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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:31:54 PM   
NumberSix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


When did Georgia ever threaten to wipe Russia off the face of the earth though.




When did Iraq? 

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:32:27 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Cease fires, usually don't have constant bombing going on during them. Moving 100 tanks, T-72s mind you, further into Georgia doesn't seem like a stand down to me, maybe I am just cynical. I have been watching live streams on various satelite channels all day. Just like I watched Putin say he was agreeing to the ceasefire, while I watched paramilitary troops moving through Poti.

Guess I should try watching a Russian news channel?

quote:

POTI, Georgia, Aug 14 (Reuters) - Russian tanks rolled into the Georgian port town of Poti on Thursday, accompanying trucks carrying troops to the port, witnesses said, but Russia denied its forces were there.

"Just a few minutes ago they (Russians) entered Poti in tanks," a Poti shipping agent, Nikoloz Gogoli, said by telephone at about 0900 GMT. "Some of the guys have blue signs, badges, which means they should be peacekeepers."

Asked about the reports, Russia's deputy chief of the general staff, Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said: "There are no Russian armour or troops in the city of Poti now."

Nogovitsyn offered no further comment.



War.....it's the new peace.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:42:15 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix


When did Iraq? 


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1156199/posts
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/is_19990216/ai_n11715872 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81213,00.html


Just a couple...

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 3:43:53 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


War.....it's the new peace.


Is that a Bush quote?

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 4:12:00 PM   
NumberSix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix


When did Iraq? 


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1156199/posts
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/is_19990216/ai_n11715872 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81213,00.html


Just a couple...


Oh, come now Thadius, let us reason together here.  Those are far stretches to say that when we threatened war with Hussein, he did not threaten back.  Let's consider them in context, I know you are all het up about this, and in your haste, have given some unconsidered cites.  Since you know I inferred America (and not Russia) in this context, you know I meant unprovoked; as well. I know how smart you are, and you didn't miss it. You are twisting my nose, friend.

Hup 

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 4:19:08 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix


When did Iraq? 


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1156199/posts
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/is_19990216/ai_n11715872 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81213,00.html


Just a couple...


Oh, come now Thadius, let us reason together here.  Those are far stretches to say that when we threatened war with Hussein, he did not threaten back.  Let's consider them in context, I know you are all het up about this, and in your haste, have given some unconsidered cites.  Since you know I inferred America (and not Russia) in this context, you know I meant unprovoked; as well. I know how smart you are, and you didn't miss it. You are twisting my nose, friend.

Hup 


Ron,

Indeed it was a bit of jest... as the question you asked was technically about whiping the US off of the map.  Just as any threat by Georgia against Russia, would be nothing but a canard.

I know it was a long way to go to get to the point, but I do appreciate your being a good sport.

As always your friend,
Thadius

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 4:35:11 PM   
NumberSix


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Status: offline 		But you therefore must see that for these countries to with simple bellicosity intone the destruction of another; it is every bit as empty and swindolous as these pronouncements and of no concern.

Do your damnedest, but when you invade a soveriegn nation-----

That has been my very conservative point all along, when Hussein invaded Kuwait--wipe him off the map. Not in some misguided revenge, the moment was lost.

Now, we are engaged (hate to sound like lincoln) in a great civil war (theirs) and cannot by dint of wherewithal defend freedom as we so loutishly proclaim we will.



 

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 4:44:09 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

But you therefore must see that for these countries to with simple bellicosity intone the destruction of another; it is every bit as empty and swindolous as these pronouncements and of no concern.

Do your damnedest, but when you invade a soveriegn nation-----

That has been my very conservative point all along, when Hussein invaded Kuwait--wipe him off the map. Not in some misguided revenge, the moment was lost.

Now, we are engaged (hate to sound like lincoln) in a great civil war (theirs) and cannot by dint of wherewithal defend freedom as we so loutishly proclaim we will.




Indeed we waited far past when we should have marched through Baghdad, I remember coming home from the sandbox a bit confused.
Thus now being engaged, regardless of how or why, we do need to see it through, as history has shown what a power vacuum in that region results in.

I am sitting on the outside of what is going on over in Georgia, and can only make assumptions, as many here are speculating.  I must say that I like the passive way that Russia is being blocked from attacking the capital though.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 8:56:06 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		General ...
 
How is it that some of the same people that talk about the world court and diplomatic channels, seem to want to give the Russians a pass on this one?
 
Oh, I forgot, this war between Georgia and Russia is actually all about Iraq, Israel and the United States.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 9:02:09 PM   
NumberSix


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Status: offline 		Well, one of the primary reasons would be that WE are not compliant to the judgements of the world court.

W are bigger than that.



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"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 11:07:25 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		Kind of my point in an off-hand way.
 
The world court, is only a court that supports a certain political agenda, and is conveniently avoided when it doesn't.
 
Leave nothing unsaid, I do not agree with war as as method of foreign policy, do not support so called "leaders" that engage in wars with nations that have not attacked us, and quite frankly, think our conduct over the past few years is well past shameful ... but the "world court" and the "world court of public opinion" are two the biggest fucking jokes that have ever existed on this planet.
 
Both amount to nothing more than institutionalized political agendas.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/14/2008 11:49:25 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
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From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		I just wanted to add a few points..

Firstly the article and allegations that Americans are taking over Georgian air bases and airports has been found to be untrue according to the Polish media.

Much of this has got to do with the resettlement and forced repatriation under Joseph Stalin throughout the entire Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc where people were forcibly repatriated elsewhere, e.g. Poles to Kazachstan, Siberians to Poland, Russians to the Ukraine and other republics, Ukrainians repatriated elsewhere and so on. Therefore this conflict may have similar causes to the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia at the start of the 1990's.

There are also long standing border and territory disputes throughout the whole of Eastern Europe which run all the way from the Aegean Sea in the south right up to the Barents Sea in the north. Examples of other border disputes exist between Austria and the Czech Republic over the Telimen dam, between Poland and the Ukraine, between the Ukraine and Russia not to mention the tension on the Crimean peninsula between Ukrainians and ethnic Russians.

That there has been a conflict between Russia and Georgia has been known for many years. A friend of a friend here in London is a young Georgian woman who was given a British passport after her parents - her father being a minister in the Georgian government - were gunned down by the Russian 'mafia' in 2003.

Now knowing that this conflict has been brewing for years, not just the West and the European Union but also the governments of Poland, Estonia and the other Baltic states need to be asking themselves what they've been doing all these years.

One of the reasons why I have always been so anti-Iraq is that maybe instead of pissing about in Iraq the US and Allies should have been paying much closer attention to Wladimir Lukashenko in Belarus and links between Russia and Belarus given the bully boy tactics adopted by Russia over the supply of gas, the high level of organized crime, corruption, and major trafficking routes between places like Afghanistan and the European Union and the distinct possibility that the former Soviet stockpile of weapons just might have fallen into the wrong hands. Surely if there is any sort of war against terrorism and security concerns then surely this area should have been subjected to closer scrutiny a little sooner.

Could there be a connection between the tightening of the Russian-Ukrainian border and restrictions over access to the Russian naval fleet in the Crimean Sea and the apprent withdrawal of Russian forces?

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:30:19 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

General ...
 
How is it that some of the same people that talk about the world court and diplomatic channels, seem to want to give the Russians a pass on this one?
 
Oh, I forgot, this war between Georgia and Russia is actually all about Iraq, Israel and the United States.


No one is giving Russia a pass, if you read this thread you would see the argument is about moral outrage of rightwing Americans have against Russia for invading a sovereign state but having no sense of America being wrong for doing the same thing. The hypicrady of rightwing America is what this thread has turned into.

As I pointed out earlier, there is growing evidence that Georgia was murdering and ethnically cleansing ethnic Russians, if that turns out to be the case Russia had a right to react, any country would react to that action being taken against its citizens. Also, as I earlier pointed out, western politicians aren't complaining about Russia reacting but over reacting, that should tell you even western politicians believe Russia had a right to react.
 
What right had the US and lapdog to invade Iraq? Absolutely none, zero, zilch!

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 5:26:16 AM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		This has nothing to do with Iraq ... none, sero, zilch!
 
If there is all this evidence, why hasn't it been taken to the world court, as opposed to various media sources?
 
By the way, did you see that lastest Soviet () saber rattling over Patriot missiles in Poland?

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 5:35:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

This has nothing to do with Iraq ... none, sero, zilch!
 
If there is all this evidence, why hasn't it been taken to the world court, as opposed to various media sources?
 


The only time a world court will be effective is when people like Bush and Blair are indicted by their own country for aggression. That will be when people take off their patriotic blinkers and excercise their free and democratic right by making the government serve them instead of the government serving itself and the establishment that buys them.

It takes time to gather evidence and the Russians claim they are gathering it, we will see in the coming weeks if the west is supporting a government that acted criminally or not. Not that it will matter, the west's anger at Russia has nothing to do with humanitarian concerns but power politics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
By the way, did you see that lastest Soviet () saber rattling over Patriot missiles in Poland?


It was America that promised the Russians it would not move east and it is America that is breaking its promise. So what's new there?

The majority of Polish people don't want American missiles on their soil but it will only be when people wake up and realize their government should serve them and not those that buy their government, will they get the government they really want. 

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/15/2008 5:40:01 AM >

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 6:23:18 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

This has nothing to do with Iraq ... none, sero, zilch!
 
If there is all this evidence, why hasn't it been taken to the world court, as opposed to various media sources?
 


The only time a world court will be effective is when people like Bush and Blair are indicted by their own country for aggression. That will be when people take off their patriotic blinkers and excercise their free and democratic right by making the government serve them instead of the government serving itself and the establishment that buys them.

It takes time to gather evidence and the Russians claim they are gathering it, we will see in the coming weeks if the west is supporting a government that acted criminally or not. Not that it will matter, the west's anger at Russia has nothing to do with humanitarian concerns but power politics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
By the way, did you see that lastest Soviet () saber rattling over Patriot missiles in Poland?


It was America that promised the Russians it would not move east and it is America that is breaking its promise. So what's new there?

The majority of Polish people don't want American missiles on their soil but it will only be when people wake up and realize their government should serve them and not those that buy their government, will they get the government they really want. 


So folks that don't believe Blair and Bush violated international laws, much less laws of their own nations, are wearing blinders, and are somehow not exercising their freedoms or  rights?  Excellent.

Can you provide proof that the majority of Polish folks don't want want American missiles on their soil?  Or that most of them are just asleep letting their government be bought off?  Or that they dont have the government that they really want?

Ja nie uważam co wy mówicie,
Thadius

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 7:13:16 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Can you provide proof that the majority of Polish folks don't want want American missiles on their soil?  Or that most of them are just asleep letting their government be bought off?  Or that they dont have the government that they really want?


Clearly this was addressed to another poster but I'd offer in answer that the Polish people made their wishes abundantly clear at last year's election.  One of Tusk's first announcements to the Sejm was that Poland would withdraw from Iraq in 2008 and that he would repair Poland's damaged relationship with Europe by refusing to sign unnecessary bilateral missile deals with the US.

If these missiles were actually necessary the proper channel through which to secure their implementation would be NATO.  But Washington knows that they'll be out-voted in NATO, so instead have done central Europe the great favour of using them as a political battleground in their attempts at affronting Moscow.  They have taken your taxes to spend on defending people who can well afford it themselves (the EU) but have reasoned that it's simply unnecessary.

It's clear to everyone that there is no way the US could match Russia in their own backyard, particularly with her protracted involvement in so many extant conflicts; so it's back to yah boo politics - at great cost to the American public.  Rather than revelling in being led by the nose, you Yanks should dispatch these egoists from the White House and elect representatives who don't seek to divert you from your real problems with this endless macho B-movie.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 7:28:58 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Can you provide proof that the majority of Polish folks don't want want American missiles on their soil?  Or that most of them are just asleep letting their government be bought off?  Or that they dont have the government that they really want?

Ja nie uważam co wy mówicie,
Thadius


http://www.spacewar.com/reports/US_missile_shield_nothing_to_celebrate_Polish_towns_mayor_999.html
"This is a day of mourning for us," Mariusz Chmiel, mayor of the small northern Polish community of Redzikowo, told AFP in a telephone interview.
"The shield is meant to defend the United States, not us. On the contrary, all it will do is put us in danger," Chmiel said after Polish and US negotiators inked a preliminary accord in Warsaw.
 
http://www.beurs.nl/nieuws/artikel.php?id=268777&taal=US

According to an opinion poll this year, 60% of residents of the region oppose the shield and 30% are in favour.

And the Czech opinion on sites in Czech.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6720153.stm

the centre-left government of Prime Minister Donald Tusk has been considerably cooler on the issue than the previous government, which lost power in October 2007.
 
Opinion polls indicate that about two-thirds of Czechs do not want the project to go ahead.
 
There are hundreds of sites where Polich and Czech opinion can be found.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/15/2008 7:29:39 AM >

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 7:35:42 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


So folks that don't believe Blair and Bush violated international laws, much less laws of their own nations, are wearing blinders, and are somehow not exercising their freedoms or  rights?  Excellent.



The 100,000 Iraqi deaths and 2 million refugess are in your and my name. For me I don't want my country to fight an imperial war of aggression in my name.

Bush and Blair like other aggressive western leaders hide behind democratic protection of the legislature. They will only consider they are responsible for the deaths their policies cause when we the people make them responsible. Until then, they will make excuses for their ill thought out, barbaric policies.

In my book, the foreign policies of democracies should be better than the foreign policies of tin pot dictators, at the moment they aren't.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 7:39:22 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Polls taken during the 50's and 60's would have shown that most Citizens of western Europe resented the presence of America Air Bases in their backyard.The Responce by Nato and the U.S. Air Force was to apply the best thinking of Madison Ave....and turn a negative into a positive,they coined the phrase "The Sound of Freedom"...Public opinion polls are a really shitty way to make policy...

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