RE: ok, then what IS submissive?

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RCdc -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 2:41:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Maxwell67 quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark So what if your property was completely in sync with your desires? So that everything you enjoyed and asked her to do, she did? Would you alter your desires and get her to do things purposefully that she disliked? I answered this actually, even while you were writing this post, so it is above.. but I think I need to explain more. Yes I saw! Thank you. The only thing I would add and see in your scenario though is that she still wanted to do it for you. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 2:46:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Nope, not at all. Those are words you put in my mouth and bare no resemblance to anything I said in the above quote. Simply put, we can define submission as "obeying one's will", but I find it highly unrealistic to think that I am never going to have to give a command that falls into the category of being unenjoyable or defined as something they don't want to do. No. I asked you a question based on the impression you gave me by what wasn't said in your quote. But you have answered and its all cool. Thanks. the.dark.

MadRabbit -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 2:52:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Nope, not at all. Those are words you put in my mouth and bare no resemblance to anything I said in the above quote. Simply put, we can define submission as "obeying one's will", but I find it highly unrealistic to think that I am never going to have to give a command that falls into the category of being unenjoyable or defined as something they don't want to do. No. I asked you a question based on the impression you gave me by what wasn't said in your quote. But you have answered and its all cool. Thanks. the.dark. Aww, well, perhaps you might work on coming off a little less condescending and antagonistic. It would come off less of an attack and more of a question. [:D]

RCdc -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 2:52:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx Great responses everyone, I do feel like I am growing by reading them. Dark, especially, thank you. ~Christina You are welcome blushes. quote: In another thread a submissive wrote of doing things she hadn't expected to have to do to care for her dom. Many people came down hard on her because it isn't any different than being vanilla. I really enjoyed your question on this thread, but I am also slightly 'confused' why many people did respond in the way they did on the other thread, if I am thinking of the same one. I was going to comment on that thread, but held back because it seemed at the time, to be more drama than it was worth. But I probably should have posted on it.[;)] the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 3:04:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Aww, well, perhaps you might work on coming off a little less condescending and antagonistic. It would come off less of an attack and more of a question. [:D] Moi? Condescending and antagonistic? Like I haven't heard that before![sm=jaw.gif][:D] People(some not all) would assist themselves if they get off the whole jive that responding posts aren't always personal and about them, but about the issue brought up. People really aren't that important outside their own little worlds. But if most people didn't view everything as a personal attack, then the discussions on CC would be much more civil. And ultimately, a lot more boring.[sm=tired.gif][;)] the.dark.

MadRabbit -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 3:15:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Aww, well, perhaps you might work on coming off a little less condescending and antagonistic. It would come off less of an attack and more of a question. [:D] Moi? Condescending and antagonistic? Like I haven't heard that before![sm=jaw.gif][:D] People(some not all) would assist themselves if they get off the whole jive that responding posts aren't always personal and about them, but about the issue brought up. People really aren't that important outside their own little worlds. But if most people didn't view everything as a personal attack, then the discussions on CC would be much more civil. And ultimately, a lot more boring.[sm=tired.gif][;)] the.dark. Just trying to be helpful.

RCdc -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 3:30:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Just trying to be helpful. I am absolutely positive that you are. But it isn't something I haven't heard before. And as I have always said, people take me as they find me and hang around, or they dissipate. I have also been told I am straight up and honest and that I rock (which of course, I do and wouldn't dream of arguing with[;)]) - yet some people find it condescending. People will take words in the way they would issue them if they had said the same thing... I find it is a pretty good way of weeding out the people I would get along with Vs. those I wouldn't. Darcy enjoys the way I am and wouldn't have me change or type differently because certain people view me a certain way or so I do not risk offending people... it would be a lie of who I genuinely am and less than honest. And I submit to his will. How cool is that?[:D] the.dark.

DavidS8ist -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 3:50:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst If that is the case then nillas are submissive all the time. I know my mother never liked washing the dishes. I know my dad wasn't joyful about mowing the lawn. I know that I must feed my birds daily to shut them up. I didnt think I was submitting to them. I just thought I was making my life more peaceful. I don't enjoy it, even if I am submitting to it. Kyst Or. Submission is state of being in a dynamic between two (or more) people wherein one surrenders to the authority of the other. It needn't be defined by a specific act, how the act is done, what protocols (if any) are in place (I always thought a protocol was something I had to find in the phone book after screwing up a plumbing repair). In essence, one isn't "A submissive". One submits to a particular other person to whom the first can not not submit. It's a state of being that may not exist for any other person. Or it can be a state of being elicited by anyone slightly more dominant. Not many enjoy all the chores and responsibilities of life. Doing them doesn't make one submissive. Doing them for someone probably does (although we get into that blurry "what about the parent doing all those things for a child, does that make the parent the child's submissive" world of specious counter-arguments). And therein is the realty of the situation. Because what I expect from someone in service to me is probably completely different what the next guy or gal wants from someone in service to them. When one asks "Master, how may I serve you" and has the same internal response whether that answer is "Kneel, bitch" or "Paint the living room," it's probably a good bet that that person is submissive. As to "what makes..." either? Hard wiring and the perception of the other person. I can think myself dominant from now until the cows come home (and where the hell did those cows go, anyway? And who gave them permission?). If no one is internally compelled to submit to my authority, it don't mean shit to a tree. D. "You had your whole life to prepare for this moment. Why aren't you ready?" - David Mamet, "Spartan"

eyesopened -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 5:24:01 AM)
I've always liked the dictionary definition: 'to yield to the authority of another' In this definition, submission first recongizes Authority and then yields to that Authority. It requires a change in focus away from oneself to focus on the Authority figure. It is beautiful in its simplicity.

Maxwell67 -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 6:08:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Yes I saw! Thank you. The only thing I would add and see in your scenario though is that she still wanted to do it for you. the.dark. You are welcome.. and yes of course that is true but that is, to me, the whole point. It is not as if she dreamt of submitting to the will of another person before we met. The fact is she didn't. Just the opposite, actually. I think if anyone suggested to ther that she was capable of doing that before I came along, that person would have found themslves in a world of hurt. There is something very special about our relationship in that regard. Yes, she wanted to do it, but anyone else who suggested these things to her would be pulling her foot our of their ass. She did them for me because she wanted to please me, and that in turn made it all worthwhile for her. If I had to point to one trait that would identify her as submissive to me, that is it. That is what this thread is about isn't it?

IrishMist -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 8:08:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Maxwell67 quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist Quite honestly; its just a word that people throw around for impact. By 'impact', I suppose you mean they use it to make an impression on someone? All words are 'just words.' If you do not give them a meaning they are just letters on a page in a pattern that can be spoken aloud to make a relatively unique sound. What good does reducing any word to that level do? It has to have some kind of generally accepted meaning to have any use at all. There is some level of ambiguity in all words, but taken in the context of a phrase most people get a general impression of a meaning, even if is it just onomatpoeia. All of our conversations about what this label or that means to each of us is very useful, I think. We are learning about each other. Trying to reach some consensus on a general level and insert an individual perspective to give each other some impresson of 'who I am' as well. Are we actually going to EVER crystallize one of these labels down to a single meaning everyone can agree on? Gods, I hope not. Edited because somehow I missed half of a sentence when cutting and pasting this from the general 'stream of conciousness' scratch page I often use to organize my thoughts... I am sorry; I understand where you are going with this, and on the outside, I partially agree with you BUT telling someone else that I am submissive; does not make it so someone telling me I am submissive; does not make it so acting like I am submissive; does not make it so just because there are some that I react that way to; does not make me a submissive submission is felt; it is not 'acted' or bestowed by others or self...it is felt...whether for a few hours of play, or for a lifetime...it is felt.

Maxwell67 -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 8:30:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist I am sorry; I understand where you are going with this, and on the outside, I partially agree with you BUT telling someone else that I am submissive; does not make it so someone telling me I am submissive; does not make it so acting like I am submissive; does not make it so just because there are some that I react that way to; does not make me a submissive Oh come on! ... now you are just saying that to be contrary. If you look like a submissive and you act like a submissive and everyone around you including yourself says that you are a submissive, but you are not a submissive, then what are you? A kumquat? I call shenanigans on you! *Shenanigans!* [sm=crop.gif]

RCdc -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 8:56:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Maxwell67 If I had to point to one trait that would identify her as submissive to me, that is it. That is what this thread is about isn't it? Yes - the thread is about submission and what it is - but one can only answer that on a personal level in all honesty. It would be a mistake to think that just because she is submissive to you and you were able to nurture that and bring it out in her, doesn't make her anymore submissive to another person - which in essence is what IM is trying to get across(I believe). Just because you identify as dominant, does not make it so to me(for example). I am sure you are a lovely man and I do not mean that as a slight on your person, but the measure of dominance isn't how many people submit to you, or identify you as such - but what you feel inside. I adore IM - she posts fucking excellently - but do I see her or identify her as a slave or submissive? No. But as a person. If she identifies as a slave to her Master to me on a personal level, I am totally happy accepting His and her definition because it's not up to me to define them or their dynamic. I simply accept her as a human and what I discover along the way during getting to know her is the fluff and dressing that defines her human nature and her persona. Anything else is just second guessing - and that isn't always healthy. the.dark.

MercTech -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 8:59:57 AM)
Submission, subordination, and the mechanics of life. I haven't seen the middle ground of subordination mentioned on CM before but it is a concept the military teaches well. The mechanics of life, those things that one must do to keep your house functioning, clean, and usable. I can't see doing laundry or washing dishes as submission but doing your part in the mechanics of life. Doing chores because they need doing and not because someone stands over you and makes you. Subordination would be accepting that "dishes" is your chore for the week as it is your turn on a rota and someone needs to do it. Subordination by accepting a decision made outside your self whether it be from boss, dom, senior house member, or household consensus. Submission is when your wants and desires are less important to your well being than the wants and desires of another. s:"I'm in the mood for Chinese. May we go out tonight?" D:"Going out sounds good. We are going to Outback for prime rib. Wear that broomstick skirt and white blouse." There are differences there, somtimes subtle but there. Just an old farts two cents, Stefan

Maxwell67 -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 9:32:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark but one can only answer that on a personal level in all honesty. It would be a mistake to think that just because she is submissive to you and you were able to nurture that and bring it out in her, doesn't make her anymore submissive to another person - which in essence is what IM is trying to get across(I believe). Alright I acknowledge that what the word means to me is subjective and what it means to you is also subjective and in truth it is all subjective. But you can say what you are saying about happiness or love or any other of the multitude of subjective experiences each of us has. I, on the other hand, am describing submission.

RCdc -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 9:51:29 AM)
I don't know if I am just misunderstanding you. I have looked back at the initial posts and I am trying hard to see if I am. If I am not, then I have to disagree with you Maxwell. I may be coming cross as argumentative (or condecending[:D]) but you are defining submission from your subjective POV and as it relates to your girl, as wonderful as that is. Submission defined literally means to submit, yield to a stronger power. Nothing more than that. Whether the yielding is wanted to be done or not, holds no relevancy. Wearing a butt plug which she does or doesn't enjoy doing because you tell her to is not submission. Wearing a butt plug which she does or doesn't enjoy doing because she is yielding to your authority and believing you know best whilst trying to please you is submission. One is an action (bottoming), one is submission. the.dark.

pullmyhairplease -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 11:24:30 AM)
My outlook on what is submissive is that it is a need. An overwhelming uncontrollable feeling that you just cannot ignore. You want and need to serve Him/Her make them happy to the best of your capabilities. It is inside your need or wants to be put in place. You need a strong person to put you there. It is something you are born with for sure not something you grown into or something that can be forced. It comes so natural that it is like breathing.

Missokyst -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 11:36:46 AM)
There you go. I was effectively my ex husbands servant. I got up when he wanted food, I had sex when he demanded it (including a bj in the hospital after I had my first child), I complied. But I was not his submissive. I did not feel submissive to him. I felt.. trapped. I felt as if the only way to make my life easier was to just do it. I did it so I wouldnt hear him yelling at me, or looming over me in anger. I did it so that the incidences of his following me out to continue his tirade in public would not show me to be a fool for putting up with it. I complied because I couldn't see any other way. But I was not his submissive. With my first dominant.. I had a need that was beyond my ability to resist, to give him what ever he wanted. Sex, food, a shoulder, a brain, a driver, anything, everything that was in my power to give. There is a need when you submit, to be what ever they need if it is your power. It isn't some act, some sacrifice in doing something you dont want to do. It is not an action. It is a feeling, or a need to give it over because there is no other choice. At least it has been in my experience. <g> plus... I have rarely found engaging my wet spots as an unpleasant thing. LOL tell me I have to dislike it.. probably not going to happen! Kyst

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 11:51:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Maxwell67 It is funny, isn't it, that so often the more proficiency one has with a language the harder it is to construct a way to say 'exactly' what you mean? If we had not so innoculated (inculcated? indoctrinated?? All those words help express this thought, but they have different meanings.. ain't language grand?) ourselves against miscommunication in the things we said, do you think it would be any easier to communicate? I suppose we could try expressing things poetically (impressionistically?) I wonder if that would make things clearer or just muddy things up more. Hmmm.. Well it might be fun to try. It is not as if this conversation will ever end. Edited to insert whimsy... um... what were we talking about again? ~following Maxwell's OT~ Over the years, I think I've come to realize that, no matter how many words we have, people will still keep creating new language to try to express the "unexpressable" -- and we won't be any better at it than we have been, because the thing is... it's "unexpressable" -- imponderable -- profound beyond words. I don't think trimming our language would help. We've already done that. As someone who loves words, I can tell you that there are hundreds of thousands of words that we -used- to use, but that we don't use any more. There are also thousands of words that still exist, but the number of people who know what they mean is dwindling so quickly that we may not have them in another generation, like one of my favorites -- "ostend"... which mean "to understand. to grasp the profound" -- and such an obscure word that it doesn't even appear in all but the largest unabridged dictionaries anymore... but you can find a city named Ostend in Finland, I think. I wonder if they're any more capable of understanding than we are. I think human beings are incredibly creative, with a grasp of the enormity of their existence. Unless they reach a point where the poets fade and our language returns to hand-signs and grunts, we will continue to try to express ourselves, as hollow as the effort may seem at times. When I no longer need this physical form, I hope that I get to go somewhere else where ideas can take form like words. Merry Meet, Calla

elleelisa -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/6/2008 12:01:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zhouwuatsien It's obvious. Being Submissive is being a "dirty little daddy's slut" while being "peed on, whilst forced to eat poop" and to "take it from animals". "To be treated in a completely derogatory manner" and to be beaten and raped. A lot. Sometimes both at the same time, or all ten at the same time. Which takes skill. It also means you have to cut off all your hair like Britney Spears. And you also have to do the housework, and cook dinner. Naked. With hot irons on your nipples. Which are pierced. Every day. I got all my knowledge from "REAL DOMINANTS" from the website. As a young dominant, all spongy for information. That's what I've learned. Man, I can't wait till I'm 50 to treat my human slave as a derogatory shit eating sex toy with no will of her own. That's better than Oreo Cheesecake. woah..... If that's what being submissive is "all about" then count me out. [8\|] And I've never had Oreo Cheesecake, but I don't think I'd like it (to complicated). Maybe if you had a slab of real, authentic New York Cheesecake you'd have different notions.

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