RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (Full Version)

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NeedingMore220 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 6:10:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

People who live under our laws need to respect them.
 
Culture is no excuse.


Agreed.  Westerners who choose not to obey, for example, Saudi Arabia's laws, are subject to their laws, which are incredibly strict.  I was reading a story today about a woman who had sex on a beach in Dubai (stupid, stupid!) and was arrested.  http://www.gadling.com/2008/07/09/having-sex-on-a-beach-can-get-you-jail-time/  Big trouble!  I don't think they're worried about multiculturalism in Dubai. 



Racquelle -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 8:21:42 PM)

quote:

I wouldn't let in anyone of the muslim faith into America.


Yuck.

Just plain old fukin' yuck.

Some humans make me ashamed to be of the same race (human, being the only race).



TheHeretic -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 8:44:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

However, you bring up an intriguing point. Where, exactly, is the middle ground? i would suggest that many of us honestly believe that we are the middle ground. Perhaps i could offer this thought.......Level and i are both moderates, Level is a right leaning moderate and i am a left leaning moderate. Cyberdude is more definitely right wing, Meatcleaver is more definitely left wing.
The real difference is how we listen and respond to those who disagree with us.

Bold added


          Now this I have to disagree with, Phil.  Your position is not determined by your presentation.  That you express a very socialistic outlook (as I read it, anyway) in a very civil and moderate voice, does not change the nature of the ideas.  Shall we locate a political/social/economic theory on the spectrum simply by the proponents choice of term and tone?

         

            



hisannabelle -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 8:45:59 PM)

quote:

"In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable," said Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.

The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."


thanks for posting this, vendaval.

quote:

A muslim cannot marry a non muslim, it is a crime that is punishable by death.  And this guy claims he was trying to save his honor?  Talk about a double standard!


funny, i missed the whole "crime punishable by death" part in my own study of the qur'an and sunnah...perhaps someone can help me out here. technically, according to islam, muslim men cannot marry women who are not jewish, muslim, or christian. technically, according to islam, muslim women cannot marry non-muslim men. in practice, both things happen rather often, and i have yet to see where it says that death is the proper punishment for this.

quote:

I wouldn't let in anyone of the muslim faith into America.


nice to know. those of us darn mozlems whose ancestors were in america before yours will try to take that into account so we don't let anymore upstart immigrants such as you in ourselves :)

quote:

barbaric, outrageous and atrocious  (sp correct) i hope.. Codeine cough med kicking in..


the term "barbarism" comes directly from references to the "berber" ethnic minority in northern africa, and has pretty much always been used to "other" any culture or practice that's termed "barbaric." "outrageous" and "atrocious" would be much better words to use here if that's what you actually mean.

quote:

I'm not opposed to multiculturalism, but I am against the "It's a cultural difference..." defense.  This an an example of "cultural differences" that do not excuse atrocities.


amen.

quote:

I agree, pretty abominable yet they claim it is "part of their religion."


yet again, i have yet to meet any muslims who claim that honor killing is a part of islam. i have yet to see any authentic scripture that verifies that the prophet salallahu alayhi wa salaam condoned honor killing. i do know many muslims (women especially) who are at the forefront of the battle to stop this practice in the name of islam, however.



hisannabelle -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 8:49:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

People who live under our laws need to respect them.
 
Culture is no excuse.


Agreed.  Westerners who choose not to obey, for example, Saudi Arabia's laws, are subject to their laws, which are incredibly strict.  I was reading a story today about a woman who had sex on a beach in Dubai (stupid, stupid!) and was arrested.  http://www.gadling.com/2008/07/09/having-sex-on-a-beach-can-get-you-jail-time/  Big trouble!  I don't think they're worried about multiculturalism in Dubai. 


erm...last i checked, having sex on a beach in AMERICA can get you arrested. having sex in public anywhere is not so bright. also, comparing saudi arabia and the uae is apples and oranges.

but anyway, i agree that people who live under our laws should respect our laws.



NeedingMore220 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/10/2008 9:06:58 PM)

quote:


erm...last i checked, having sex on a beach in AMERICA can get you arrested. having sex in public anywhere is not so bright. also, comparing saudi arabia and the uae is apples and oranges.

but anyway, i agree that people who live under our laws should respect our laws.



I agree.



jlf1961 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 5:19:48 AM)

quote:


quote:

A muslim cannot marry a non muslim, it is a crime that is punishable by death. And this guy claims he was trying to save his honor? Talk about a double standard!



funny, i missed the whole "crime punishable by death" part in my own study of the qur'an and sunnah...perhaps someone can help me out here. technically, according to islam, muslim men cannot marry women who are not jewish, muslim, or christian. technically, according to islam, muslim women cannot marry non-muslim men. in practice, both things happen rather often, and i have yet to see where it says that death is the proper punishment for this.


I apologize for my mis understanding.



TNstepsout -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 5:45:39 AM)

Yes we are so much further ahead that we have places in this country in which 12 year old girls are being forced to marry old men and we can do nothing about it because of "religious freedom". It's so easy to throw stones at other cultures without understanding the principles that underly their perceptions. Do you really think what this man did is considered normal or acceptable in his country of origin? I seriously hope that America is not judged abroad by our whack jobs! There are always going to be exremists who take every idea or principal to it's extreme, or who use it to justify bad behavior. That doesn't mean that every person from that country or culture believes in and supports those concepts.

My daughter works at a bookstore and recently they had a Christian writer come in to do a book signing. She read a bit of the book to find out what it was about. In it the women states that if you have sex outside of marriage that you are opening yourself up to the "homosexual demon". I'm not making this up. This was published this year. She also works with a man whose wife does not believe in outer space. Nope- as far as she is concerned it's just a big painted sparkly bowl that God made.

So really, with people like that in our midst, do you think we're any better?



hisannabelle -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 7:12:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

Yes we are so much further ahead that we have places in this country in which 12 year old girls are being forced to marry old men and we can do nothing about it because of "religious freedom".


to this day, marriage is legal for girls as young as 13 in new hampshire and 14 in some other states with parent and court permission. not that long ago, the age was much younger. :\ in some states, the age for girls is lower than that for boys, as well. :\



camille65 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 7:16:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

<snipped>

My daughter works at a bookstore and recently they had a Christian writer come in to do a book signing. She read a bit of the book to find out what it was about. In it the women states that if you have sex outside of marriage that you are opening yourself up to the "homosexual demon". I'm not making this up. This was published this year. She also works with a man whose wife does not believe in outer space. Nope- as far as she is concerned it's just a big painted sparkly bowl that God made.

So really, with people like that in our midst, do you think we're any better?



I think it is great that someone can get a book published without being censored.
I think too, that refusing to believe in science is not limited to the USA.  'Those' people are not just in our midst, they are everywhere.



NeedingMore220 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 7:22:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout
So really, with people like that in our midst, do you think we're any better?



These are examples of people who believe things outside the possible norm.  They're not people killing their kids for not toeing the line.  Yes, I do believe we're better than a country which sanctions stonings of rape victims.  Actually, in a way, because there is such room in the US for different beliefs that even the sparkly bowl people can find a place for themselves to flourish, I think we're better. 



philosophy -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 9:31:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

However, you bring up an intriguing point. Where, exactly, is the middle ground? i would suggest that many of us honestly believe that we are the middle ground. Perhaps i could offer this thought.......Level and i are both moderates, Level is a right leaning moderate and i am a left leaning moderate. Cyberdude is more definitely right wing, Meatcleaver is more definitely left wing.
The real difference is how we listen and respond to those who disagree with us.

Bold added


         Now this I have to disagree with, Phil.  Your position is not determined by your presentation.  That you express a very socialistic outlook (as I read it, anyway) in a very civil and moderate voice, does not change the nature of the ideas.  Shall we locate a political/social/economic theory on the spectrum simply by the proponents choice of term and tone?

        

           


...interesting. A careful read of my posting history ought to lead an impartial observer that my ideal society is a mixed economy. One where infrastructure is nationalised, but industry is free to compete in areas where competition is healthy.
This differentiates me from socialists who see such a society as a staging point for a wholly nationalised society, and also differentiates me those who want nothing at all run by a government. If we posit a scale with pure communism at one end and zero government at the other, my position is more or less in the middle.
Is it possible that, because you apparently wish to see virtually nothing run by a government, you see anyone who wants a social structure government-run as a socialist?  This is what i mean when i wrote about how we listen and respond. To use a metapor.....if we are in the West of a country, everyone else is East. If we are in the East of a country everyone else is West. A communist sees all who disagree as capitalists, a capitalist see all who disagree as communists. However, those in the middle of the country can see East and West in their proper contexts.



jlf1961 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 10:13:57 AM)

We can argue the point of Honor killings, stoning of adulterers, until two weeks after doomsday.

Unfortunately, our debate will not change anything in the outside world, UNLESS we support organizations that are trying to put a stop to these atrocities.

I would like to point out, one indisputable fact, that many in the US fail to grasp.

When we as a people condemn the whole of Islam for the actions of a small minority, we are not any different than that minority that condemn us for our beliefs.

The prophet Mohammad gave his message to all of the "people of the book," meaning Jews, Muslims AND Christians.  The whole of Islam does not condone honor killings, terrorism, fanaticism, or the attacks on Christian and Jewish people.


Forget religion, forget race, look at the one thing we can all agree on, any atrocity committed against any one on this planet is an atrocity committed against ourselves.

I really hate the fact that after a group session I have all this compassion for my fellow man!  It is a hell of a lot easier to think of the human race as 1/3 intelligent people and 2/3rds people that shouldnt breed.



slvemike4u -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 10:40:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

However, you bring up an intriguing point. Where, exactly, is the middle ground? i would suggest that many of us honestly believe that we are the middle ground. Perhaps i could offer this thought.......Level and i are both moderates, Level is a right leaning moderate and i am a left leaning moderate. Cyberdude is more definitely right wing, Meatcleaver is more definitely left wing.
The real difference is how we listen and respond to those who disagree with us.

Bold added


        Now this I have to disagree with, Phil.  Your position is not determined by your presentation.  That you express a very socialistic outlook (as I read it, anyway) in a very civil and moderate voice, does not change the nature of the ideas.  Shall we locate a political/social/economic theory on the spectrum simply by the proponents choice of term and tone?

       

          


...interesting. A careful read of my posting history ought to lead an impartial observer that my ideal society is a mixed economy. One where infrastructure is nationalised, but industry is free to compete in areas where competition is healthy.
This differentiates me from socialists who see such a society as a staging point for a wholly nationalised society, and also differentiates me those who want nothing at all run by a government. If we posit a scale with pure communism at one end and zero government at the other, my position is more or less in the middle.
Is it possible that, because you apparently wish to see virtually nothing run by a government, you see anyone who wants a social structure government-run as a socialist?  This is what i mean when i wrote about how we listen and respond. To use a metapor.....if we are in the West of a country, everyone else is East. If we are in the East of a country everyone else is West. A communist sees all who disagree as capitalists, a capitalist see all who disagree as communists. However, those in the middle of the country can see East and West in their proper contexts.
So that makes You what Philo a *gasp* moderate...is there no way we can exclude Your reactionary views from coloring the more politically extreme viewpoints usully heard here...we have no need on these boards for reasoned and carefully thought out opinions....(removes tongue from cheek)



jlf1961 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 10:59:26 AM)

Moderates should be taken out and shot!!!!
Or, at the very least make them watch every episode of Dr Phil 500 times.



popeye1250 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 11:24:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Racquelle

quote:

I wouldn't let in anyone of the muslim faith into America.


Yuck.

Just plain old fukin' yuck.

Some humans make me ashamed to be of the same race (human, being the only race).

  

Racquelle, does that mean we can get rid of those "affirmative action" programs?
The U.S. has been called "that shinning city on the hill", but not for everyone in the world.
Immigration to (any) country is not a "right."
I don't see the "value" in letting say Hatians immigrate to the U.S. who believe in "zombies" and "voodoo" and having them set "voodoo" fires in their bathtubs and burn down apartment buildings like in the Boston,Mass area (Kennedy Country) and stay on all types of public assistance for generations.
Or let a couple hundred thousand of them remain in the country like Clinton did in Fla. to become drug dealers, rapists and murderers in the late 90's also all of them on most types of public assistance.
Where is the "Culturalism" there?
You mean to tell me that I'm going to "learn" something from sticking pins into a rag doll or studying "zombies?"
Hmm, maybe B.U. will have a course on it; "Hatian Studies"
A few years ago people were trying to make the argument that the price of tomatoes and lettuce would skyrocket if we stopped illegal aliens from entering the U.S.
How many lettuce and tomatoe pickers do we need, 60-80 thousand?
Probably not even that many!
We certainly don't need 20 million!
And no, I don't respect "religions."
There's no law saying that you have to respect any "religion."
After 9/11 I don't want anything to do with "islam."
Don't blame me blame bin laden and al qeada.
Sorry but killing a little girl because of some perceived slight just isn't "culture" to me.
If we're going to let anyone into this country it should be because they're highly educated or can *contribute* in some way.
WTF was Clinton thinking letting Hatians into this country?



philosophy -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 11:39:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Moderates should be taken out and shot!!!!
Or, at the very least make them watch every episode of Dr Phil 500 times.




ARGH....now that really is cruel and unusual.........



slvemike4u -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 11:59:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Moderates should be taken out and shot!!!!
Or, at the very least make them watch every episode of Dr Phil 500 times.




ARGH....now that really is cruel and unusual.........
Sadly for most on the right it probably wouldn't be cruel enough



hisannabelle -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 12:04:48 PM)

quote:

You mean to tell me that I'm going to "learn" something from sticking pins into a rag doll or studying "zombies?"
If we're going to let anyone into this country it should be because they're highly educated or can *contribute* in some way.


actually, us highly educated folks have learned a lot from haitians. :) go figure.



popeye1250 -> RE: A Little Too Much Multiculturalism (7/11/2008 12:11:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

quote:

You mean to tell me that I'm going to "learn" something from sticking pins into a rag doll or studying "zombies?"
If we're going to let anyone into this country it should be because they're highly educated or can *contribute* in some way.


actually, us highly educated folks have learned a lot from haitians. :) go figure.


LOL, sure you can!
I've "interacted" personally with Hatians while I was in the USCG.
I "learned" something from them too.



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