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RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 9:28:03 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		As a DM, I would have been all over that guy.  Red means STOP.  Not end the scene entirely, maybe but STOP and regroup. 

When I was teaching, we taught the wee ones never to yell out HELP when they were playing unless they really NEEDED it.  Crying wolf is a bad habit, and that gal on the bottom is not helping her future play. 

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 9:40:04 AM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline 		Another reason I am not interested in public play. You have to structure your activities so that total strangers understand what you are doing.

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 9:53:58 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		As Erin said, usually at public parties there are rules clearly stating what safe words are in use at the party and what each of them signifies.

Even if I were using safe words, no one single word would denote that it was all over right at that very second. 

I'd be concerned that they were teaching the girl that safewords were more guide words and that it might cause confusion when playing with others, but obviously you didn't have a serious enough problem with it to go to the DM/host and ask for guidance so it obviously wasn't that abhorrent in appearances.

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RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 10:37:21 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		The way I see is that you have the right not to use safewords and you have the right to use them. Either way works as long as everyone is happy and comfortable.

But if you agreed to stop play at a particular word or phrase, be it "Red" or "STOP MOTHERFUCKER" and you don't stop... well you just broke your word and I wouldn't regard you as safe to play with. But stop doesn't have to mean stop completely. It may mean "Stop I want to talk" and if they want to use red for "Stop let's talk" and the DMs are fine with that more power to them. As LA said, you weren't concerned enough to alert the DMs so she was probably fine and just using the words a bit oddly.

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RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 10:54:31 AM   
porcelain26


Posts: 181
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: offline 		I can understand how something like this would be disturbing to watch (this is one of the turn off's I have about public play), but I do agree with everyone who's saying you weren't part of their negotiations, so we really don't know what was intended by the use of the safewords. Is it at all possible that the girl was so new, the dominant had given her safewords that were intended to direct the scene so that she had a good experience?

Safewords can be tricky as they mean many different things to many different people. I knew a Domme who boasted about giving different subs safewords that were extremely difficult to remember so that it took longer for them to safeword out of a scene (you should have seen the looks on peoples faces at this declaration); I knew a dom who, regardless of the sub he was playing with, always said the only safeword he wanted to hear was "Green" meaning everything was okay, if something was wrong, he simply wanted the girl to tell him in specifics "Please don't hit that spot again", "Please use something different" etc. In my own relationship, yellow has always stood to mean I was afraid, confused, disturbed, or not okay with what was going on, and to signal to my Owner that I needed help (taking into consideration that play with others in private is something we enjoy, and this is an easy way for me to 'freak out' without  having to REALLY freak out); for us, red has always meant that I not only want out of the scene, but out of the relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 11:03:39 AM   
swooshieone


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/4/2008
Status: offline 		Thinking safewords and a public play space.....hmmm
Most of know Red means stop....Stop as in go no further.
Stop as in hey Mr/s. Dungeon Monitor, I need help here.
So, if the couple had indeed negotiated something else...well in my humble opinion they should have found some different wording. Otherwise they put the people around them in an awkward position. Do we stop the scene or not?
Dungeon ettiquette swings both ways.

vee

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 11:27:58 AM   
straygirl


Posts: 4
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline 		I think that when you decide to play in public you need to consider  in some degree the fact that you are now involving other people.  Red is the standard safeword at every club I've ever been to indicating the bottom's desire for a stop to the scene, ( other than one which insists on 'safeword' itself so that their DM's can be sure ) You can decide whether or not it's a permanent stop but I don't think there's much doubt that most of us think red means stop everything right now! Considering this, along with the number of times I've seen here, on  other sites and in numerous books I've read I think most people would agree to that definition.

People can play however they like, it's up to the Top or DM to stop a scene, not the audience but I feel that if you're going to use the stoplight system of safewords you should, in order to avoid confusion, use the acknowledged definitions of the words.

This girl may have problems in the future with Tops not as understanding as the ones she was playing with that night.  The new Top being mentored should never have cause to disbelieve or not act upon a safeword. Other new bottoms may be confused as to how safewords are to be used.

I don't agree that because we as an audience don't know of any previous discussion, we should overlook this behavior. There is a standard definition to these words in our communities; if the people involved wanted to change that for their own reasons they could have played privately or chosen other words to use.

They chose to play publicly and as such have a certain degree of responsibility.  In this day and age when safety ( ohmygod, am I taking on a safety police attitude...say it can't be so!! ) is so often discussed, ad nauseum it seems, I think people should be conscious of this and not present a situation that may confuse or worry others . If you don't know your partner well enough to communicate throughout a scene and have to resort to safewords then use them properly!

..and no, I'm not a big believer in safewords, seems to me knowing your partner is a much more viable solution than calling out colors.

stray

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 11:39:54 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: swooshieone

Thinking safewords and a public play space.....hmmm
Most of know Red means stop....Stop as in go no further.
Stop as in hey Mr/s. Dungeon Monitor, I need help here.
So, if the couple had indeed negotiated something else...well in my humble opinion they should have found some different wording. Otherwise they put the people around them in an awkward position. Do we stop the scene or not?
Dungeon ettiquette swings both ways.

vee


Exactly. What people have to understand is that when you are playing in a public space, the rules of that public space supercede the rules of your arrangement/relationship. If the the rule of that public dungeon is that "the stoplight code" will be the recognized safeword code...I don't care if your normal safeword is "fuzzy bananas"...that's NOT your safeword in THAT space. Unless you have specifically cleared such a deviation from the rules with the DM's and people in charge they will not not respond when you start hollering "fuzzy bananas". The same goes for if you are using the word "red" with the intention of it meaning something other than the universally recognized definition. It means "stop", so if you say it and you mean something else by it, don't be surprised or offended when a DM does step in. Their space, their rules.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 8/10/2008 11:41:05 AM >

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RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 12:59:57 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Clubs I've been to make it clear that safewords are not to be ignored. Imagine the position they would be in if 'Red' were repeatedly ignored and the sub dropped dead, or had to be taken to the hospital in an ambulance...

I would very much insist that they explain to any member who asked, why they did not enforce such a policy. 

As pointed out, there could be a very good, but not apparent reason, or it could have been lax enforcement, or it could be a club that just doesn't care... I would certainly find out which before I set foot in there again.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 1:09:16 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility
Another reason I am not interested in public play. You have to structure your activities so that total strangers understand what you are doing.

Absolutely agreed!  We do what we do in the intimate setting of our own home without an audience of strangers and therefore there are no misinterpretations, confused critiques and Monday-morning quarterbacking.  We just don't desire the distractions or the drama.

That said, please please please don't anyone take that as a slam if you happen to love public playing.  It is only part of a truthful answer about why WE don't like it.  No aspersions being cast here at all................luci

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RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 2:51:24 PM   
DavidS8ist


Posts: 97
Joined: 7/8/2004
From: NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

  1. <snip>



As you all know (or maybe not) lol, i am not an advocate of safe words, i don't use them. But i will stand up for those who do and for their right to use them. The right to have them adhered to, and not ignored as was done in this case.

Edited for bad spelling and really bad grammar.


I'm commending myself for reading all 30 posts prior to throwing in 2 cents no one needs or wants, but here goes anyway.  And by the way, everyone made very good, compelling arguments supporting their positions.

She didn't die?  If not, then what's the issue?

Yeah, yeah, she had a safe word, she used it, he didn't stop, yadda yadda.  Did she die?  Was she disfigured?  Were EMT's called in?  Was the top/dominant/demigod in control of the situation or was she?  Which one had the most experience, the better vantage point from which to judge what her condition was and how to proceed?  Which one *should* be in control, *should* evaluate the bottom's situation, *should* decide whether or not to continue?

She was new, was she?  Hmmm, experienced top, new person with a safe word....which one do *I* think makes the better evaluation??

I'm not going to argue against safe words here.  I've done it elsewhere, it'll come up on another thread, I'm sure.   I'll merely say that they're only effective with someone with whom you don't need a safe word, someone in control, someone who knows whether or not the person is really in distress or not.  Someone intent on harming you will do it if you scream out ROY G. BIV until you're dead.

The only safe word that matters is the one uttered by the guy with the paddles:  CLEAR!

Don't make too much of it.  It was a small party with someone on top who evidently knew what he was doing.  She walked away from it so it must have been a good landing.

Someone on an e-list today said the only safe word she believed in was "trust".  Either you have it or you don't interact with the other person.

Makes a world of sense to me.

D.
Age quod agis.

(in reply to missturbation)
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RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 4:50:47 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Nope I wouldn't. It's the house rules usualy not to  interefear with scenes , so I wouldn't just walk right into someone's sceen and begin addressing them had I clearly seen him ignoreing safe words, plus you never know he could react violently and try to harm me.

I also believe new or not it's your job to enforce the command to stop if you give it, and if you don't it's your fault stuff you don't want continues to go on, and if you're so new you don't know enough that you have the right to call a halt to it all and enforce your words, then you shouldn't be playing in the first place.

I would however go tell a dungeon moniter, and if the Dm's didn't step in I wouldn't continue going to the place, Because I would doubt in my opinion that it was a safe place to play, because should something happen and I need help and it's clear I do an no DM's come to assist, Then that's a failing in the overal job of keeping the space safe for every one..
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation


Last night i went to a small club with friends. There was only about 14 or 15 people there, so it made observation of scenes very easy. By easy i mean it was pretty quiet, hard to miss what was being said and views of scenes were unobstructed.
There was what appeared to be a fairly new to the scene submissive playing with a dom, who i would say was probably pretty experienced.

Several times during the play which lasted a good few hours in total, the sub safe worded.

Several times the sub 'ambered'. The dom would 'say do you mean that', she would say 'yes'. Ok, so you would think time for a little discussion, change of intensity, change of implement, position? Nope after hearing 'yes' he just carried on.
 
 

The sub then cries 'red'. Does the dom stop? Yes, very briefly and then again just carries on. This happened several times.
My issues here are as follows.....

  1. If you are going to use safe words, surely they should be used properly.
    If amber means stop and lets talk about it a second surely that is what should be done. If red means stop, scene over again surely it is what should be done?


  3. Why did the DM's not step in? They clearly heard her safe word just as my friends and i did!

  4. How about those watching the scene? You hear a sub 'red', do you step in and say 'hey she just asked for the scene to stop, now stop?'. I know if it had been my friend who had 'redded' i would be straight in there.


< Message edited by YourhandMyAss -- 8/10/2008 4:55:27 PM >

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RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 4:59:53 PM   
HarryVanWinkle


Posts: 1720
Joined: 5/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Why did the DM's not step in? They clearly heard her safe word just as my friends and i did!

  1. How about those watching the scene? You hear a sub 'red', do you step in and say 'hey she just asked for the scene to stop, now stop?'. I know if it had been my friend who had 'redded' i would be straight in there.

I don't know about other clubs.  At Desert Dominion, upon clearly hearing "Red," the DM would have stopped the scene.  If I were there and the DM didn't, I would have relieved the DM (being the Head DM, I can do that) and stopped the scene myself.  If I were not there and the DM didn't stop the scene, either one of the Governing Council members present would have stopped the scene or members of the "peanut gallery" would have.

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RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 5:06:27 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		I wouldn't nessisarily agree, You let the host and the dungeon moniters know and fuck what any other strangers think.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

Another reason I am not interested in public play. You have to structure your activities so that total strangers understand what you are doing.

(in reply to Evility)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 5:15:03 PM   
abcbsex


Posts: 478
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
The same goes for if you are using the word "red" with the intention of it meaning something other than the universally recognized definition. It means "stop", so if you say it and you mean something else by it, don't be surprised or offended when a DM does step in. Their space, their rules.

I don't use safewords myself. I'd rather ask for some time in plain english or look into Alpha's eyes and ask him to please stop (it's a bit diferrent than "ow! mother fucker! stop!"), but if I needed it, i'd yell red and if it wasn't taken seriously there would be a problem. It's just that universal to me, it's not even a safeword but something I see as a distress signal. Naturally if I saw someone in a public space, or if I was playing in public and someone used red, people will get uncomfortable, as they should. I don't think it should be taken lightly either, especially be the DMs.

edited to add that he agrees with me about red, it's his universal safeword as well. It might have sounded like he didn't have an opinion about it from my original comments


< Message edited by abcbsex -- 8/10/2008 5:18:18 PM >

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RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 5:18:17 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		As a DM, it doesn't matter to me what the final outcome was (no loss of limb, life, etc.).  A safeword was called, play stops.  If I'm not clear on what is going on (or play doesn't stop), then I'm going to step in.  And I would never agree to a "no safeword play" during a regular play party for any participant.  


Cali


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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 5:34:39 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss
I wouldn't necessarily agree, You let the host and the dungeon monitors know and fuck what any other strangers think.


That's great when it works and when some idiot does not take matters into his own hands. I know of at least one instance at The Mark in Nashville where a spectator stepped in because he felt things were going too far and it ended up in a minor fist fight. Seems to me that it's safer to play without spectators. If you really have to have that St. Andrew's Cross at your disposal to have a good time... well, ok. Whatever.



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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 5:44:13 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abcbsex

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
The same goes for if you are using the word "red" with the intention of it meaning something other than the universally recognized definition. It means "stop", so if you say it and you mean something else by it, don't be surprised or offended when a DM does step in. Their space, their rules.

I don't use safewords myself. I'd rather ask for some time in plain english or look into Alpha's eyes and ask him to please stop (it's a bit diferrent than "ow! mother fucker! stop!"), but if I needed it, i'd yell red and if it wasn't taken seriously there would be a problem. It's just that universal to me, it's not even a safeword but something I see as a distress signal. Naturally if I saw someone in a public space, or if I was playing in public and someone used red, people will get uncomfortable, as they should. I don't think it should be taken lightly either, especially be the DMs.

edited to add that he agrees with me about red, it's his universal safeword as well. It might have sounded like he didn't have an opinion about it from my original comments



I hear what you're saying because I don't use safewords either...but I also understand that if I am in a public play space and their recognized safe word is "red"...that is the only word that I can expect will bring me any help if it is needed. Ow! Motherfucker...while it may draw a few giggles from the crowd, especially the sadists...will not get the attention of a DM.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 5:58:03 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility
That's great when it works and when some idiot does not take matters into his own hands. I know of at least one instance at The Mark in Nashville where a spectator stepped in because he felt things were going too far and it ended up in a minor fist fight. Seems to me that it's safer to play without spectators. If you really have to have that St. Andrew's Cross at your disposal to have a good time... well, ok. Whatever.


I wouldn't categorically judge the "safety" factor or dismiss all public play by one isolated incident.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Evility)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/10/2008 6:02:18 PM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline 		FR

All posts describing the scene considered, I have to agree with those that have said repeatedly that it seems clear you didn't know what had been negotiated beforehand, nor (since they heard red and didn't step in) what the DM's had been alerted to expect.

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(in reply to mistoferin)
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