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Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF ... - 8/13/2008 10:48:27 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_impassioned_president

TBILISI, Georgia - It was a claim that could have provoked a dangerous Kremlin response: The United States is readying to take over airports and ports in the former Soviet republic of Georgia.

The claim, by U.S.-backed Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili on Wednesday was swiftly shot down by officials in Washington, who denied any such designs on Georgian soil.

Yet, it was the latest in a string of overstated pronouncements by the American-educated Georgian leader that are further fueling tensions with Moscow.

His comments — along with a stream of biased, conflicting and often false information coming from both Russian and Georgian officials — have made it hard to figure out what is really happening in the world's latest hotspot."

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 12:08:22 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Certainly Georgia have been the architects of their own downfall. Next door is a bit of a wild dog and wanting to bite its neighbour's legs so its best not to poke it. Georgia didn't just poke it, they left the gate open too.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:38:16 AM   
Sanity


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It's a bit like a wife beater saying, now look what you made me do.

All her fault...

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Certainly Georgia have been the architects of their own downfall. Next door is a bit of a wild dog and wanting to bite its neighbour's legs so its best not to poke it. Georgia didn't just poke it, they left the gate open too.


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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 5:59:30 AM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		Give him credit for being consistent.
 
Also ... for a good laugh, read his post and his tag line at the bottom, ten times, real fast.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 6:33:12 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		McCain on the Russia/Georgia conflict: "In the XXIst Century, nations don't invade other nations."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/13/mccain-in-the-21st-centur_n_118759.html

Pretty funny, huh  ?

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 6:39:55 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


It's a bit like a wife beater saying, now look what you made me do.

All her fault...

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Certainly Georgia have been the architects of their own downfall. Next door is a bit of a wild dog and wanting to bite its neighbour's legs so its best not to poke it. Georgia didn't just poke it, they left the gate open too.



I'd take you serious Sanity if you didn't believe in thinking it was all right for the USA to invade a sovereign nation and not a neighbour next door but one half a world away to boot!!!!

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 6:43:13 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Give him credit for being consistent.
 
Also ... for a good laugh, read his post and his tag line at the bottom, ten times, real fast.


There is growing evidence that the Georgians did kill quite a few Russia citizens in South Ossetia. Russian willingness to let western observers in sort of suggests they would be more than happy for the west to learn the truth.

If Saddam had been murdering American citizens I wouldn't see a problem with America taking action to prevent it. The Georgians must have known that murdering Russian citizens would get a response.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 6:46:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

McCain on the Russia/Georgia conflict: "In the XXIst Century, nations don't invade other nations."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/13/mccain-in-the-21st-centur_n_118759.html

Pretty funny, huh  ?


  The man is too senile to remember five years ago!

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 6:56:40 AM   
Sanity


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Does the one truly justify the other in your eyes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I'd take you serious Sanity if you didn't believe in thinking it was all right for the USA to invade a sovereign nation and not a neighbour next door but one half a world away to boot!!!!


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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 7:03:47 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		I often hear cons say that might makes right.

That because with have an army and the ability to destroy anyone,we can pretty much do as we want in the world(and screw what France thinks).

I guess the neo-soviets are the new neo-cons.



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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 7:05:37 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

GORI, Georgia - A cease-fire between Georgia and Russia teetered on the verge of collapse Thursday as Russia's foreign minister declared the world "can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity" and new explosions were heard near the strategic Georgian town of Gori despite Moscow's pledges to withdraw.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

McCain on the Russia/Georgia conflict: "In the XXIst Century, nations don't invade other nations."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/13/mccain-in-the-21st-centur_n_118759.html

Pretty funny, huh  ?


  The man is too senile to remember five years ago!


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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 7:15:01 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		The United States and her allies took Iraq from a dictator and are pouring trillions into it to rebuild it, and are in the process of giving it and its oil to the Iraqi people.

Russia is destroying Georgia and taking Georgia from the Georgian people and are giving it to a dictator, promising that its soveriegnity will never be respected.

And I often hear Liberals saying they're all kinds of jiggy with what Russia is doing, and that they hate the United States...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I often hear cons say that might makes right.

That because with have an army and the ability to destroy anyone,we can pretty much do as we want in the world(and screw what France thinks).

I guess the neo-soviets are the new neo-cons.




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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 7:20:04 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Does the one truly justify the other in your eyes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I'd take you serious Sanity if you didn't believe in thinking it was all right for the USA to invade a sovereign nation and not a neighbour next door but one half a world away to boot!!!!

 


That`s not the point.When did two wrongs ever make a right?

We no longer have the moral authority or moral high-ground or leadership,to tell,implore or persuade any nation that does the same thing.

Like Russia!

I doubt neo-cons care about such things as world opinion,holding the moral high-ground,being respected or followed.

They think military action is the answer to all our security needs,and not being a good faith player or agent of peace and stability. It`s "do what we want,or else".<points to dead bodies>

Iraq, knocked us down a few pegs, closer to the neo-soviets and China,etc. and their ways.

If Georgia loses those two territories,this will be a huge foreign policy failure and a possible scandal for McCain and his Georgian lobbyist/aid,Scheunemann.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/12/AR2008081202932.html

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/14/2008 7:32:41 AM >

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 7:32:45 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

GORI, Georgia - A cease-fire between Georgia and Russia teetered on the verge of collapse Thursday as Russia's foreign minister declared the world "can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity" and new explosions were heard near the strategic Georgian town of Gori despite Moscow's pledges to withdraw.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

McCain on the Russia/Georgia conflict: "In the XXIst Century, nations don't invade other nations."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/13/mccain-in-the-21st-centur_n_118759.html

Pretty funny, huh  ?


  The man is too senile to remember five years ago!



If I was you I'd hold your fire Sanity, there seems a growing sense in the media here that the Georgians did provoke Russia by murdering and expelling Russian citizens in South Ossetia.  It appears to take more to provoke Russia than the USA if that is right.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 8:53:19 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Certainly Georgia have been the architects of their own downfall. Next door is a bit of a wild dog and wanting to bite its neighbour's legs so its best not to poke it. Georgia didn't just poke it, they left the gate open too.

It's Georgia's fault that Russia invaded Georgia?

Did Georgia possess at any time in its history Weapons of Mass Destruction? Did Georgia at any time in its history invade neighboring states (South Ossetia is Georgian territory, btw)?

What did Georgia do that was so wrong to Russia? What is Russia's causus belli? Other than its own imperial ambitions, what vital Russian interest is protected by this invasion?

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 8:55:26 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Certainly Georgia have been the architects of their own downfall. Next door is a bit of a wild dog and wanting to bite its neighbour's legs so its best not to poke it. Georgia didn't just poke it, they left the gate open too.


What did Georgia do that was so wrong to Russia? What is Russia's causus belli? Other than its own imperial ambitions, what vital Russian interest is protected by this invasion?


OIL.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 8:55:58 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Certainly Georgia have been the architects of their own downfall. Next door is a bit of a wild dog and wanting to bite its neighbour's legs so its best not to poke it. Georgia didn't just poke it, they left the gate open too.

It's Georgia's fault that Russia invaded Georgia?



It is Georgia's fault if they are guilty of murdering Russian citizens in Ossetia, any other country, including the USA and other western states would do the same to defend its citizens

Oh, and Saddam didn't even have to murder American citizens for the USA to invade Iraq, all that took was a grudge and to be sitting on vital resources that the US wanted direct access to. 

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/14/2008 8:58:15 AM >

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 9:04:20 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Certainly Georgia have been the architects of their own downfall. Next door is a bit of a wild dog and wanting to bite its neighbour's legs so its best not to poke it. Georgia didn't just poke it, they left the gate open too.

It's Georgia's fault that Russia invaded Georgia?



It is Georgia's fault if they are guilty of murdering Russian citizens in Ossetia, any other country, including the USA and other western states would do the same to defend its citizens

Oh, and Saddam didn't even have to murder American citizens for the USA to invade Iraq, all that took was a grudge and to be sitting on vital resources that the US wanted direct access to. 


Saddam never fired at planes enforcing the no-fly zones?

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 9:13:52 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It is Georgia's fault if they are guilty of murdering Russian citizens in Ossetia, any other country, including the USA and other western states would do the same to defend its citizens

Oh, and Saddam didn't even have to murder American citizens for the USA to invade Iraq, all that took was a grudge and to be sitting on vital resources that the US wanted direct access to.

The key word in your statement is "if". That makes it an allegation and not a confirmed fact.

Moreover, I have not seen where Russia took that allegation to the United Nations in the same fashion the US took the case for removing Saddam Hussein.

Further, if the allegation holds true, that allegation still does not justify either the Russian Foreign Minister's presumptuous talk of dismissing Georgia's territorial integrity or their continued violations of the truce/cease fire that is supposed to be in effect.

Russia's actions are far in excess of what would be required to reasonably protect Russian citizens. Even if Georgia is not entirely without sin in this episode, Russia's actions still are indefensible.

Russia should back off, back down, stand down, and pull their troops back to within Russian borders. That is the right thing to do.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 9:32:59 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

What did Georgia do that was so wrong to Russia? What is Russia's causus belli? Other than its own imperial ambitions, what vital Russian interest is protected by this invasion?


South Ossetia has repeatedly declared its desire for secession from Georgia.   That should have rung bells in Tblisi, as its precisely the way they themselves asserted their independence from Moscow. 

At the time Georgia declared independence from the Soviet Union, the S Ossetians formed paramilitary factions to promote their desire to be part of Russia.  (Reminiscent of the pro-gun types in the US today, who want the right to bear arms so as to prevent their government railroading them).  Anyway, they fought the Georgians from the word "go".

To end the fighting, the Russians went in as peacekeepers and have remained there ever since 1991.  Its only as a result of Saakashvili's fawning alliance with Bush - and a consanguinous desire to destabilise Russia in Washington - that the Georgians moved to occupy land whose sovereignty has been hotly disputed since their own independence.

The Russians are not angels but its utterly futile to try and convince an independent observer that they initiated the conflict.  It reminds me a little of how Bismarck brought about German unification, the way in which Putin fooled them into attacking first.  If there was an "evil genius" event in Beijing, he'd win, all ends up.  The Russians can now justify all their actions, including entering Georgia to prevent S. Ossetia's immediate re-occupation.

Oh yeah, and its casus belli, not "causus".

[Mod Note:  TOS violation removed]

Oops, sorry MXI - cl will know it was a joke, we go way back like spinal chords.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 8/14/2008 9:55:49 AM >

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