RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (Full Version)

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LuckyAlbatross -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/7/2008 10:19:22 AM)

To me the answer to the OP is simple- as Nueva pointed out, it's not about the "act" at all, it's about the motivation, the intent, and, as always, who has the authority.

I've posted it several times through the years here but to me a submissive is simply "One who is fulfilled in their personal intimate relationships by transferring authority in an ongoing basis to another who accepts and takes responsibility for that authority."

Anything else is just personal preference.



leadership527 -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/7/2008 10:56:13 AM)

OK, this is still a great thread.

At this point, I'm going to chime in. 

Max:  Just so you know, I started out in your headspace... that you can't really SEE the submission until there's some resistance to obeying the command to start with.  I get that viewpoint.  But D&D's post #26ish convinced me that I was pretty much totally wrong on that.  I'm always a huge believer in getting down to the core.  My wife, some time ago, used the following analogy for our M/s relationship.  In her words, "It's like we're taking a road trip somewhere.  It's your job to drive the car and it's my job to put gas in the tank."  I've found this a very useful analogy although, like all analogies, not 100% perfect.  In this analogy, if I, the driver, turn the steering wheel and the car turns smoothly and easily, then what difference does it make whether it turned onto a 4 lane superhighway or a rutted and tracked gravel road?  All that matters is I wanted the car to turn and it did.  In the end, is that not the most core view of it?  My will carried the day, ergo I was in charge.

MercnBeth:  Great job on subdividing the different aspects of submission that people refer to.  I would say that people are going to be some random combination of those three things... typically all wrapped up in some sort of convoluted package as us humans are wont to be.  I would say that all three of those categories (personality, relationship, and sexual) all apply to my wife -- the first in general and the last two vis-a-vis her relationshpi with me.

Insofar as the various "personality traits" that people have mentioned, my opinion is that for the most part these are motivations for submission, not submission itself.  For instance, it is certainly a strong part of the motivation for my wife to submit that she desires to be pleasing to me.  In her own words, "I always know what to do now to get it right.  I'm never going to cook a dinner that goes unappreciated because it wasn't what you wanted.  It's like spinning the wheel and coming up a winner every time."  That's one of the reasons she submits, but not the submission itself.  I would certainly agree that you can line up a few of these commonly mentioned traits and if you see them represented in someone, that's a tipoff that they might be submissive or might do well as a submissive.  But it really doesn't tell you whether they want to or not.



Maxwell67 -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/7/2008 12:51:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67
As applied to a member of a couple engaged in D/s or M/s practices:  One who is willing to act in a way (or allow actions to be done to them) they would normally refuse to act/allow because the desire to please their partner overpowers whatever unpleasentness was attached to the action in question.

It may not work for everyone but that is how I view it.

Edited to that the willingness clause.. it really is more attitude than action.

But I've seen dominants and masters willing to act in ways they would normally not allow because they want to please their partner or make the relationship more fulfilling ultimately.  They do it all the time.  Heck *I* do it quite regularly.

Oh darn...  darn, darn, darn, darn, darn... that is true.   Well, back to the drawing board. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
But D&D's post #26ish convinced me that I was pretty much totally wrong on that.  I'm always a huge believer in getting down to the core.

Went back and looked at that post and I have to agree.  I must have just skimmed it the first time.  Thanks for pointing it out again.

I suppose it is just one of those beautiful and transcendent concepts that I am going to have to spend a long time trying understand since I am not among those who really feel it.  I only know when it had made itself apparent to me in it's least subtle form through her actions that even after all this time, it still makes me a little giddy.



yourMissTress -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/7/2008 1:44:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx
So what IS submissive?

It was always my impression that being submissive involved doing things your partner wanted you to do which you would not normally want to do.  Hopefully, because the desire to please your partner overpowered whatever unpleasentness was attached to the task at hand.


So if I submit only to the activities I enjoy and wish to do, that isn't submission?
 
the.dark.


Yes.  Exactly correct.  If you submit only to what you choose to submit to, you are not submitting.



Missokyst -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/7/2008 2:11:56 PM)

I feel I should roll my eyes but so many people said what I believe already, it is pointless to disagree.
It is, what it is, if you need to believe it.
It is what is it for me, because I believe it.
Kyst



burntcynder -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/9/2008 4:07:02 AM)


Ok this being my first post in the forums please excuse me if I don’t wax very philosophical … In my mind there are 2 points to define here “submissive” and “His/Her submissive” The first can be found in the dictionary, however the second only in the heart and mind of the one who is Dominant.



DMFParadox -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/12/2008 2:35:23 AM)

This is really not hard.

The greediest, meanest, most charismatic, toughest bastards and bitches for hundreds of thousands of years got the girl.  Or the guy.  Usually (though not always.) Hell, they got the large harem of girls until the last thousand years of civilization gradually made that a no-no.  To a limited extent, they still do.

Having an emotional disposition towards wanting the situations that a greedy and mean bastard will put you in is in some cases a sucessful strategy for finding and breeding with a successful mate. Thus, submissiveness.

It may not feel like it's tied to sexuality sometimes, but it is always, always tied to sexuality.  Subs are subs because their momma being a sub got their momma a better lay.  And some subs are easy as cake to please because being easy is a good strategy... sometimes.  And other subs are complicated and picky because THAT got them the better man.  And some women are dominant because that allowed them to adapt, survive and breed in situations where a submissive woman would fall apart.  Same for men.

Take that concept and define it as a range instead of black-and-white, with thousands of maybes and what-ifs, and you find something that looks exactly like human sexuality as a whole; and culture, and psychology, individually and collectively.

If you can't accept that, well, you're arguing with a callous bastard who really doesn't care what you think unless it benefits me.  Plus, I'm right.  So take it, and send your admission fees for the tutelage C/O paypal.



RCdc -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/12/2008 2:59:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx
So what IS submissive?

It was always my impression that being submissive involved doing things your partner wanted you to do which you would not normally want to do.  Hopefully, because the desire to please your partner overpowered whatever unpleasentness was attached to the task at hand.


So if I submit only to the activities I enjoy and wish to do, that isn't submission?
 
the.dark.


Yes.  Exactly correct.  If you submit only to what you choose to submit to, you are not submitting.



That answer isn't relevant to the question I asked so please do not try to manipulate it.
Of course choosing what you submit to isn't submission persay.  I believe most people find that pretty clear.
But if a dominant wants to thrash a submissive with a flogger and she submits to it, just because she is a masochist and will enjoy the pain, you are saying that negates the submission?  So every time someone submits to your whipping them, or foot worship - just because they may enjoy that particular activit because they are a foot fetishist or masochist, they aren't submitting?  That having sex when you say, even though they may enjoy having sex, isn't submission.  That controlled orgasm when they enjoy the sensation of cumming isn't submission?
Submission isn't about what you like and don't like, it is the intent behind the act.
 
the.dark.



Maxwell67 -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/12/2008 8:01:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
But if a dominant wants to thrash a submissive with a flogger and she submits to it, just because she is a masochist and will enjoy the pain, you are saying that negates the submission?  So every time someone submits to your whipping them, or foot worship - just because they may enjoy that particular activit because they are a foot fetishist or masochist, they aren't submitting?  That having sex when you say, even though they may enjoy having sex, isn't submission.  That controlled orgasm when they enjoy the sensation of cumming isn't submission?
Submission isn't about what you like and don't like, it is the intent behind the act.

Oh!  I think I see the disonnect here in our conversation... I never meant for what I wrote to be about like and dislike.. it is about what you would do or not do.  Mine likes the pain I give her, but she would not allow anyone else to hurt her like I do.  For that matter, if someone else told her to do something she would likely have done anyway, she may refuse, simply because she won't give that person the satisfaction of THINKING they impressed their will on her.  It is more than her love of pain, more than  the knowledge that it pleases me,  more than her trust in me.  It is all those things and my own dominance. Without that she would never submit.  I have to impress my will upon her or it does not happen.  I do not have to constantly dominate her in order for her to serve.. once I have made the impression she, ummm.. stays 'pressed'.. I guess you could call that training. So perhaps what I have meant to say is that in order to submit, there must be something to submit to.. one must be dominated in order to submit.. otherwise it is just serving, or voluntary kink.





Missokyst -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/12/2008 5:24:58 PM)

Whew.. thanks for the clarification.  I think the problem I have with the idea that submission is only submission if you are submitting to something you dont like is that, it lends itself to disposable people.  Once your submissive wants to please you, enjoys what you do, it shouldnt mean there is no more challenge or role intact.  I hate to think that we are disposable simply because we enjoy everthing you dominants present to us.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
But if a dominant wants to thrash a submissive with a flogger and she submits to it, just because she is a masochist and will enjoy the pain, you are saying that negates the submission?  So every time someone submits to your whipping them, or foot worship - just because they may enjoy that particular activit because they are a foot fetishist or masochist, they aren't submitting?  That having sex when you say, even though they may enjoy having sex, isn't submission.  That controlled orgasm when they enjoy the sensation of cumming isn't submission?
Submission isn't about what you like and don't like, it is the intent behind the act.

Oh!  I think I see the disonnect here in our conversation... I never meant for what I wrote to be about like and dislike.. it is about what you would do or not do.  Mine likes the pain I give her, but she would not allow anyone else to hurt her like I do.  For that matter, if someone else told her to do something she would likely have done anyway, she may refuse, simply because she won't give that person the satisfaction of THINKING they impressed their will on her.  It is more than her love of pain, more than  the knowledge that it pleases me,  more than her trust in me.  It is all those things and my own dominance. Without that she would never submit.  I have to impress my will upon her or it does not happen.  I do not have to constantly dominate her in order for her to serve.. once I have made the impression she, ummm.. stays 'pressed'.. I guess you could call that training. So perhaps what I have meant to say is that in order to submit, there must be something to submit to.. one must be dominated in order to submit.. otherwise it is just serving, or voluntary kink.






tuff2break -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/12/2008 7:05:30 PM)

to me, submission isn't about what you do, how you do it or any of that. it's the exchange of power between your partner and yourself. whatever your expression of submission is, if it works for you and your partner, it's right. it could be doing something you don't like, it could be doing something you love, it just doesn't matter. if you and your partner are fulfilled by your exchange, whatever that exchange is, then it's right... for you....

peace, everyone, we're all on the same side



Deliena -> RE: ok, then what IS submissive? (8/17/2008 12:18:05 PM)

What tuff2break said!  Nicely put



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