RE: I couldn't help Myself

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LadyPact -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/17/2008 4:44:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: undergroundsea I made a greater effort to learn about the history of BDSM upon hearing a comment from Midori encouraging it. I have learned about it over time by soaking in bits here and there, and I am glad to have learned it. What do you think those outside the leather culture can do to that would help you feel that they recognize the culture exists or are being respectful of the culture? Cheers, Sea Hello Sea, First, I'd like to thank you for providing such wonderful explanations to some of the questions and comments that have come up in this thread. It's great to see that you had an interest sparked and took the initiative to learn about people's ways that might be different than your own. I actually think many people are respectful of the culture. While most people aren't going to put the time and effort that you obviously have to learn about it, I think the majority of the time, people are courteous enough to accept that it exists. Really, that's all anyone can ask. It's actually quite rare that I find someone being specifically disrespectful (which was actually what spurned the OP) but it does happen. I'm generally a simple person, so I tend to use a simple analogy to explain how it might be looked at. Many people of Japanese decent don't wear the shoes that they have worn outside, when they are inside their home. To do so is disrespectful. You or I might not wear our shoes inside our home, simply because we don't want to get the carpet dirty. Same action. Two different reasons. Or, we might be the type to wear our shoes in our own home, but when we go to our Japanese friend's home, because of the way they live, we take our shoes off at the door. We may not believe that bringing in the outside dirt into the house as a sign of disrespect, but they certainly do. We certainly wouldn't be trodding through their living room in our sneakers. Now, let's parallel that to something in the leather culture. I received My Cover (that's the term you were looking for when you were talking about a Master's Cap) in April from a man that I greatly admire. Obviously, I am not it's first owner. My Cap has a history. In the ceremony that it was presented to Me, it was explained why I was receiving it. This man, along with My husband, My submissive, and other members of My leather family, felt that I had 'earned' this leather, because of the way I have dedicated Myself to living this life, the skills that I have learned as a Dominant, My service to the community, and My work to help further education of this lifestyle. (And, yep, you're right about it being an emotional thing. I cried.) It may look just like the one that another person bought at the fetish store yesterday, but to Me, Mine means something. I don't ask that the person who bought theirs hold the same meaning to it as I do. I just don't, figuratively, want them to trod through the living room wearing sneakers.[:)] quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst Which is why I asked what are the criteria? We see a lot of this "earning leathers" "old gaurd" bandied about but there doesn't seem to be any defining moment that grants someone that "right" to leathers. Actually, there are a lot of ways of earning leather. No, I wouldn't say there is a definitive list, and you're going to find that it can be different from place to place, leather family to leather family. This could become a very long post if anyone wanted to talk about all of the different ways people have earned their leather. quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst I wear leather because it looks good. I wear a collar only when playing and have never wanted to engage in a relationship with someone who thought that collars meant more than play. Kyst Fair enough. At the same time, can you also accept that to someone else, that collar might have a significant meaning? quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst My dominant gave me my leather jacket so I wouldnt burn another nylon shirt off if we spilled the bike again. Hon, that last part is just smart. Being someone who's butt has also hit the asphalt, it's just good sense to protect your body when you're on a bike.

ThundersCry -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/17/2008 4:50:52 PM)
Did I earn mine... That would depend on who would...ask. However...all my adult life I have worn leather items...nothing like lamb skin jeans...Just the smell of leather makes me.....spit Nothing like seeing a lady in a short leather skirt as well...of course in knee high boots =L= Good post...great responses

LadyPact -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/17/2008 5:19:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo Where does someone like me then fit in? This is not a fetish for me. You will never see me in fetish anything. But I also do buy into the "Old Guard" mentality. As a historian and a teacher I can appreciate it but I can't embrace or even say I think it's a good path for most people. Just FYI I go to events like IML and I feel right at home, I go to GLLA and I feel right at home. I think the only time I haven't felt at home was when someone attempted to promote one method that everyone had to use or you weren't "real". That first line is almost a cheat. You obviously "fit in" at lots of places. LOL. As a historian, you are probably in a much better position than most to understand that there are many different types of cultures. You wouldn't embrace them all. You would live the way that works for you, and from what I've gathered from many of the things that you have written, let other people live the one that works for them. Much like the same way that poly works for us both, but things in your house are run one way and things in My house are run another. Actually, I wouldn't necessarily say it's a good path for most people either. It's only a good path if it's something a person wants. Much like many monogamous folks wouldn't be happy walking on the poly path.

Missokyst -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/17/2008 6:01:24 PM)
I accept that people wear collars for different reasons. I choose men who have the same viewpoint as I, so that things work for us both. I think my biggest issue is not so much the symbol, as the idea that it somehow makes one real. I feel the same way about earning leather. One either does this or one does not. I see the term used as if it is something great and honorable but they lay no foundation. Or few do. That is why I choose carefully. I have never been a symbol oriented person. LOL heck.. I drove for 5 yrs before I ever got around to getting a license unlike all the other teens I knew. And leather jackets on bikes.. that does make sense. There is nothing more noticible than getting up from an accident wearing a a black shirt which has melted off your body to reveal the red push up bra beneath.. <g> Although, that did get us a lot of assistance, quickly! Never saw so many guys offering their truck beds to cart the bike back to the garage. Kyst quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst I wear leather because it looks good. I wear a collar only when playing and have never wanted to engage in a relationship with someone who thought that collars meant more than play. Kyst Fair enough. At the same time, can you also accept that to someone else, that collar might have a significant meaning? quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst My dominant gave me my leather jacket so I wouldnt burn another nylon shirt off if we spilled the bike again. Hon, that last part is just smart. Being someone who's butt has also hit the asphalt, it's just good sense to protect your body when you're on a bike.

Alumbrado -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/17/2008 6:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst ....I think my biggest issue is not so much the symbol, as the idea that it somehow makes one real. I feel the same way about earning leather. One either does this or one does not. I see the term used as if it is something great and honorable but they lay no foundation. Or few do. That is why I choose carefully. I have never been a symbol oriented person. The analogies drawn here between earning a Ph.D, MD, sworn status as a LEO, combat medal, and so forth miss the vital distinction that you have noticed right away... in these cases there is a codified standard, and a recognized authority deciding who has earned the honor. There may be many differences, but the similarities are stronger. In the case of earning leathers, there is no such authoritative body, and no codified standard... it is people creating something they think is cool, and it reflects whatever they want it to. A much better analogy would be martial arts rankings, where the same symbol ( say a black belt or equivalent) covers a wide range of standards, from much sustained and sincere effort, to running out and buying something at the nearest supply store, and every gradient in between. One approach might be to think that the 18 year old black belted 'Master' or the 20 something 'Old Guard' leather person are making people who have put more effort into their symbols, somehow lose something. Or one could take the approach that it is the effort that speaks for itself, with or without any symbols.

DominaSusan -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/17/2008 6:42:28 PM)
Calla Firestorm, I want to tell you how much your post touches me as I’ve only just starting out in the mentoring process. Before I ‘came out’ I had no idea I would identify with Old Guard and I certainly can’t find fault with those who don’t. I’m on the long, slow road of learning my techniques and earning my crop etc…To me it is like earning an advanced degree-the mentor will know when the student will be ready and if it takes 5 years-so be it. I’m willing to put in the time and I’m not going anywhere.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/17/2008 7:33:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado The analogies drawn here between earning a Ph.D, MD, sworn status as a LEO, combat medal, and so forth miss the vital distinction that you have noticed right away... in these cases there is a codified standard, and a recognized authority deciding who has earned the honor. There may be many differences, but the similarities are stronger. chuckles You had a codified standard for earning your PhD? Lucky stiff. I wish I'd been so lucky. Mine took 5 years of writing and TA-ing and didn't end until I was accepted to school for midwifery.

TexasMaam -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/17/2008 8:44:35 PM)
A dear friend and mentor of mine was just presented his Leathers in Dallas at a recent event. The Old School Thrill of 'earning your leathers' still lives on. Those in the lifestyle who will aspire to such will keep the flame alive. Those who think it's a bore will never know what they're missing. And by the way Mac, if you're reading: CONGRATUDAMNLATIONS!!! ; ) I'm thrilled for ya, Old Man! TexasMaam

Missokyst -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/17/2008 9:22:55 PM)
Congrats to that guy. And thank you to you as well. I think that is why I can't see it. I don't consider myself in the lifestyle. <g> I am however, rarely bored. Kyst quote: ORIGINAL: TexasMaam Those in the lifestyle

slaveboyforyou -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/17/2008 11:01:26 PM)
I'm cynical and I tend to ridicule people that consider themselves to be part of some magical, special subculture. I just don't understand an adult calling someone a "poser." It's just ridiculous and juvenile sounding to me. Whether you're "old guard", a biker, punk, goth, emo, surfer, skater, headbanger, hippie, beatnick, mod, greaser, rocker, hacker, jet, shark, butcher, baker, candlestick maker, blah, blah, blah.....please don't bore me with your pretentious bullshit about how you are "REAL." I'm not in junior high anymore. I am not impressed by people that give long, boring, self-involved, pretentious lectures on how they were (place your fad here) doing it before all the "trendies" starting doing it. I'm going to make the universal jerk-off hand gesture during your boring little speech, than I am going to ask you what grade you're in.

Dari -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/18/2008 5:43:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou I'm cynical and I tend to ridicule people that consider themselves to be part of some magical, special subculture. I just don't understand an adult calling someone a "poser." It's just ridiculous and juvenile sounding to me. Whether you're "old guard", a biker, punk, goth, emo, surfer, skater, headbanger, hippie, beatnick, mod, greaser, rocker, hacker, jet, shark, butcher, baker, candlestick maker, blah, blah, blah.....please don't bore me with your pretentious bullshit about how you are "REAL." I'm not in junior high anymore. I am not impressed by people that give long, boring, self-involved, pretentious lectures on how they were (place your fad here) doing it before all the "trendies" starting doing it. I'm going to make the universal jerk-off hand gesture during your boring little speech, than I am going to ask you what grade you're in. Heh. A poser would be someone like me, claiming I'd earned my leathers in the style of the Old Guard. It's simply not true. Wearing leather doesn't make me a poser - but pretending to be part of that culture, when I'm clearly not, does. And LP - here's an interesting conundrum - I don't wear my shoes in the house because it's a sign of disrespect. It's a piece of culture I've adopted from the East (my friend calls me a closet-Asian), and I feel it rather strongly. People who wear shoes in my house are not really welcome in my house. So now, bringing this back to the leathers - what do you think of those who adopt certain customs piecemeal? For instance, if within my particular group of friends, we decide that while anyone can buy whatever leather they want, having leather specifically given to you, with a meaning behind it, is a symbol of something earned, rather than just something bought. Are we then intruding into the leather community? Are we somehow corrupting it, or becoming "posers," or showing disrespect for a culture, by selecting a piece that we think is meaningful, and adopting its meaning for our own? Or is this simply a sign of the evolution of a culture in the standard ways?

MissEnchanted -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/18/2008 5:45:26 PM)
Thank you everybody! This has all been a very interesting read and I would enjoy seeing how others have earned their 'stripes' in the Leather community. I have heard tid-bits for all kinds of extended training and if I were 20 I might seek that out. Unless they asked me to start out as a sub. That wouldn't work for me...[;)] ME

HagiaSophia -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/18/2008 6:38:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 i think this is often a conflict between lifestylers, and people who just find leather sexy. i am not sure if it still happnes, but when i was growing up in London, young boxers resented people wearing the Lonsdale sportswear. I suspect most people copying a fashion staement are paying it a compliment, and not meaning any harm, although there are exceptions to this. You make an excellent point, which brought me to this point - what about those who enjoy leather as a fetish, but not power exchange? If your fetish is leather, must you go through the leather community (a community of primarily gay and lesbian kinksters who focus on power exchange)? I think not. What if the leather fetishist is unaware of leather communities, what if there aren't any where she or he lives? Mistress Sophia

Wickad -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/18/2008 7:46:48 PM)
(fast reply) Greetings, I consider myself heavily influenced by both the Victorian and Leather cultures. I have not earned 'my leathers' and I don't know if I am interested in going on that journey, but if I decide that I want to, I have access to people who would be willing help me along. I would wear leather if I could afford to buy it or make it. That being said, I don't think I would ever wear chaps, vest, or a Master's cap. To me those are earned leather items and I haven't put in the work at this point. I don't mind others wearing leather but I never assume that the leather they wear is earned until I get to know them a bit better. If someone does claim to have 'earned his/her leathers' then I tend to quiz them and find out if they are lying or not. Many people do lie about this in order to gain prestige in local circles. As to a collar??? I tend to assume most folks wearing a collar are doing it for fashion purposes unless the collar has a lock on it and/or it is a 'dog collar' style. Folks wearing these types of collars I watch more closely to see how they act and if they defer to anyone. If they do, then I direct my inquires to the person deferred to, just to be on the safe side. On a totally side note and I don't mean to hijack this thread, but ... who wears their shoes in the house? I am Canadian and have never met anyone up here who would think it was good manners to wear their shoes indoors. Even at large formal gatherings there is always a heap of shoes just inside the door. If someone feels that shoes 'make the outfit' then they bring along a clean pair to wear exclusively indoors. Seriously, are their folks who wear their shoes in the house? Wickad

LadyPact -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/19/2008 5:46:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dari And LP - here's an interesting conundrum - I don't wear my shoes in the house because it's a sign of disrespect. It's a piece of culture I've adopted from the East (my friend calls me a closet-Asian), and I feel it rather strongly. People who wear shoes in my house are not really welcome in my house. So now, bringing this back to the leathers - what do you think of those who adopt certain customs piecemeal? For instance, if within my particular group of friends, we decide that while anyone can buy whatever leather they want, having leather specifically given to you, with a meaning behind it, is a symbol of something earned, rather than just something bought. Are we then intruding into the leather community? Are we somehow corrupting it, or becoming "posers," or showing disrespect for a culture, by selecting a piece that we think is meaningful, and adopting its meaning for our own? Or is this simply a sign of the evolution of a culture in the standard ways? It's an interesting question, Dari. Thank you for asking it. I don't think I could offer an opinion, other than My own, which makes the answer difficult. I couldn't possibly say how the majority of people would feel about it. As for Myself, I do believe traditions grow and change. I would say that I have to believe it, because if I didn't, I couldn't have ever received My Cover. I'm certainly not a gay male, and I most definitely didn't start 'from the bottom'. The tradition has evolved from where it started to today. Perhaps, in the next 50 years, it will continue to evolve. I would say, however, that if it was a practice that you would want to start (the giving of leather) that you might be interested what certain pieces mean to others. If you're concerned about what might be seen as an intrusion to a culture (any culture, for that matter) why not ask someone who has a similar piece, and have them tell you what it means to them, and where it came from? Much like being a "closet Asian", you got that idea of the shoes in the house as being disrespectful. Well, you got that idea from somewhere, right? From that genesis, it became yours. Perhaps you'll pass it on someday, and it will belong to someone else. I would never by opposed to My old standby of take what you need and leave the rest. Seeking out what a tradition means to someone is never a bad thing. It's even possible that people will want to learn more, just because of this thread.

LadyIce -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/19/2008 8:03:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou I'm cynical and I tend to ridicule people that consider themselves to be part of some magical, special subculture. I just don't understand an adult calling someone a "poser." It's just ridiculous and juvenile sounding to me. Whether you're "old guard", a biker, punk, goth, emo, surfer, skater, headbanger, hippie, beatnick, mod, greaser, rocker, hacker, jet, shark, butcher, baker, candlestick maker, blah, blah, blah.....please don't bore me with your pretentious bullshit about how you are "REAL." I'm not in junior high anymore. I am not impressed by people that give long, boring, self-involved, pretentious lectures on how they were (place your fad here) doing it before all the "trendies" starting doing it. I'm going to make the universal jerk-off hand gesture during your boring little speech, than I am going to ask you what grade you're in. This post is too funny, and really states how much "labels" in general mean to a few of us. I tend to respect and treat most people based on how they respect and treat me and others, period. The main "label" that normally concerns me is "trustworthy and honorable human being". Thank you for expressing how I feel. I do find groups, factions and labels interesting, but beyond "interesting" these labels don't mean much to me.

Steponme73 -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/19/2008 8:05:22 AM)
Wow!!! Thank you Lady Pact for starting this! I have been around for years...not in the D/s public scene but had no idea about the leathers. Call me naive, call me stupid, but I have learned alot. I think part of the problem today is, and I hate to say this because it is so common, the internet and the availablity of everything. You can go on line and buy whatever you want. You are right and a right to be proud of your leathers. You have earned them. It is akin to the soldier. I served in Viet Nam and was in infantry. I received a Combat Infantry Badge...that to me is very important. I also received several Purple Hearts...those are important to me. When I see some kid wearing them he has no idea what they mean or what they mean to other people. For those of us who have "earned" them they are priceless. So congratulations to you and again thank you for the post. This has been most informative.

undergroundsea -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/19/2008 11:29:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HagiaSophia what about those who enjoy leather as a fetish, but not power exchange? If your fetish is leather, must you go through the leather community (a community of primarily gay and lesbian kinksters who focus on power exchange)? I think not. What if the leather fetishist is unaware of leather communities, what if there aren't any where she or he lives? I consider the leather culture to be one way to practice BDSM. I consider myself to be lifestyle BDSM, not leather. I attend leather events and have learned about the leather culture through attending these events. I enjoy leather events because they are BDSM events, and have friends there who strongly associate with that culture. I do not, however, practice the traditions and customs. No one is required to go about BDSM through the leather route. I think the benefit of this thread for those who do not identify with leather is to expand knowledge. There are some people who identify as the fetish crowd. They enjoy the sensuality of fetish clothing (leather, latex, PVXC, metal) but do not necessarily identify with BDSM and power exchange. There are some events that focus more on fashion and socialization than on BDSM or play. Generally, BDSM elements show up at these events because there is an overlap between those who like fashion and those who like BDSM. Cheers, Sea

undergroundsea -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/19/2008 12:04:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I don't ask that the person who bought theirs hold the same meaning to it as I do. I just don't, figuratively, want them to trod through the living room wearing sneakers.[:)] Hello Lady Pact, I am happy to have contributed to your thread. I am wondering if you would elaborate what in your opinion feels disrespectful to those in the leather culture--in other words, what does wearing sneakers specifically mean, and what is considered the leather home? I often wear leather pants, boots, cuffs, and belts at BDSM events, including leather events. My leather is purchased and I do not feel I am being disrespectful when I wear these items. I have a vest but I do not wear it at leather events since I see a vest to be more symbolic of the leather culture. A cover does not apply to my role but if it did, I would not wear it. The other items I mention I see to be general enough in the BDSM culture. Also, I have worn the vest at general BDSM events. Thus, in my opinion, the sneakers are the more symbolic items (vest, cover, and, perhaps, collar) in the leather culture. And I consider the leather home to be an event that is a leather event (an event arranged by a leather organization, or at a leather bar, or a private event hosted by a leather family). I would appreciate to hear the perspective about this philosophy from someone in the leather culture. Cheers, Sea

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/19/2008 12:39:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wickad (fast reply) On a totally side note and I don't mean to hijack this thread, but ... who wears their shoes in the house? I am Canadian and have never met anyone up here who would think it was good manners to wear their shoes indoors. Even at large formal gatherings there is always a heap of shoes just inside the door. If someone feels that shoes 'make the outfit' then they bring along a clean pair to wear exclusively indoors. Seriously, are their folks who wear their shoes in the house? Wickad Not to contribute to your unmeant hijack, but I remember the pile of shoes outside the door as well (I grew up on the SE edge of Lake Ontario in Upstate NY). I think, for us, it has something to do with not dragging all that wet, sloppy snow into the house. Since I've been below the Mason-Dixon line (for going on 21 years now), everyone here wears their shoes in the house (except me... I still take mine off the moment I get to the doormat unless it's my "Domina Boots"... I need help getting in and out of those, so I plop on the bed and let someone else fight with all the buckles and laces!)

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