society, which clearly anyone can see.  Complete multiculturalism while a stated national policy is clearly not the case, there are certain exclusions, which I am sure you would agree.

People who come to this country under the misguided belief that they could continue unrestrained practice of religions that allow for such acts as honor killings, polygamy, ritualized vendettas, ethnic conflict, even the murder of non-believers are in for a rude awakening, as this man has had.

There are some who would take the declared national policy and use it as a defense against prosecution, and they could quite easily win, except that the wisdom of most people would see the fault in such an argument. 

Perhaps your statement is clouded by past arguments and debates with the originator of this statement?

The simple fact is that the ritual honor killing of a daughter is wrong, on both moral and ethical grounds, and there is no way to justify it in a modern society.
It is also fact that many cultures around the world will defend that belief until their very last breath, hence the existence of religious fundamentalist who call any act of violence an act of holy war.

None of which has anything to do with racism.  Culture does not equate to race.  If a Caucasian were to practice Buddhism does that make him or her Asian?  Your racism comment clearly makes that a true statement.








winterlight -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 3:44:43 AM)

barbaric, outrageous and atrocious  (sp correct) i hope.. Codeine cough med kicking in..




Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.125