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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 9:40:10 AM   
celticlord2112


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Status: offline 		And how does any of this change the fact that Russia is in the wrong here?

(And thank you for the spelling correction)

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 9:40:25 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		You are ignoring a huge group of folks that don't want to be part of Georgia or Russia.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 9:44:55 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		A little stuck for an argument there, celtic?

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

And how does any of this change the fact that Russia is in the wrong here?




Jesus wept.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 10:42:16 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
A little stuck for an argument there, celtic?
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
And how does any of this change the fact that Russia is in the wrong here?


Not stuck in the slightest. Russia invaded Georgia. You haven't said a single thing to refute that.

The US made a case in excruciating detail for Iraq. The merits of that case are open to debate and criticism--and there are quite a few criticisms to be levelled, veracity not the least among them--but where has Russia even attempted to make a case?

South Ossetia is, so far as I am aware, recognized as Georgian territory. I am not aware where any nation, including Russia, has recognized South Ossetia as independent. No amount of rationalization is going to alter the fact that Russia is the aggressor nation invading Georgian sovereign territory. No amount of rationalization is going to alter the fact that Russia did not make a prior case to justify this incursion.

Thus Russia is wrong. That is my argument.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 11:11:14 AM   
Sanity


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I'd like to see your evidence of that, if there is any. From what I've been reading I'd have to say that the opposite is true.



quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If I was you I'd hold your fire Sanity, there seems a growing sense in the media here that the Georgians did provoke Russia by murdering and expelling Russian citizens in South Ossetia.  It appears to take more to provoke Russia than the USA if that is right.


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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 11:26:36 AM   
Sanity


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More evidence that Georgians did not provoke Russia by "murdering and expelling Russian citizens in South Ossetia"


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
If I was you I'd hold your fire Sanity, there seems a growing sense in the media here that the Georgians did provoke Russia by murdering and expelling Russian citizens in South Ossetia.  It appears to take more to provoke Russia than the USA if that is right.


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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 2:02:55 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


More evidence that Georgians did not provoke Russia by "murdering and expelling Russian citizens in South Ossetia"


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
If I was you I'd hold your fire Sanity, there seems a growing sense in the media here that the Georgians did provoke Russia by murdering and expelling Russian citizens in South Ossetia.  It appears to take more to provoke Russia than the USA if that is right.



There has been a low intensity war between Georgia and the seperatist areas for years, since the break up of the USSR. What was new was the full frontal assault on South Ossetia by the Georgian army. If the Russians had planned everything why the 16 hour delay in the Russian assault in which claims (with some evidence) of hundreds of South Ossetian civilians killed?

A reporter in the area on German TV said the Russian military is unusually open as though they (the Russians) believe the more the outside world knows of the conflict, the more they will see the justice in Russia's retaliation.

If you notice, the criticism from western politicians isn't that Russia reacted but that they over reacted. That should tell you that even western politicians believe the Russians had a right to react.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/14/2008 2:03:48 PM >

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 2:12:16 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


More evidence that Georgians did not provoke Russia by "murdering and expelling Russian citizens in South Ossetia"



I fail to see how anyone can accept an article by Soviet dissidents as " proof ", anymore than we can accept the Soviet propoganda as proof.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 2:15:19 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Sanity, we will see in the coming weeks who was in the right, the Russians or the Georgians.

Russia said that it was gathering evidence for charges of genocide against Georgia, accusing it of driving 30,000 refugees out of South Ossetia.
 
Georgia responded by filing a case against Russia at the International Court of Justice in the Hague for ethnic cleansing between 1993 and 2008.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4516005.ece

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 2:46:24 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


More evidence that Georgians did not provoke Russia by "murdering and expelling Russian citizens in South Ossetia"



I fail to see how anyone can accept an article by Soviet dissidents as " proof ", anymore than we can accept the Soviet propoganda as proof.



There`s a huge amount of BSing going on.Making it very hard to discern what`s what.


We expect it from the ruskies,but from our friends?From Sen. McBush?

This may well boil down to a Putin/Bush proxy battle with many many innocent people being killed or made into refugees.

This certainly has something to do with it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_re_eu/poland_us_missile_defense

lol


A shield to protect Poland from Iranian missiles???

Jesus,...LOL What a fuck`n crook and no one believes it.

McBush is trying to provoke the ruskies and he just may succeed.If you mess`n with a frick`n flamethrower(Russia),you might get burned.You might also burn down a town or city.



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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 2:58:00 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
McBush is trying to provoke the ruskies and he just may succeed.If you mess`n with a frick`n flamethrower(Russia),you might get burned.You might also burn down a town or city.

So because countries seek to better their defenses, this justifies Russian aggression in Georgia?

That sounds a lot like the wife-beater argument "she made me hit her."

Russia is choosing to send troops not just into South Ossetia, but Abkhazia and other Georgian provinces as well. They are choosing to invade Georgia. I have not read one single news item that has Georgian troops invading sovereign Russian territory.

Whatever justifications Russia might possibly have for their military incursions begin and end in South Ossetia. There is ZERO justification for Russian forces in Georgian territories beyond South Ossetia. Russia is an aggressor nation, invading Georgia without just cause and most assuredly with no valid national security interest at stake.

And yet, by your logic, the evil actor here is not Putin/Russia but a cabal of President Bush and Senator McCain, with Poland as an unwitting shill? That somehow Bush and McCain goaded Putin into invading Georgia?

I do hope I have misapprehended your post. If I have, I do hope you will clarify your meaning.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 2:59:07 PM   
NumberSix


Posts: 1378
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		What I find disheartening, is that because we are so heavily invested in a  'was gonna' war, we are unable to assist meaningfully in the defense of freedom, once again.

6

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:01:43 PM   
Thadius


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Status: offline 		http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598/

They are just protecting Russian citizens......

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:10:56 PM   
BKSir


Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline 		Quite frankly, it's their country, let them deal with their own crap.  We have enough trouble in our own back yard that we're all but ignoring, because Russia and Georgia are doing the same thing they've been doing for decades.  Just as the middle east is doing the same thing they've been doing for centuries, literally.  But, it's far easier for a government, and any other con artist and huckster to point behind you and say "Look at THAT!", as they run off with your wallet, than it is for them to actually work on anything that might bring improvement where it matters.

Don't get me wrong, I wish all this worldwide bullshit would just stop, but, it's not going to.  Not for a long time at least.  But we need to focus on home, not on Russia/Georgia/Pakistan/Israel/North-Central Bumfuckistan...


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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:11:21 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598/

They are just protecting Russian citizens......


I suggest some of these reporters should watch TV, there has been a couple Generals in the field and one big'un from Moscow on TV here explaining Russia's plans and what they are doing and why. You may believe them or believe them not but they seemed quite happy to give full answers to probing and complex questions.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/14/2008 3:12:28 PM >

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:16:33 PM   
NumberSix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

So because countries seek to better their defenses, this justifies Russian aggression in Georgia?



Well, kinda the Iraq argument, kinda the Iran argument, kinda the Palestinian argument, kinda the Poland argument.

Adolph Hitler, et al.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:18:13 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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When did Georgia ever threaten to wipe Russia off the face of the earth though.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

So because countries seek to better their defenses, this justifies Russian aggression in Georgia?



Well, kinda the Iraq argument, kinda the Iran argument, kinda the Palestinian argument, kinda the Poland argument.

Adolph Hitler, et al.


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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:26:12 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


When did Georgia ever threaten to wipe Russia off the face of the earth though.



They didn't but they did threaten to rid Georgia of ethnic Russians.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:28:21 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Cease fires, usually don't have constant bombing going on during them.  Moving 100 tanks, T-72s mind you, further into Georgia doesn't seem like a stand down to me, maybe I am just cynical.  I have been watching live streams on various satelite channels all day.  Just like I watched Putin say he was agreeing to the ceasefire, while I watched paramilitary troops moving through Poti.

Guess I should try watching a Russian news channel?

quote:

POTI, Georgia, Aug 14 (Reuters) - Russian tanks rolled into the Georgian port town of Poti on Thursday, accompanying trucks carrying troops to the port, witnesses said, but Russia denied its forces were there.

"Just a few minutes ago they (Russians) entered Poti in tanks," a Poti shipping agent, Nikoloz Gogoli, said by telephone at about 0900 GMT. "Some of the guys have blue signs, badges, which means they should be peacekeepers."

Asked about the reports, Russia's deputy chief of the general staff, Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said: "There are no Russian armour or troops in the city of Poti now."

Nogovitsyn offered no further comment.


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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:30:50 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Cease fires, usually don't have constant bombing going on during them. 



Oh I don't know, look at Israel.....but Israel is an American allie so they don't count.

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