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RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 9:43:14 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:

He then passed some judgments on the participants in the dynamic.


No judgements, just some observations and questions. I didn't say "this is wrong". I said "I'd love to hear why it's not", yes? I think that you might be confusing passing judgment with inviting a discourse about the ethics of something. They aren't the same thing.


To me , this reminds me a lot of the problems had with iwill's "Justify My Love" thread. When you ask people do defend a particular action (which you cleary do when you ask the question "please tell me why this actions is not wrong?") they are going to assume you think it is wrong. You didn't say "I don't get really nasty verbal hummiliation. Would someone who gets off on this please explain how this activity can be life affirming and wonderful?"

Instead, you described your emotional reaction, sadness, and then asked people to explain how this could be anything but the deliberate and nasty abuse of another human being and, most likely, a co-dependant relationship the likes of which you have personally seen lead to dead people in 55 gallon drums and/or suicide notes.

If people take that as passing judgment, I think you might understand why.

That said, I have no problem with your passing judgement or asking questions or making statements. I have enjoyed the discussion and heartily encourage you to keep posting. Just don't be surprised when people disagree and vehemently say so.

quote:


If you really do mean that she is worthless (without worth) why would you "love her anyway"? Why would you keep her around?


Why, indeed?

Once again, you have come up with the perfect question, but you stop short of really trying to understand, and instead of coming up with an answer that could possibly be a positive way to look at a situation you don't understand, you resort to an attack on the relationship as like ones you have seen that were co-dependant and dangerous.

I would answer this question that even though he really means it, and even though she really believes it, the fact that he does spend time with her proves them both wrong. And that is the only kind of proof that her wounded psyche will ever accept. Having a man tell her, "you are priceless, you are perfect, you are amazing," means nothing to her. In fact, it shows her that the man is a fool. Having a man agree with her inner-most fears and self-loathing, and then contradict his own words shows her that her inner-most fear and self-loathing might also be wrong. Giving her relief from them perhaps for the first time in her life.

quote:


quote:

Some people really believe they are a "worthless piece of dig shit" and that any one who thinks otherwise is a fool. When they find someone who will tell them the "truth" yet still love and care and devote their lives to them, it frees them, for the first time in their lives, to actually believe in a relationship, because no one is telling them something that they (in their heart-of-hearts) do not believe.


Again, if you see this kind of thing as "OK" we just part ways.


I don't see it as "OK", I see it as "NOMB" (none of my business). I see it as a dynamic between people and I tend to give people who know enough about themselves to be in the lifestyle the benefit of the doubt.

Somehow I have become the defender of a kink I don't even have. I am not into verbal humiliation, though I certainly understand some of the attraction. I don't use the word worthless to ever describe my slave. It's just that being someone who needs a dynamic that many might not consider SSC or even "healthy", I defend in the hopes that some of it sticks around to defend me later.

(Having shared as much about my own scars as I have in this thread, I can't help but think that while Berlin is in Cali on a modeling shoot (she says "hi" to everyone, btw), her inbox is filling up with warnings about me. *laughing*)

Yours,
Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 10:07:26 AM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Ok, your kink isn't my kink again. Same questions for you, since you probably have more context than what you offered here. Did he say it as if he meant it? Do you think he meant it? Did you get the impression that she thinks he means it? If so, why the hell would he keep her around? Does he think he deserves no better than whale shit in the bottom of the ocean? Other than utter lack of self-esteem, why the hell would she stay?

I have heard a man say, with a twinkle in his eye "you are a vicious little cunt" to his significant other, to which she responded, "the absolute worst". He wasn't serious, of course, and she knew it. Is this the kind of exchange that you are talking about? If so, I don't see anything wrong with that. It's almost like an inside joke. I didn't get the impression, though, that in the example I sited it was a joke. I think he meant it, and I think she believed it.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas.


In the reference I offered he obviously didn't mean that she was actually "lower than whale shit at the bottom of the ocean", and the situation was very very different than that which you have clarified since the post I responded to. However I maintain that there is "language" within the relationship (any relationship), which is accepted by those in the relationship. The thought that she that inspired this thread is no longer in the world, and murdered, distresses me. This is one of the gross negatives that represent those of us in the lifestyle, to others. I believe this goes beyond "language", and lifestyle. I think this example is more about psychotic behavior.

quote:

Holy shit, Iwill. We agree about something? Has CNN been alerted?


Be careful, Leo...your sense of humor is showing!



_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 10:19:48 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I don't see it as "OK", I see it as "NOMB" (none of my business). I see it as a dynamic between people and I tend to give people who know enough about themselves to be in the lifestyle the benefit of the doubt.


Yes. We part ways here too. If I see someone about to step off a cliff, I'm probably going to say so. True, it's not my affair. True, it might not even be appreciated, or well recieved. I think that sometimes, we have that obligation to one another as human beings, even when it isn't strictly any of our business. If I had known a little more about the woman that I spoke of earlier (the one that ended up in a drum), I probably would have given her all kinds of grief about letting a man tell her that she was just a fuck hole, and a worthless cunt for his use, thus preying on some self-loathing that she harbored, as it turns out, to tragic ends. I might have been disrespecting the fuck out of her "kink", but I would have done it anyway.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 10:53:37 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		You opinion that anyone whom does not give a
happy smillie face to the world of D/s is bogus
is moot.The same goes for Your assumption that
My words and thoughts in how I present My Gor
online is also. You are here writing as well so do
not slant online chatter, and I do use the books
much the same way in real life with My Groups
of Goreans when We are together in study and
gathering to discuss phylosphy. The Goreans Ive
met in the US and around the world seem to have
never took any issue to My carrying My Books around
and proving quotes to applyed philoshiphy. Others do not
control the actions of self when free, self controls the actions
of self. If sumone is felt to be worthless 24/7 it is
wholly their selfs that have made them feel this.
Now it is possible that a action could of caused this
initially but it is not a action that need be continued
by the person feeling such and not doing so is their
choice. They chose not to move on with life and over come.
Any one can say or do anything to hurt sumones
self esteem but it is up to that person to move on
from this and learn their Own values and shortcomings.
Those whom have cronic low self esteeem also
can not blame others for it. It is generated by self.
Those are the exceptions in a Humiliation type relationship
in the Lifestyle where two people are concensual. This
problem exsists far more out in the vanilla world then here
and this is a desire and need for many in BDSM. To tell Us
that We are not *OK* because We practice that which You
do not personally like is biased and if you Your self dident
have a need that is Alternate and concidered not normal
you wouldent be here. We all here are aware of the abuses
that go on and the differance between abuse and use. Being
Risk aware is a part of this Lifestyle no matter what part of it
You partake in. This person whom choose to obey a Masters
belittlement online did just that. Choose. if it led to Her self
esteem being altered that was her choice to have such done
she could of clicked the switch on the computer. And its the
same in the Lifestyle if a person chooses to meet to scene with
another person. If You have intimatly scened with a person on
line what would make you think that real life would be any different?
If they were into humiliation and you accepted this online it would
mean to that person that you accept it in real life if you are to meet because of this commonality of kink and of need of such.
You are seing the inside of a person here with out the hinderance
of their physical being. That is a great start and clue into a persons
makeup and if this person chose after being concensually humiliated
and degradated on line to meet this Master umm a clueee this is
what this person wants regardless of your opinon of that persons choices.
It was a good tempt to make Us all touchie feelie good people Leonides
but Your right We are not gonna follow Your parade to vanillaizum.
Oh yes one more thing Im glad that most of My words fly right over
Your head and You cannot understand any thing I say. people whom
have self esteem problems do not have them because of the lifestyle
or those whom have kinks that address or use self esteem but beause
they have not discovered their selfs and their centers for their selfs and
the strenth with in to overcome such * problems. I think that this mindset
is a good sample of the differance in the S.S.C. mindset and the R.A.C.K.
should a person be safe and sane to concent? or should a person be risk aware to concent? If You had Your way Leonides Noone would be allowed
to experiance extream humiliation simply because of how it made You feel. Now wouldent the world be boring then. JMO

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 11:05:36 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		THIS POST LEONIDES # 45 WAS IN REFERANCE TO YOUR LAST POST #84
MAYBE I WAS READING MINDS WHEN I POSTED THIS AND WHY YOU
WERE CONFUSED BY YOUR COMMENTS IN #46. I SEE NOW WHAT I
RESPONDED TO HAS NOW BEEN POSTED IN # 84 SO CONCIDER MY POST # 45 TO BE THE RESPONCE TO YOUR #84.
It is obvious that You relate one incidence with the whole of the S/M
community and Our kinks and do not like it that a preditor has used
Our Lifestyles kinks to gain a bad ending. That is not Your fault nor
anyones here nor would changing ones desire to be talked to in a way
thats less then normal to society as a whole does not make all of Us whom do such killers. Many more preditors and killers of Woman are those whom are all to normal looking and speak with tongues of sugar.

hm ethics in practices not accepted
by society as a whole.
NOw that is a Interesting concept.
Whipping is a sadistic action when
done for pleasure. Receiveing such
for same is masocistic. Know Your SnM.

Why ThankYou Taggard
Im surprised anyone noticed.
and wholly agree with most all
You said...except I think My kinks
to be normal and societys blandness
to be abnormal... and by the way
I think My posessions to be of great
value even when I call them shit for brains
Ive never used the dog shit one,Ive gotta
remember it..................giggles
but then again those whom know
Me know this fact......

(in reply to Leonidas)
Post #: 45


RE: Worthless - 7/28/2004 8:56:54 PM


quote:

Leonidas
Indecent

Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: online Huh? Um, could we get a translator in here? Does anyone speak Dread?

YOU DIDENT UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS COMMENTING ON BECAUSE THE POST THAT I HAD COMMENTED ON DIDENT SHOWUP TILL NUMBER #84. I GUESS IM A MIND READER AND SEEN A HEAD OF TIME WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO POST ABOUT THE END OF THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION. ~giggles~

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 11:07:26 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Geezus. I'm just not even gonna try. If anyone would like to translate this into English for me, maybe I could respond.

Leonidas

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 11:14:30 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		If you cannot read the
american language in
front of you to bad.
Others will.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 11:44:55 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

If it lowers a man or woman's self esteem and self-worth to be a slave, they should stop being a coward, get off their knees, and be free.


As somebody who works with survivors of abusive relationships, I wanted to comment on the use of the word "coward" in this sentence.

From my perspective, for what it is worth since I am not a a) woman, b) abuse survivor, c) rape survivor, etc., cowardice has nothing to do with it.

A person in a long-term abusive relationship tends to slide into the mindset that they cannot perceive of a world without the abuser in it. You can show them the door, you can offer them an easy escape, provide them with a team of ninja assassins to break them free, but their mind is so hopelessly innured in their existence that the idea that life could be anything apart from what they are living is something they simply cannot conceive.

Some have an epiphany one day and realize they can just leave, and those who are brave enough to do so actually do leave. Some cut off the abuser's penis and throw it from a moving car while the abuser sleeps, thereby facilitating a career move into adult films, but I digress.

A woman who has survived rape or child abuse often seems to me that somebody has carved off a part of her soul, and she might spend the rest of her life trying to reclaim what was taken from her against her will.

I am not sure what any of this really has to do with BDSM, but as I have posted before, I believe people's consciousness has some innate nature to it, and then is layered with his/her experience to make them who they are today. While it is easy to sit back and go "Because the person went through X, then Y logically follows," I think people are a lot more complex in their drives and motivations than that. So I see those who make those sorts of judgements to be searching for a pat answer to describe something they themselves cannot fathom.

As far as verbal humiliation, the fact that I dont understand the attraction doesnt necessarily mean I disagree with it. I read Leonidas' post as a query for opinions on the matter, and not necessarily an attack on a specific kink.

As usual, this is just me, and I could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 12:00:45 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

As somebody who works with survivors of abusive relationships, I wanted to comment on the use of the word "coward" in this sentence.


Yes, it would be out of line for me (at least in my opinion) to call an abuse victim a coward for staying in that kind of relationship. I know the syndrome of which you speak, and yes, it is extremely hard to break out of. I was talking about people who might "hide out" as a slave and hate themselves for doing so, just to avoid the responsibility that goes with being free. To me, that is a real form of cowardice.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 12:12:55 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Yes, it would be out of line for me (at least in my opinion) to call an abuse victim a coward for staying in that kind of relationship. I know the syndrome of which you speak, and yes, it is extremely hard to break out of. I was talking about people who might "hide out" as a slave and hate themselves for doing so, just to avoid the responsibility that goes with being free. To me, that is a real form of cowardice.


Thank you for that clarification, Leonidas.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 12:13:29 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: melycious
Perhaps i make too much out of a post which didnt include lots of the specifics, however, i dont think any of us, particulary if you work in the mental health field or if you spend a lot of time with lifestyle folks, can afford to think that even in D/s relationships, that abuse does and will occur.


There weren't a lot of specifics. You are right about that. I guess it is question of determining in each case whether it is humiliation *play* (and by this, I don't mean a game necessarily, but rather that both parties are aware of the purpose) or if it is abuse.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to melycious)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 2:29:50 PM   
darchart


Posts: 35
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		I have seen the banter go back and forth between some intelligent and eloquent minds but as beautiful as the words they write are... the question that started out seems lost a little.

Does he believe his slave is a worthless lump of ....... and does she believe it?
If she was worthless he wouldnt keep her. If she thought she were worth nothing to him she wouldnt stay. At least that is how I see it.

IMO I believe that if my Master sat me down and degraded me I would cry for days! UNLESS, I believed he needed this type of play for his own wellbeing, then i would run right out and find him a lil subbie who needed to be degraded (cuz I am a wuss and I could so not take be degraded or humiliated, luckily he knows this).
Every person, vanilla or not, has issues inside of themselves that we work out in our own ways. Some people have a hard time believing they are worthy of unconditional love so they test the love over and over to reassure themselves. I know I myself, have been guilty of that a time or two. If my Master sees a need within me to push a limit or expand a horizon, he guides me into it...even if I dont know I feel this need sometimes.. *grins*
Just because her master says to her she is a worthless lump of ....... Doesnt mean he truely feels this way. Perhaps its her need he is exploring, since she says that is what she is.
Each situation can be seen in a different light depending on the eyes you see it through...

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 3:10:50 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline
quote:

A person in a long-term abusive relationship tends to slide into the mindset that they cannot perceive of a world without the abuser in it. You can show them the door, you can offer them an easy escape, provide them with a team of ninja assassins to break them free, but their mind is so hopelessly innured in their existence that the idea that life could be anything apart from what they are living is something they simply cannot conceive.


This is not true (based on my experience). I am referring to what I have highlighted in the quote, not the entire quote. Those who are abused/raped/battered (physically/emotionally) do know that life can be different, and can conceive that their life can be different . Sadly, they believe it will be "better", or "different" if they comply with their abuser, or "love them enough", in most cases. They are viewing it from the "what am I doing wrong?" perspective. I also disagree with the word "hopelessly". I suppose until that last breath leaves the body...there is hope. "Hopeless" and "Fearful" are not synonymous. We can overcome fear with education, realistic solutions, support, and time.

What this would have to do with BDSM is that it also occurs within the Lifestyle, as if being in the Lifestyle somehow justifies this behavior/abuse/situation. Of course it doesn't. However, I will also say that while there are extremes, there are also situations like that what I described earlier in this thread where the couple have their "language", but their relationship is not "abusive" to one or the other. We may wander into the controversial SSC here. I play/interact with the safety of my sub in mind at all times. I don't lay claim to sanity. I don't play/interact unless consentual is absolutely clear, and understood.



_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 5:34:03 PM   
desire


Posts: 8
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Taggard,

quote:

I am trying hard not to reply to this in a "my kink is deeper than your kink" way, but I have to make a comment on this. Some people are not into the lifestyle for the "play" or the "fun and pleasure and enjoyment." For some, this life is something that they are, all the time. There is no "play" time where words suddenly don't mean what they do normally.

Some peple in this life want to be used and debased and degraded and humiliated and they want it all the time and in as real a fashion as the law allows. They find satisfaction and a wholeness that go far beyond "fun and pleasure and enjoyment." They leave marriages and lives that offered BDSM as "fun and pleasure and enjoyment" because that simply doesn't statisfy that dark craving in their soul.


Okay, that came out wrong and I apologize. I didn't mean it to sound like it was about fun and games. But I do believe that that "dark craving" in a person's soul that is finally satisfied or satisfied as completely as possible given the world we live in today, would bring more happiness and pleasure than we can imagine when first embarking on that journey into our souls. Once the craving is satisfied and relieved from the other side of our desires and needs, I can only dream at the moment of what that wholeness and deep statisfaction would be like. Yet I think there would be a tremendous amount of being content and at peace at last. Therefore at least a tiny bit of pleasure and happiness to follow.

desire

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 6:03:05 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline
quote:

spring of '83 when I came through.


M. Leonidas-

I was only there four months TAD covering for a broken legged Chief. I have mad boat skillz and can make a futura sit up and beg.

Spring of '83 I was occupying Beirut.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 6:14:05 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Hey Topcat,

A marine with skillz? Damn, man. You must be some kind of heart-breaker. Bad shit in Beruit. We only lost a handfull at Patilla, but it still hurts.

Take care of yourself.

Leonidas

(in reply to topcat)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 6:29:07 PM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Holy shit, Iwill. We agree about something? Has CNN been alerted?

Take care of yourself

Leonidas


You ready for a heart attack? I agree with your pencil arguement. (You, know, the line between moral and immoral must be drawn and I think we should hold the pencil. I'm applying my metaphor, but I agree with you that we have the responsibility to decide.)

Oh, just for the record, I also disagree with you on this. (C'mon I got to stop agreeing with you sometime.)

Whose standards should go into drawing the line? Ours. Who makes whatever "ethics", "moraliy" or "protocol" is used? We do.

On this specific topic I really don't care a whole lot. I mean if person A calls person B names and person B is OK with it, can someone explain why I'm involved again? I'm just guessing, but are not persons A and B more closely involved and more knowledgable of their scene than me? If person "B" has any of a thousand reasons (some good some for psychoanalyst) why they are OK with it should I say "Whoa, uncool!"

To quote John Wayne in Hondo "I let people do what they are going to do." (That did not absolve him from telling the boy the growling dog did not like being petted. It allowed him to get ready to check the boy's hand when he ignored good advice and tried to pet the dog anyway.)

In short I agree with you that we should (and do) hold the pencil but I think the line should be more to the right.

< Message edited by iwillserveu -- 7/29/2004 6:46:25 PM >

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 6:29:15 PM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Gloria,

I agree the person saying that has issues of thinking that (See the ANOCONYM DOM) If the person hearing that knows, so?

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 6:29:20 PM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I am wierdly agreeing with Leonidas somewhat on this. I've got no problem with you doing what your doing, but if you have a deep psychological need that you can't control and she fills it, isn't she for that second the one in power. (She has the power to say, "I'm not dog shit," and leave you miserable.)

As a sub I can say you should be 98% sure you'll like the answer before asking the question. (Only 98% because it can't be 100% and mean anything.)

Oh there is nothing wrong with being submissive, even if Leonidas will say there is.

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Worthless - 7/29/2004 6:42:05 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I am wierdly agreeing with Leonidas somewhat on this. I've got no problem with you doing what your doing, but if you have a deep psychological need that you can't control and she fills it, isn't she for that second the one in power. (She has the power to say, "I'm not dog shit," and leave you miserable.)


Co-dependant and dominant ain't the same thing. Damn, we're agreeing again? Has anybody checked to see if peace broke out in the middle-east today? This is wierd.

quote:

Oh there is nothing wrong with being submissive, even if Leonidas will say there is.


If that's what you are, then that is what you should be. We just disagreed as to whether there was such a thing as a dominant man, and why you aren't one.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to iwillserveu)
Profile   Post #: 100
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