RE: Ignoring Safe Words...........

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RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/14/2008 4:58:31 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu
Trust in and of itself isn't always the issue, though. My current lover/top/prospective Dom is my best friend and I trust him more than almost anyone. But we're still thinking about starting to use safewords. Not because I think he might do something horrid and non-consensual to me, of course. It's because I get incoherant during play and have a hard time explaining that there's a problem, and because he's too new to often be able to know when I really need it to slow down and when Im just whining (without us having a full-blown conversation, which is more disruptive to the scene than a "that's too intense, back off a bit" yellow, which you can roll with).

My belief on you writing this? You both shouldn;t even contemplate playing in a way that gets you to the place that makes you incoherant yet if this is your decision.

Where the hell is that wall, though...ah, here it is -

the.dark.

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Post #: 81

RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/14/2008 5:02:57 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidS8ist
A top needs to learn the reactions of a bottom and *not* wait for a distress call.

D.

And a bottom/s-type etc shouldn't rely on a safeword unless they know the dominant/top will stop regardless of whether they use it or not.

A safeword is ony as good as the person using it. A dominant/top should be played with when you know that you are 'safe'(generic word term) even if you can't use it.

the.dark.

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Post #: 82

RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/14/2008 5:16:54 AM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidS8ist

If folks believe someone claiming to be dominant should be in control, then dammit, BE IN CONTROL. And pull the damned plug if there's the slightest doubt. It's not a contest to see how much a bottom can take or how much a top can dish out. Whether the interaction is about catharsis or sex or fun or punishment or just shits and grins, it shouldn't be about irresponsibility.

A top needs to learn the reactions of a bottom and *not* wait for a distress call.

D.

*sighs* ... this is in fact what we were arguing for, and shocked to see *not* happening.

Neither missturbation nor myself use safewords because we play with people who are *very* experienced Tops (whether in their relationship with us they be play partners, Dominants or Owners) who have no need of a safe word or alarm bell to signal when we are in trouble. I am often shocked at how well one of my casual play patners reads me, but she is watching for things I don't even realise I am doing. I don't need a safeword with her, and so its not an issue.

The situation in the OP was riddled with doubt, riddled with examples of irresponsibility. New bottom, questionably experienced Top teaching another brand new Top the ropes (less said about the blind leading the blind the better) constant use of Red should in my mind have equalled a complete stop, a conversation about what and how things were going, and then *perhaps* a play on.

I hope you see now that we were not having a debate about the usefulness of safewords per se, but that in this instance having the safe word ignored*could have* resulted in serious harm, or *could have* set a possibly dangerous precedent for the future both of which are highly irresponsible.

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Post #: 83

RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/14/2008 5:18:18 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
If you are going to use safe words, surely they should be used properly.

Depends on the people - it is subjective hun.

quote:

If amber means stop and lets talk about it a second surely that is what should be done. If red means stop, scene over again surely it is what should be done?

Depends on the people and what has been discussed. It's really easy to second guess others interactions.

quote:

If you are mentoring a new top, what kind of example is ignoring safe words to set?

I have always maintained that safewords are pointless.

quote:

If you are playing with a new or fairly new or hell even an experienced sub, safe words should not be ignored.

Again, depends on the negociation of those involved.

quote:

Why would you give them and then ignore them? It's just not safe in any way shape or form!

Because safe is subjective.

quote:

Why did the DM's not step in? They clearly heard her safe word just as my friends and i did!

Because DM's make mistakes? I cannot answer for all DMs but my experience and thought is that DM's are there not to protect people. I never understand people who rely on DMs just because they are DMs.

quote:

How about those watching the scene? You hear a sub 'red', do you step in and say 'hey she just asked for the scene to stop, now stop?'. I know if it had been my friend who had 'redded' i would be straight in there.

I wouldn't get involved - in the same way as if they didn't safeword and there was blood dripping down their shoulders. Friends are a different kettle of fish however. If they are good friends and you already know them well enough to step in, then you may do. But be aware of the fall out. Personally I have been and am in situations where I would tell someone what I think is best, but I don't always because I'm not them, particularly if they are owned.

quote:

What kind of example does it set to possible other newbies watching the scene? What impression of the lifestyle does it give?

I am not into coddling anyone. If they are sensible, then they ask and I would respond with my personal thoughts... but as hard as I sound, I don't really care what impression it gives anyone.

the.dark.

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Post #: 84

RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/14/2008 12:45:04 PM

DavidS8ist

Posts: 97
Joined: 7/8/2004
From: NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

<snip>
The situation in the OP was riddled with doubt, riddled with examples of irresponsibility. New bottom, questionably experienced Top teaching another brand new Top the ropes (less said about the blind leading the blind the better) constant use of Red should in my mind have equalled a complete stop, a conversation about what and how things were going, and then *perhaps* a play on.

I hope you see now that we were not having a debate about the usefulness of safewords per se, but that in this instance having the safe word ignored*could have* resulted in serious harm, or *could have* set a possibly dangerous precedent for the future both of which are highly irresponsible.

And we are more closely in agreement than it would appear. Perhaps it's the generational difference (from your profile it's clear that I have fantasies older than you), perhaps I'm a bit more jaded, but I just don't worry about what "could" happen. That was what provoked my "She didn't die" response earlier. I'll assess a risk, weigh it against potential reward, and make a decision whether or not to proceed. Regardless, I'll carry the weight if something goes wrong.

We worry so very much about what *could* happen, what folks *should* do. Hell, Russia *should* get out of Georgia. There *should* be world peace. Folks into S&M *should* be responsible. If folks agree to use safe words they *should* be respected.

But that simply is *not* the way the world works. Russia's in Georgia, world peace won't happen in my lifetime, S&M folks are as irresponsible as everyone else, and people will lie about respecting your safeword.

And over 30 people stood at their windows in the morning of March 13, 1964 and watched Kitty Genovese get stabbed to death. And not one of them lifted the phone to call the police.

Like it or not, it's human nature to not get involved. That's when each one of us needs to accept our own personal responsibility for choosing to interact with someone else.

I'll make a comment about the situation in one of the posts describing the incident provoking this thread: It was mentioned that the DM's were unavailable during the incident in question. What the hell is the use of having DM's in the first place if they're free to stop monitoring, go off for their own personal enjoyment and leave no one overseeing things? Where's the responsibility in that? It seems to me that that set the tone for ignoring the safe word. If the DM's don't care to watch over things, it's Tombstone or Deadwood all over again.

Which is why I prefer to do S&M in venues that tell folks they're on their own, where there are no DMs, that they'd better be willing to own what they do, that the only credo is that of personal responsibility. I don't like to be monitored like a child.

Age quod agis.

D.
"There's no normal life. There's life. Ya live it!"
- Kevin Jarre, "Tombstone"

But things that *should* be very often aren't.

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Post #: 85

RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/14/2008 1:42:39 PM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidS8ist

And we are more closely in agreement than it would appear. Perhaps it's the generational difference (from your profile it's clear that I have fantasies older than you), perhaps I'm a bit more jaded, but I just don't worry about what "could" happen.

You are more than certainly right. I am of an age and mindset that I look for what could be rather that just what is. I still work in a world of possibility and hope for change, and I don't ever want to give that up.

*winks* nice patronising line about the fantasies being older than me by the way, gotta love that

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Post #: 86

RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/14/2008 4:02:26 PM

DavidS8ist

Posts: 97
Joined: 7/8/2004
From: NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

*winks* nice patronising line about the fantasies being older than me by the way, gotta love that

Not patronising, merely an observation of reality. But better to be looking down to see the grass than looking up, n'est-ce pas?

;)
D.

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Post #: 87

RE: Ignoring Safe Words........... - 8/20/2008 10:46:00 AM

SuchAGirl

Posts: 27
Joined: 8/3/2008
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What a shame! I believe it is people that ignore safe words that can give vanilla public a misperception of what BDSM is really about.

I have heard other Dom/Domme say they sometimes ignore safewords to explore subs limits and push them farther then they have imagined before.

I say the key to a truely satisfying experience to both Domme and sub is to respect limits. As a Domme I have the gift of control over my play partner and take thier well being as first concern.

- Lady J

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Post #: 88