RE: I couldn't help Myself (Full Version)

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CallaFirestormBW -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/19/2008 12:47:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dari


And LP - here's an interesting conundrum - I don't wear my shoes in the house because it's a sign of disrespect.  It's a piece of culture I've adopted from the East (my friend calls me a closet-Asian), and I feel it rather strongly.  People who wear shoes in my house are not really welcome in my house.  So now, bringing this back to the leathers - what do you think of those who adopt certain customs piecemeal?  For instance, if within my particular group of friends, we decide that while anyone can buy whatever leather they want, having leather specifically given to you, with a meaning behind it, is a symbol of something earned, rather than just something bought.  Are we then intruding into the leather community?  Are we somehow corrupting it, or becoming "posers," or showing disrespect for a culture, by selecting a piece that we think is meaningful, and adopting its meaning for our own?

Or is this simply a sign of the evolution of a culture in the standard ways?



I can only answer this question from the perspective of an 'outsider'. Even though I went through the 7 hells (yes, I still wear the stripes!) to get my crop, our household isn't considered a "leather" household. That being said, a great deal of what we do is predicated on the historical styles of the leather community. My former owner -- the patriarch of the household at the time -- was initiated through the traditional leather community, but what he wanted for his own house was something more organic -- so he embraced a lot of his own experiences, adopted some others that suited him, talked to the other members of the household about things that held importance for them, and then, when he claimed me, he added a spiritual aspect that followed me from the seminary that I studied and then taught at. We embrace aspects of many cultures, and yet, we don't really -belong- to any of them. All I can say when someone challenges our right to use the rituals and tokens that we've embraced is to tell them that everything we do, we do with the utmost respect, both for its origins and for its place in our current household structure. I think that sometimes, that is the best we can hope for in a world where "tradition" is losing its hold on our culture.

Calla Firestorm Bladewing



LadyPact -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/19/2008 1:30:48 PM)

Ok, this part first.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steponme73

Wow!!!  Thank you Lady Pact for starting this!  I have been around for years...not in the D/s public scene but had no idea about the leathers.  Call me naive, call me stupid, but I have learned alot.

I think part of the problem today is, and I hate to say this because it is so common, the internet and the availablity of everything.  You can go on line and buy whatever you want.  You are right and a right to be proud of your leathers.  You have earned them.  It is akin to the soldier.  I served in Viet Nam and was in infantry.  I received a Combat Infantry Badge...that to me is very important.  I also received several Purple Hearts...those are important to me.  When I see some kid wearing them he has no idea what they mean or what they mean to other people. 
For those of us who have "earned" them they are priceless.

So congratulations to you and again thank you for the post.  This has been most informative.

I'd like to say that you are quite welcome.  I'm glad people have found the topic interesting.  I've also been really pleased that, for the most part, people have been very courteous about the topic, even if it doesn't interest them personally.  It is in no way stupid to say that you've never been exposed to these things before.  It's just a chance you haven't had yet.

Also, I'd personally like to thank you for your service to your country.  I have no doubt whatsoever that you most certainly earned every badge and award that was ever on your uniform.  Those same symbols could never possibly mean the same to someone who purchased them.  I am sorry for that.

Still, while that isn't (the purchasing of such things) the best use of the internet, it's the net's very existence that works in positive ways, too.  It's that availability of information that also exists, that makes these very discussions possible.  I tend to think people do learn from these things, even just on places like Collar Me.   I would never consider Myself the best authority or resource on the subject of leather, but there really is a lot of information that a person can find.  When you think about it, that thing I said above about the chance you haven't had yet, is now right at your fingertips.

Thank you again, for both your interest in the topic, and for your military service.



LadyPact -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/19/2008 2:35:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
Hello Lady Pact,

I am happy to have contributed to your thread. I am wondering if you would elaborate what in your opinion feels disrespectful to those in the leather culture--in other words, what does wearing sneakers specifically mean, and what is considered the leather home?

I often wear leather pants, boots, cuffs, and belts at BDSM events, including leather events. My leather is purchased and I do not feel I am being disrespectful when I wear these items. I have a vest but I do not wear it at leather events since I see a vest to be more symbolic of the leather culture. A cover does not apply to my role but if it did, I would not wear it. The other items I mention I see to be general enough in the BDSM culture. Also, I have worn the vest at general BDSM events. Thus, in my opinion, the sneakers are the more symbolic items (vest, cover, and, perhaps, collar) in the leather culture. And I consider the leather home to be an event that is a leather event (an event arranged by a leather organization, or at a leather bar, or a private event hosted by a leather family). I would appreciate to hear the perspective about this philosophy from someone in the leather culture.

Cheers,

Sea



Hello sea,

Before I answer your specific questions, I wanted to tell you a side note.  I was actually thinking of you last month when I attended SELF.  Believe it or not, there was something at the vendor's market that I would have loved to have bought you as a gift.  It was a very nice print of..........  Lynda Carter, as Wonder Woman!  I've been meaning to tell you that silly thing for a while now.

Back on track.  You really answered your own question.   Even people at leather events don't claim to have earned every piece of leather they own.  That could be very difficult, especially when it comes to items such as corsets and skirts.  (That part was supposed to be funny.)   Certain items do have  meanings attributed to them, as you recognized.  It's as simple to Me as understanding and accepting that different items mean different things to different people.

Actually, you'd be more than welcome to wear the leather you bought in My home.  Like was brought up in the thread earlier, there's more than one reason to wear it.  Bikers wear leather to protect themselves.  Fetishists wear leather because it drives their fetish.  Some people wear leather at BDSM events because of wanting to be dressed similar to those around them.   I'm good with all of those.  Where I do run into a problem is when someone purchases an item that might have meaning, and makes the attempt to convince themselves or anyone else that it's the same as earning it.  To Me, I'm afraid it isn't.



leadership527 -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/19/2008 3:30:15 PM)

I don't even consider myself a part of the BDSM scene much less and subscene of it.  I try to be reasonably respectful of anyone's traditions that I'm around... but I also expect others to meet me half way.  Leathers, collars, etc. all mean little to nothing to me.  As has been noted, anyone can put on some symbol of something.  What does that mean?  Even "earned leathers" are suspect to anyone but the participants involved.  In a different context, when I hire employees, yes I look for a college degree, but that's only to handle the first weeding out becasue we get plenty of applicants with great degrees.  But honestly, other than the fact that they have checked the little box on the form, I don't much care about that.  I'm much more interested in the person themself... how they present themself... how articulate they are... how well they respond to pressure situations, etc. 

Now, to the other side, it's easy to see how some token, given to me by a person who's judgemetn I respect, indicating that I was "good" at whatever, would carry weight with me and be an important symbol.  I just wouldn't assume that anyone else in the whole world would know what that token meant or credit it with any significance whatsoever.  I could give my wife a certificate right now that said, "You're a great wife".  And honestly, she's earned it.  But I somehow doubt that that certificate would mean much to prospective husbands if I were to die.

*makes mental note to make his girl a nice certificate*



LadyPact -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/20/2008 2:06:56 PM)

quote:


Original leadership527:
Now, to the other side, it's easy to see how some token, given to me by a person who's judgemetn I respect, indicating that I was "good" at whatever, would carry weight with me and be an important symbol.  I just wouldn't assume that anyone else in the whole world would know what that token meant or credit it with any significance whatsoever.

Grey area here.  Are you saying you've never given your wife a token or a symbol that others recognize?  I'll bet you have.  I'll even go so far as to say that, in our society, most people recognize it, and can spot it immediately as a symbol particularly worn as an outward showing of her status as a married woman.

I'm not saying that the leather culture is as vast as the society that we live in, but if I'm at a leather event, wearing My cover, the majority of people in attendance, know what it means.





Missokyst -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/20/2008 3:46:04 PM)

I think we have all gotten some symbol in our lifetime.  I wore a cross when I was going steady with a surfer, I wore a bracelet when I was dating a doctor, I wore a wedding ring for 7 yrs before I flushed it down the drain. 
But I think what he is saying that not everyone is going to know what some symbols mean.  When I see a collar it is either fashion (I worked retail), it is a sign that someone is collared, or it is there to attach chains or rope to.  It has different meanings to different people.
Likewise leather.  I wore a jacket because my boyfriend who also happened to be my dominant wanted to keep me safe when riding the motorcycle. 
Someone else might wear a jacket for warmth, fashion, or because it was bestowed on them in some ceremony.
It has different meanings and how does one tell when it is this, or that?  Unless you are wearing a tag or openly proclaim, I earned this!  Then how would people tell?
Also, since there are so many different ways to earn such things, and no one criteria that says if you do this, you will get that, then the meaning to you is different.
I once ran a flag girl group.  We would go up and down the state in competitions.  Sometimes we won, sometimes we lost.  But I can tell you winning means a lot more when it is one of those national competitions, vs the local county.  Just as a degree from podunk jr college is not going to hold the same weight as getting an associates from Harvard.
Sure it is nice to know that you have earned something.  But with so many proclaiming they are grand master pobah so and so, unless someone knows your backgroud personally, for most people it is just another claim.
I value my education more than the degrees.  I would have gone to school regardless of whether or not I got that sheepskin.
Take pride in your background.  But don't count on the value being treasured by anyone but you and yours.
That was the hardest lesson I ever learned.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
can spot it immediately as a symbol particularly worn as an outward showing of her status as a married woman.

I'm not saying that the leather culture is as vast as the society that we live in, but if I'm at a leather event, wearing My cover, the majority of people in attendance, know what it means.






LaTigresse -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/21/2008 4:25:17 PM)

Lady Pact whom I have come to like and respect through words here, thank you for creating this thread. As I've read through it I have found it very interesting.

It has not been all that long ago that I even learned what "leather" meant in this context. Only after following some links in several threads that steered me to some very educational sites. The old leather, gay men's, subculture. I remember reading about little museums almost, dedicating to preserving their history and growth. It is fascinating.

Through all of my reading, I've actually come to see Leather, as a subculture of BDSM, D/s, M/s. Trust me, I don't say that to belittle it or those that honour it, it is only that historically, it is a rather new culture. Obviously BDSM, D/s, and M/s, has been around many many more years in the history of man/womankind than the Leather culture.

When I first was drawn into learning about all of the above I was at first fascinated by the formality and veneer of honour and all that I falsely thought must go with it. Then, my bubble was popped and I realized that the people that live and participate are just like people everywhere. Some good, some bad, some honourable and moral, many not, some wise and many less so. And, like in all organizations that would lead us to believe that honour, wisdom, etc etc etc.......is of great value, you will have leaders within those organizations that fall far short of being great leaders and exemplifying those values they proclaim to hold of value. And, people being people, you will always find the petty behaviour you find within any organization.

All of that being said, I do believe there is great value for those types of organizations and groups, and the people that have the patience and fortitude to do their best to lead them. I believe that the Leather defined organizations have value, especially to people that feel drawn to belong, to find acceptance of their unique qualities that the whole as a whole struggles to accept. Yet, to me, it is little different than any other organized subculture. Needed by some, honoured by some, very valuable to some, and sadly, mocked by many.

I am always encouraged that many that identify with the leather subculture are usually very accepting of other subcultures. Be they primarily kink oriented, more M/s oriented, or a unique combination of their own design. I've learned that there is probably no subculture that I have researched that I can jump full throttle into with both feet and really want to become a part of. I love leather, the scent and feel, always have even as a small child (the shoe store was pure heaven for me since the beginning of my memories) yet I cannot find any value in the symbolism in it.........for me. Much like the bikers and their colours, it is empty and not something I could honour or give enough value to to honour and value the people that do as I should. So I wisely choose to avoid any attempt to join in. It would be an empty gesture at best and discourteous to those that it is important to. Yet I will still wear leather, because to me it is simply a delicious fabric.

I think there are many like me, that see how important symbolism is to others. We respect some of the people that hold their symbols in high esteem and we do not want to be disrespectful of them or what is so important to them, yet we cannot make it our own. We simply have our own unique path.



LadyPact -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/21/2008 8:36:27 PM)

LaT, first off, I'm really glad you liked it.  What started off as something of a rant, turned into something rather positive, and that always makes for threads to be more interesting.  I was happy to see so many people interested in the subject, especially those like yourself.  I do have to say, the respect is mutual.

I'm also very encouraged that several people, yourself included, have done their own research as to what the subculture is.  I mean, let's face it.  Leather is obviously a new kid on the block when compared, for example, to S/m.  After all, what is a few decades when compared to thousands of years?  I don't find that belittling at all.  I would have to find it more like historical fact.

I absolutely agree with you that, as with any other group of people, you will find the good and the bad amongst those who identify as leather.  There are the honorable and those who are not so much.  I tend to think that's just the way of life.  There isn't any one group that I could think of to single out where every member who considers themselves to be a part of that group is a positive influence to everyone. That's a lot to expect of a person, much less a group.  Heck, I can't even expect that out of Myself. 

Even when folks are interested in learning about other subcultures, I don't think it would be realistic for everyone to adopt them.  Not everything is going to fit everybody else.  Personally, I see that as a good thing, too, because other people have ways of life that wouldn't fit Me.  I have what works for Me, just like you have what works for you.  In the end, we're both happy with that.

Just like I told undergroundsea.  The fact that you have a different way, doesn't mean you wouldn't be welcome.  Most of the leather people that I know are more than happy to have new folks come along, ask questions, and attend events.  Even if it isn't for you, there's a chance that you might enjoy some good company, and learn about different things, just like it gives us an opportunity to learn about you.  Not to mention, a smart, funny, hot chick in leather?  That's probably someone I'd want to get to know.   [:D]





undergroundsea -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/23/2008 7:31:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Believe it or not, there was something at the vendor's market that I would have loved to have bought you as a gift.

 
;-)

Thank you for thinking of me :)
 
quote:

 Where I do run into a problem is when someone purchases an item that might have meaning, and makes the attempt to convince themselves or anyone else that it's the same as earning it. 

Sure, that's a reasonable position. Thanks for clarifying.

Cheers,

Sea



Madame4a -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/23/2008 1:00:40 PM)

I don't have time to read the whole thread.. but I don't think our time has passed... I'm going to suggest that continuing with tradition is not for everyone and that's fine.

I like to think I do my best to keep it going by giving people earned leather.  I also ASK, anytime I judge a contest, "did you earn any of that leather?"  ... let someone else ask me what that means...



MsMillgrove -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/23/2008 8:15:21 PM)

As the thread ends, I too want to say it was very informative.  Where I live, the word "leather" is added to phrases like "bdsm, leather and kink communities". It appears that the use of "leather" in that context is referring to primarily gay and lesbian groups.
I find it a bit confusing but I think the idea is to be all-inclusive which is a good thing.  We also have Leather Man and Leather Woman of the Year titles which also don't mean the same thing in each geographic location. 

Regarding leather or collars, it appears that asking and not assuming is the only way to know what the wearer has in mind.

I take collars very seriously, perhaps as seriously as you do earned leathers, so it's been a challenge and learning experience for me to realize that I have to be clear when talking with a potential sub.. what Exactly do we mean when we speak together about a collar.  Part of me grieves that if I give a beautiful pale blue hand-stiched leather collar to a sub who is willing to accept it... I am likely to not see that collar again if anything goes awry in that consideration period. It means so much to me to honor that time period with a special symbol, but it also is a risk because the new sub may not treasure it as I do, or understand that the collar belongs to me.  I guess it's debated here frequently---should you offer with open hand and heart--or be cynical and self-protective.

All I care to earn is respect and trust but I understand how important it would be to someone who has gone through a quest, a battle etc.  to be given acknowledgement for their bravery and achievement.. and how hard to watch those who have no idea--turn those symbols into a fashion statement.  Lot of people were extremely upset when the US flag was first used in "fashion".  Seem like many valuable symbols make their way into fashion world and appear to be trivialized.  Nothing new though.. has gone on throughout history of fashion...



Boondoggle -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/24/2008 4:06:04 PM)

There are a couple kink groups here who actively support/endorse the practice of 'earning your leathers' (the Knights of Leather and the Atons, for what it's worth), but aside from their vests, wearing leather has little meaning in this community. Frankly, I think this is a good way to approach the topic.



undergroundsea -> RE: I couldn't help Myself (7/24/2008 5:44:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMillgrove
It appears that the use of "leather" in that context is referring to primarily gay and lesbian groups.
I find it a bit confusing but I think the idea is to be all-inclusive which is a good thing. 


The leather culture originated in gay men's clubs, which influences its demographics. From leather events I have encountered, a high percentage or even a majority of participants are gay. Still, the leather culture is all-inclusive with respect to sexual orientation.

How diverse a leather group is, and how well do the homosexual and heterosexual BDSM communities mix varies from city to city and event to event. I am straight and my style to dress leans more towards fetish and goth than leather. Still, I have never felt unwelcome at leather events I have attended.

Cheers,

Sea



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