RE: Obama ups the stakes...

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philosophy -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 4:30:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Doesn't matter how much you try to obfuscate the point. ....awww, did you get all annoyed because we didn't agree with your so-called point? Basically it was a non-sequiter, caused by your lack of understanding. Bandy the word obfurscate around all you like, but it's your lack of comprehension at issue here. quote: The chosen one, Obama, his greatest accomplishment to date is... winning his party's nomination? ....i'd argue a couple of other points.....not least the achievement of getting foreigners to wave the US flag as oppoed to burning it. However, in narrow domestic terms he hasn't done much. The fact that many in the US think foreign policy utterly irrelevant says more about US culture than any of the candidates. quote: Oh, I get the irony. That's okay, because... he's just like Bush... And Bush is irrelevant. Irony doesn't get any thicker than that, in my estimation! ...pity it's not actually irony though. Merely a clumsy insult. You've been caught misunderstanding someone elses post.......that's all. Done it myself in the past and apologised for it. Your problem is that you seem to be incapable of admitting error.

Sanity -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 4:34:49 PM)
You need read the thread again, to clear things up for yourself. How can I have missed that "point" when I questioned it in post # 18 quote: Ah, but would you say the same thing about Bush. That's the real test, there. Do you think that Bush is a great man with an outstanding achievement under his belt for having done the same, only difference being which political party he won the nomination in. quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u And again Sanity you seem to miss the point,whether intentionally or not I have no idea.Let me try to make it clearer for you...CL(from your side of th aisle)made a statement that Obama is a man of no accomplishment ,Philo and myself pointed out that winning his party's nomination was in and of itself an accomplishment see how that was a rebuttal ....clear enough now?

Sanity -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 4:45:58 PM)
That's what I'd say about your attempts, philo. quote: Merely a clumsy insult. Effective foreign policy means far more than giving a speech after a free rock concert in Germany. Some Germans waving paper American flags means very little, really. Probably as many wiped their asses with it. What was really accomplished there? A photo op. That's it. He's a pop star, greatest achievement being nothing.

philosophy -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 4:53:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Effective foreign policy means far more than giving a speech after a free rock concert in Germany. ...true. We agree there. quote: Some Germans waving paper American flags means very little, really. ...to you maybe, but to those of us who follow these things thats actually a giant shift in German public opinion. quote: Probably as many wiped their asses with it. ....prove it. Link to a blog, a site, a picture of anyone doing this at the speech. You can;t can you? But you're happy to blithely spout your prejudices without a shred of evidence. quote: What was really accomplished there? A photo op. That's it. ......among other things......but unless you feel that what happens outside US borders has meaning for US citizens you'll never see those other things. quote: He's a pop star, greatest achievement being nothing. ....your opinion. However i have yet to see him pick up a guitar.

Sanity -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 5:34:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: Some Germans waving paper American flags means very little, really. ...to you maybe, but to those of us who follow these things thats actually a giant shift in German public opinion. Why should I care whether some Germans want us to elect our least experienced, furthest-Left US Senator for president. quote: quote: Probably as many wiped their asses with it. ....prove it. Link to a blog, a site, a picture of anyone doing this at the speech. You can;t can you? But you're happy to blithely spout your prejudices without a shred of evidence. I've lived in Germany, I know full well what the German people are like. They don't care about America that much, though some love Americans - and there are those who I'm sure won't like Obama at all either, just because he's black. And I said probably. You voice your opinion here, so you're no position to call foul on me simply for voicing my opinion. Who said that we have to stick to absolute facts? What bullshit. Where is your evidence concerning your claims about German public opinion, for example. Before you try to insult others for not accompanying their every opinion with links to hard news articles, you had ought to go back and examine your own record here. Don't you think? quote: quote: What was really accomplished there? A photo op. That's it. ......among other things......but unless you feel that what happens outside US borders has meaning for US citizens you'll never see those other things. Of course I "feel" that things that happen outside our borders have meanings for US citizens... but I also know that Americans can't vote for an unqualified candidate just because there are those in Germany who like him for throwing free rock concerts. quote: quote: He's a pop star, greatest achievement being nothing. ....your opinion. However i have yet to see him pick up a guitar. Not all pop stars have the talent required to play the guitar.

kittinSol -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 6:17:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity I've lived in Germany, I know full well what the German people are like. They don't care about America that much, though some love Americans - and there are those who I'm sure won't like Obama at all either, just because he's black. Okay, this is the kind of generality that just cracks me up. Exactly the kind of shit that assumes to know what a person's opinion is because of their nationality. Who are you to talk on behalf of anybody, let alone an entire country? Your hubris is unfuckingbelievable.

slvemike4u -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 6:19:41 PM)
Sanity I actually agree with you on this point: Effective foreign policy means far more than giving a speech after a free rock concert in Germany. Some Germans waving paper American flags means very little, really. quote Sanity Effective foreign policy does mean far more than giving a speech or sending a Division of Marines.Might also mean talking to those viewed as enemy's like Iran and North Korea wouldn't it.

Sanity -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 6:44:39 PM)
Where were you when philo was talking on behalf of the Germans, kitten? What do you call this. Convenient outrage... ? quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity I've lived in Germany, I know full well what the German people are like. They don't care about America that much, though some love Americans - and there are those who I'm sure won't like Obama at all either, just because he's black. Okay, this is the kind of generality that just cracks me up. Exactly the kind of shit that assumes to know what a person's opinion is because of their nationality. Who are you to talk on behalf of anybody, let alone an entire country? Your hubris is unfuckingbelievable.

slvemike4u -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 7:25:34 PM)
Okay well enough with this in-sanity and back to our previously scheduled program.Thad you seem to be implying Obama should not acknowledge the fact that he is a man of color.Why are Democrats seemingly expected to allways maintain the high moral ground while losing the election's.

Thadius -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 7:41:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Okay well enough with this in-sanity and back to our previously scheduled program.Thad you seem to be implying Obama should not acknowledge the fact that he is a man of color.Why are Democrats seemingly expected to allways maintain the high moral ground while losing the election's. I am not suggesting that he shouldn't be proud of his color or heritage, what I was suggesting is that claiming that the Republicans, or more specifically McCain, are saying don't vote for me because I am black, is a scare tactic at best, and race baiting at worse. It has particular significance to where he delivered this accusation in 3 different campaign stops, as these types of claims were made just a few years ago in Missouri radio ads... the infamous "church bombing, cross burning." ads. With all of the crazy and stupid shit the McCain campaign has done, they have never crossed that line or even implied that Obama is not qualified because of how he looks, his name, or his race. In fact, McCain has been outright vocal against the idiots that try to do so, like the radio jock that introduced him at that campaign event and kept emphasising "Hussein"... McCain came out right away and made it clear how he felt about the bullshit smear based on those things. I will let the topic get back to what it has become though, as there are some valid discussions going on. I don't want to sidetrack the sidetrack. [;)]

Sanity -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 7:53:32 PM)
You know what? We've been talking with them, and we've made progress with North Korea. And something that Obama did that impressed the hell out of me was, he told the Iranians that they had better step up and pay attention, because this situation is serious. I forget his exact words, so you'll have to forgive my paraphrasing him this way. quote: Might also mean talking to those viewed as enemy's like Iran and North Korea wouldn't it.

slvemike4u -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 7:59:58 PM)
Nah none of those sidetracks intrigue me like this ,it amazes me to hear someone decry Democratic Campaign practices.Lets see who did Mr Rove work for...who's interest were represented by The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth...and who rolled over and played dead the last two presidential elections...Gore and Kerry for the most part retained the high moral ground and lost the election... This time it would appear the Democrats will not be satisfied with running a good clean campaign...they actually intend to win this one...and I applaud them for it..The Obama campaign got a small taste of what to expect during the divisive primary.For all the talk of a media bias who had their feet held to the fire over the comments of clergy.McCain and his right wing demagogue supporters or Obama and Rev.(winkie...pet name)Wright...now what ,Obama should sit back and only respond to this stuff or should he and his campaign assume the Republicans will run the same old dirty campaign that has been sucessfull the last two times and get out in front....this will not be Al Gore's or john Kerry's campaign

Thadius -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 8:19:26 PM)
Are you suggesting that the "swift boat ads" weren't the same as some of the "move-on ads"? Both sides of the fence have 527s that are going to smear the candidate of the opposition. I would even suggest this is the same tactic that was used in the primaries, to make America's original "first black president" Clinton come off as playing the race issue. Obama has kept claiming he is the "post-racial" candidate. If one give Obama the benefit of the doubt, that he was not intentionally pointing fingers. Obama's mistake was trying to link the garbage that some bloggers are saying with McCain. The Obama campaign came out tonight to clear it up, “Barack Obama in no way believes that the McCain campaign is using race as an issue..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc4Re_ai01I This is the same as the garbage of linking what some of Obama's associates have said. To use your example, Winkie or Farrakahn. What would the reaction have been if McCain said something along the lines of "Their campaign is going to try to scare you by saying that I look like all of the other presidents, oh did I mention I am white." Do you see what I mean?

Owner59 -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 8:28:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Sanity I actually agree with you on this point: Effective foreign policy means far more than giving a speech after a free rock concert in Germany. Some Germans waving paper American flags means very little, really. quote Sanity Effective foreign policy does mean far more than giving a speech or sending a Division of Marines.Might also mean talking to those viewed as enemy's like Iran and North Korea wouldn't it. Does it count for anything that Mr Obama majored in political science with a specialization in international relations and traveled the world a bit? Does it count for anything that Bush never left the US until after taking office? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It`s the republicans who are making his popularity a big deal and whining about it. I think the republicans are turning to this low-brow silliness because on policy ,they can`t win the debate. Obama is actually making real arguments and winning them.And the debate is a very important one,now more than ever. The republicans are diminishing the debate and playing cute with the process by saying Obama is nothing but another pretty face. Who the fuck cares about that crap?Certainly, the republicans are pre-occupied with Obama`s popularity.They`re fixated and smiten with him.They wish they had someone as talented and dynamic. But all that`s not really important. Mr Obama has kept to the issues(real ones) and just doing his thing. Republicans obviously don`t want a serious debate.Complaining about Mr. Obama`s celebrity seems pretty shallow and frivolous. The republicans are just sore about getting their asses handed to them.They can smell death in the air and are a sad lot, now a days.

slvemike4u -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 8:33:49 PM)
No Thad the Democrats don't do this shit as well as the Republicans,they engage in it ,they just don't do it as well... Thad this is simply a page from Rove's playbook nothing more and nothing less.McCains campaign chuck full of ex bushies can lay no claim to clean hands...And if I were working in Obama's campaign I would have no problem with getting out in front of this shit...if you think for a moment this campaign isn't going to be dirty and divisive I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to talk to you about

Owner59 -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 8:33:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius Are you suggesting that the "swift boat ads" weren't the same as some of the "move-on ads"? Both sides of the fence have 527s that are going to smear the candidate of the opposition. I would even suggest this is the same tactic that was used in the primaries, to make America's original "first black president" Clinton come off as playing the race issue. Obama has kept claiming he is the "post-racial" candidate. If one give Obama the benefit of the doubt, that he was not intentionally pointing fingers. Obama's mistake was trying to link the garbage that some bloggers are saying with McCain. The Obama campaign came out tonight to clear it up, “Barack Obama in no way believes that the McCain campaign is using race as an issue..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc4Re_ai01I This is the same as the garbage of linking what some of Obama's associates have said. To use your example, Winkie or Farrakahn. What would the reaction have been if McCain said something along the lines of "Their campaign is going to try to scare you by saying that I look like all of the other presidents, oh did I mention I am white." Do you see what I mean? Are you saying that MoveOn made something up or lied,as the swiftboaters did w/ Kerry? Could you back that up,being as accurate and thorough you are?

Thadius -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (7/31/2008 10:35:41 PM)
Are you saying that McCain is using those tactics? Please share any proof, or even a link showing that McCain supports that kind of tactic. Let's just do a little stroll down memory lane, as it shouldn't sidetrack the topic all that much. Where to begin... First one to come to mind is the General Betray us ad... The Bush-Hitler ad was really accurate... Let's not forget the fines they had to pay for particular ads in battleground states... Well the newest ads from move on are alot of fun... no scare tactics at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFeHMu4IXJg Our children will suffer if McCain is elected. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq30lapbC9c Baby Alex. (just a quick note: THERE IS NO DRAFT, so Alex would have to volunteer if the 100 year claim was accurate) Oh and why not include a warm and fuzzy one https://pol.moveon.org/donate/thanksgiving-QT.html https://pol.moveon.org/donate/pollshow-QT.html But let's look at what some Democrats say... quote: John Kerry- All sober Democrats realize not only that the Moveon.org ad was a political disaster, but more importantly, that the Moveon.org/Michael Moore/Cindy Sheehan/Hollywood ticking bombs actually scare off Americans, even as they demand more influence among the candidates. Mind you these are some of the friendlier ones... I don't even want to get into some of their contest videos. Let's take a look at some other fun activities by these protectors of the American voter.... http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/ohio_electionreport.1.pdf quote: In dozens of precincts in Hamilton County, individuals working for MoveOn.org were observed throughout the day within the polling places distributing Kerry campaign literature, and encouraging the illegal use of regular ballots, and “flushing” the voter lists. In one instance MoveOn.Org had a table inside the 100’ limit with up to 16 people conducting political activity for Kerry/Edwards campaign throughout the day. c) Move-On.Org Enjoined by Court for Voter Intimidation and Harassment On Election Day, two individuals in Franklin County were threatened and harassed at the polling place by agents of MoveOn.org after being asked about their voting preference and revealing their intention to vote Republican. Similar situations occurred in virtually every county around the state and prompted a lawsuit filed in the Franklin County Common Pleas Court. Voters were intimidated by MoveOn.org in an attempt to dissuade them from voting for George W. Bush or in an attempt to harass them after they voted. The complaint has subsequently been amended to include similar acts by agents of MoveOn.org that occurred elsewhere in the state. See Timms et al. v. MoveOn.Org, Franklin County Court of Common Pleas, Case No. 04 CVH11 011533. (Exhibit S.) That is enough of the sidetrack for this trip... The point is that 527s and 501s are going to say whatever they choose to, in order to influence folks. The topic at hand has nothing to do with the political action groups, there are already enough of those going on... the topic was why accuse McCain of trying to scare folks "because I don't look like other presidents".

Vendaval -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (8/1/2008 12:23:58 AM)
Please warn me before you do that, ice water everywhere! quote]ORIGINAL: bipolarber McCain: because Obama is too popular with "the help." [/quote]

Vendaval -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (8/1/2008 12:31:07 AM)
General Reply - Is this still on topic or totally off course at this point? From the largest German news weekly, Spiegel, an English translation on Senator Obama's European visit. "The Triumph of the Anti-Bush" By Erich Follath July 28, 2008 "He gave an almost poetic speech, a tour de force through global politics, but without many specifics, in which he invoked what has fallen by the wayside during the Bush years without even referring to George W.: the partnership with Europe, cooperation on climate protection, phasing out nuclear weapons. On the topic of Afghanistan, he called on the Germans to play a more active role. He didn't utter a single negative word abroad about his own government, about the lies that were used to justify the Iraq war, about the ongoing revelations of torture by the CIA, or the fact that 74 percent of Americans feel that their country is on the wrong path. On this very special Thursday evening at Berlin's Victory Column, a crowd of 200,000 was fascinated by Obama, cheering this man who presents himself as a citizen of the world, and who they hope will become the next US president." http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,568551,00.html

meatcleaver -> RE: Obama ups the stakes... (8/1/2008 1:01:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Doesn't matter how much you try to obfuscate the point. The chosen one, Obama, his greatest accomplishment to date is... winning his party's nomination? History is full of great men who only became great after achieving power. The fact that McCain has got to such an age without any great achievement is noteable in its absence. And being taken prisoner is unfortunate for him personally and not a noteable achievement in and of itself.

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