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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/19/2008 1:41:14 PM   
Guilty1974


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From: Den Haag
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator]

However, pretty much ANY job that requires any kind of background check, security clearance, restricted area badging, bonding, or the like in the USA requires a drivers license.  


How silly. If we require a background check for security clearance, we ask the National Intelligence Agency to run one. I also guess that if a government agency here would start requiring drivers licenses for jobs where that doesn't make sense, people would file discrimination charges and would be likely to win.

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/19/2008 3:13:16 PM   
shadowcd


Posts: 88
Joined: 6/23/2008
Status: offline 		government photo ID (aquired from the motor vehichal department) is acceptable substitute for a drivers license for any form of security check in most of the world.   I don't know about america but that's how it works in Canada and most of Europe.

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/19/2008 3:31:24 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		that's how it works here as well shadowcd :)

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/19/2008 7:36:33 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		But in the private sector, or in many public sectors, am employer can require pretty much whatever he or she wants - so long as it doesnt discriminate on the basis of the protected classes which are set forth by law.... Non-driver is not one of those protected classes. Therefore, I choose to require a valid drivers license as do many, many, many other employers far larger than myself.... Much like a credit report (which I also require) a drivers license report tells me a great deal about an applicant. Is this person a risk taker? Are they careless? Are they irresponsible? Are they tardy? Are they drunks? Seeing that a person has a dozen speeding tickets on weekdays between 8:30 and 9:15 am tells me they have piss poor planning and dont leave for work on time... Seeing that a person has had three DUI's tells me they have a drinking problem... Seeing that a person has had 4 accidents in the past year means they sure as shit aint being told to hop into a clients multimillion dollar LearJet, that I can have them go pick up a training client at the airport, and I cant even give them the keys to a company car and send them to go get me a cup of coffee and a kolache. 

Britt is an elementary school teacher - BUT a one line addition to her job description enables the school district to require her to have a valid drivers license "and transport small groups of students, professional faculty, or staff in a district provided van for the purposes of field trips, extracurricular activities, or other functions as the district may mandate." If she does not have a valid drivers license, she does not fulfill the requirements of the position and can not meet the duties set forth in the job description for "Classroom Teacher - Elementary Grades". I have a similar requirement in all of my job descriptions, as do many others. You never know when you may need to send the secretary to OfficeMax, or the aircraft mechanic to go get a 9/16" socket cause one just broke, or even when the flunkie kid who sweeps up and is the gofer needs to get me a torta and gas for the weedeater...

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/19/2008 8:03:36 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Hermione, "Baptist" is a wide umbrella term.  Like a lot of protestants, Baptists have a lot of different sects.  It why you see churches named; 1st Baptist, 2nd Baptist, Baptist Church of the Holy Ghost Down by the River, etc, etc.  It's true that some sects frown on dancing and drinking.  Hell, I know of a Baptist church here in town that threatened to expel a member because he drove a delivery truck for a beer distributor. 

However most of them only preach moderation when it comes to any "worldly" activity.  I told you earlier that I have a friend that is Pentecostal.  Well there are a lot of different sects of Pentecostalism.  Some completely forbid their female parishoners from wearing pants and cutting their hair.  They forbid male parishoners from wearing shorts.  Some sects even forbid parishoners from owning television sets.  But my friend's church is fairly loose on doctrine.  They aren't as draconian in their approach. 




Slaveboy, Baptists are not "Protestants."
The Baptist Movement existed before the Catholic Church and was never a part of the Catholic Church so how could they be a part of the Protestant Reformation?

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/19/2008 9:14:22 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		that may be so, domaviator, but many employers do NOT require a valid drivers' license unless the job requires driving. :) just because you do does not mean every employer does.

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/19/2008 11:04:12 PM   
ArtCatDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Slaveboy, Baptists are not "Protestants."
The Baptist Movement existed before the Catholic Church and was never a part of the Catholic Church so how could they be a part of the Protestant Reformation?


Are you actually serious?

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/19/2008 11:21:22 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		I wouldn't say there's something wrong with a Master or person who is rich enough to pay someone to drive them around.

Isn't it true that Rock Legend STING never drives?

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/19/2008 11:36:21 PM   
Silkendream


Posts: 65
Joined: 10/29/2007
Status: offline 		Margaret Thatcher said "If you're still taking the bus when you're thirty, you're a failure," and i must admit, the sight of an adult man not being able to drive does make him seem less masculine and powerful and in control.  Unless of course he has a medical condition - only exception i can think of.

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/20/2008 5:38:57 AM   
Guilty1974


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From: Den Haag
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

But in the private sector, or in many public sectors, am employer can require pretty much whatever he or she wants - so long as it doesnt discriminate on the basis of the protected classes which are set forth by law.... Non-driver is not one of those protected classes.


I don't think you're an expert in Dutch law, but I assume that might be true in the US. As I said, if one were to make demands that would be really pointless for the job, I think down here you might just have a case.

quote:


Therefore, I choose to require a valid drivers license as do many, many, many other employers far larger than myself.... Much like a credit report (which I also require) a drivers license report tells me a great deal about an applicant. Is this person a risk taker? Are they careless? Are they irresponsible? Are they tardy? Are they drunks? Seeing that a person has a dozen speeding tickets on weekdays between 8:30 and 9:15 am tells me they have piss poor planning and dont leave for work on time... Seeing that a person has had three DUI's tells me they have a drinking problem... Seeing that a person has had 4 accidents in the past year means they sure as shit aint being told to hop into a clients multimillion dollar LearJet, that I can have them go pick up a training client at the airport, and I cant even give them the keys to a company car and send them to go get me a cup of coffee and a kolache. 


The information here would only be if someone has a valid license or no. No way an employer down here could get his hands on credit reports, reports on traffic tickets, or even prior convictions. The same for medical records. Only a few jobs are allowed to require a "proof of conduct", which you can't get with serious convictions in the last five years or so that are relevant to the position (so a teacher might not get it if he has a childporn conviction, or for a government agency fraud might not help). And, of course, some government positions may require security clearance by the intelligence agency.


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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/20/2008 6:02:44 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		To no one in particular,Some folks that are borned and raised in big city's never get a drivers liscense,most don't even own a car..Some may have like someone stated a medical problems,There are times that I just want to ride and relax and let Diane drive,I see nothing wrong with a DOM that won't drive or wishes for his subs to drive,As always just the views of this ol' master..

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/20/2008 6:18:38 AM   
DomAviator


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Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

I don't think you're an expert in Dutch law, but I assume that might be true in the US. As I said, if one were to make demands that would be really pointless for the job, I think down here you might just have a case.

The information here would only be if someone has a valid license or no. No way an employer down here could get his hands on credit reports, reports on traffic tickets, or even prior convictions. The same for medical records. Only a few jobs are allowed to require a "proof of conduct", which you can't get with serious convictions in the last five years or so that are relevant to the position (so a teacher might not get it if he has a childporn conviction, or for a government agency fraud might not help). And, of course, some government positions may require security clearance by the intelligence agency.




No, my post pertained entirely to the United States. I have no idea about what is permissible in the netherlands or its posessions. In the USA there is little that could be considered "pointless for the job" and it is fairly common for employers to assign "other such duties as may be required". Credit reports are very easily obtained in the USA and are used by many employers as part of the prehire process. They are also almost invariably used by landlords before you are able to rent. Ditto for criminal history / background hecks.

I do understand that the information I mentioned would only be available if the person has a valid license. If they do not, they are not qualified to apply as they will be unable to fulfill the duties set forth in the job description. In case of physical disability that precludes you from having a drivers license you are probably physically disqualified for the position as well. For example the teaching job I mentioned - our school district wisely chooses not to allow those who are blind or prone to seizures / loss of consciousness to supervise a class. Some my feel this is discriminatory but I would rather not have a group of kindergarteners having to send someone to the nurses office because miss so and so is flopping around on the floor, foaming at the mouth and biting her tongue. The teachers are also required to coach an extracurricular activity - which can be anything from the robotics club to cheerleading to t-ball and as such they have to be physically qualified for that. Again not all districts do this, but some do as it enables them to offer a higher salary in that all professional faculty get their base pay, plus the extra for the coach position they fill.  

It is extremely hard to be denied a drivers license for physical reasons in the USA. You may need special accomadations or will have restrictions placed on it, but it is nearly impossible for anyone capable of actually functioning in the workforce to be medically disqualified for a drivers license. Its not like you need an FAA First Class Medical certificate to drive a car LOL.  Admittedly not everyone requires it, but a great many do - particularly in positions worth having.

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/20/2008 6:44:04 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		FR
 
My car accidents poll shows that the safest drivers are natural slaves, followed by true subs and by switches. Never have a dom(me) for a driver for those have the most risk of being in a car accident. Only one in fifteen car driving dom(me)s have never had a car accident.

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/20/2008 6:55:25 AM   
DomAviator


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Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

FR
 
My car accidents poll shows that the safest drivers are natural slaves, followed by true subs and by switches. Never have a dom(me) for a driver for those have the most risk of being in a car accident. Only one in fifteen car driving dom(me)s have never had a car accident.


I realize youre kidding but I would buy that... In my younger days I have had several accidents, including some it is amazing that I walked away from! (I rolled a mustang over in Nevada at I dont even know how fast, the car did 11 rolls per the highway patrol.) I think Dom(mes) are naturally more agressive and more prone to take risks.... Military pilots are generally "alpha males" and looking back on it we couldnt drive for shit! We thought we were immortal.

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/20/2008 6:56:32 AM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
I do understand that the information I mentioned would only be available if the person has a valid license. If they do not, they are not qualified to apply as they will be unable to fulfill the duties set forth in the job description.


That might be true for your job, but for mine? I actually know one very good policy advisor, for instance, who's completely blind. Now I do suppose that would be a problem getting a license, even in the US...

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/20/2008 6:59:36 AM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
I realize youre kidding but I would buy that... In my younger days I have had several accidents, including some it is amazing that I walked away from! (I rolled a mustang over in Nevada at I dont even know how fast, the car did 11 rolls per the highway patrol.) I think Dom(mes) are naturally more agressive and more prone to take risks.... Military pilots are generally "alpha males" and looking back on it we couldnt drive for shit! We thought we were immortal.


And you were just arguing that you require a drvivers license to actually prove they're decent, mature and responsible people?

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/20/2008 7:19:43 AM   
DomAviator


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Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

And you were just arguing that you require a drvivers license to actually prove they're decent, mature and responsible people?



Yes. Notice I said "In my younger days" and "we thought we were immortal"???As a 40 year old aviation businessman I no longer drive like I did when I was a hard drinking fast living 26 year old unbreakable immortal fighter pilot.... I no longer fly like it either, as it would cause certificate action and unhappy clients to make 6 g turns or to to fly at 500 kts 100 feet above the ground three feet away from traffic. My driving record is completly clean now....

As for the "blind man" question... No obviously a blind person can not get a drivers license. They also can not get a job with my company... Technically that is discrimination, and the situation hasnt arisen, but I would find an out so as not to hire the person. It would require too many accomodations. Im not getting a braile version of my policy manuals, and Im not paying someone else to read them to him. I dont know what a "policy advisor" does exactly but I would assume it requires substantial reading and watching. I know there is no job function that a blind person could perform at my business so I wouldnt hire one. The dutch govt is more willing to make accomatations than I am and thats great for them and their blind folks.... I have to turn a profit to maintain my lifestyle.

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/20/2008 7:34:41 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Slaveboy, Baptists are not "Protestants."
The Baptist Movement existed before the Catholic Church and was never a part of the Catholic Church so how could they be a part of the Protestant Reformation?


Are you actually serious?



ArtCatDom, yes, "Baptist" is a seperate religion.
"Protestant" means a "declaration" against the Pope, "one who protests."
Martin Luther originated that declaration and "Lutherins", Methodists, Anglicans, Episcopals, Calvinists and Presbytarians also "declared" they were against rule by the Pope.
But, they were all Catholics previously and had belonged to the Catholic Church.
Baptists were never Catholics and therefor had no reason to "protest" against the Pope.
They never "protested" or "declared" and never took part in the protestant reformation.
Also, they are not "offshoots" from any of the above groups and existed long before those groups and the Catholic Church.
If you read about the Protestant Reformation it says nothing about Baptists because they were never involved in it being a "stand alone religion" which already existed.
I once mistakenly called a Baptist Minister a "Protestant" and he said; "Oh, we're not Protestant we're Baptists.
Read the Baptist "perpetuity."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 7/20/2008 8:03:52 AM >

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/20/2008 8:11:04 AM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviatorYes. Notice I said "In my younger days" and "we thought we were immortal"???


So you wouldn't hire young people with a license 'cause it still doesn't prove anything?

quote:


As for the "blind man" question... No obviously a blind person can not get a drivers license. They also can not get a job with my company... Technically that is discrimination, and the situation hasnt arisen, but I would find an out so as not to hire the person. It would require too many accomodations. Im not getting a braile version of my policy manuals, and Im not paying someone else to read them to him. I dont know what a "policy advisor" does exactly but I would assume it requires substantial reading and watching.


Ah, yes, it requires reading (nowadays mostly electronic, so that can be convverted to audio easily), typing reports (no problem, she brings a laptop to meetings), meeting and negatioting with other departments and organisations. The latter requires fysical presence, but that doesn't seem to be much of a problem either. Sure, the guide dog is necessary and often she needs to be picked up at the reception and shown where the meeting room is, but if that's a problem... So yes, Dutch government is prepared to invest more in employing people with a disability, and I understand that a for-profit organisation might hesitate, but really, a lot of less abled people can actually work if you give them the chance.

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RE: Is there something wrong with a Master who can't/wo... - 7/20/2008 3:31:49 PM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Slaveboy, Baptists are not "Protestants."
The Baptist Movement existed before the Catholic Church and was never a part of the Catholic Church so how could they be a part of the Protestant Reformation?


Are you actually serious?



ArtCatDom, yes, "Baptist" is a seperate religion.
"Protestant" means a "declaration" against the Pope, "one who protests."
Martin Luther originated that declaration and "Lutherins", Methodists, Anglicans, Episcopals, Calvinists and Presbytarians also "declared" they were against rule by the Pope.
But, they were all Catholics previously and had belonged to the Catholic Church.
Baptists were never Catholics and therefor had no reason to "protest" against the Pope.
They never "protested" or "declared" and never took part in the protestant reformation.
Also, they are not "offshoots" from any of the above groups and existed long before those groups and the Catholic Church.
If you read about the Protestant Reformation it says nothing about Baptists because they were never involved in it being a "stand alone religion" which already existed.
I once mistakenly called a Baptist Minister a "Protestant" and he said; "Oh, we're not Protestant we're Baptists.
Read the Baptist "perpetuity."


I'm sorry, but you've been misinformed by a vocal fringe group among the Baptists that is long past its peak. The Baptists clearly have their roots in the Reformation, starting with the Anabaptists. You can even call them doubly protesting, as their early history is also strongly associated with Anglican Nonconformism. Additionally, one of the principal religious splits among Baptists is firmly rooted in Protestant theology, with a broad divide existing between Calvanist and Wesleyian Baptists. Most Baptists openly acknowledge and firmly embrace their Reformation roots.

A small minority of Baptists do hold to a belief that they can be traced back to the original church in Jerusalem. This movement arose among Baptists during the height of Restorationist movement in the mid-19th century. Restorationism produced numerous movements and churches claiming to be the original Christianity, such as the Mormons, Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses. From a historical or academic point of view, the claims of the Successionist Baptists are no more credible or convincing than those of any other Restorationist group.

It may be worth noting that some "Originalist" Baptists, while claiming to best represent original Christianity, have no relation to the the movement mentioned above. They form a somewhat larger minority among the Baptists. They make no claim to an unbroken succession or a continually recurring sequence of Baptist practices throughout history. Indeed, they reject the Restorationist claims, finding assertions of kinship with such heretics as the Cathari deeply distasteful and repugnant. This portion of Baptists claim that their faith is the most authentic in relation to primitive Christianity, based on scriptural study and obedience.

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