RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .WTF is this about?

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 7:48:14 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Polls taken during the 50's and 60's would have shown that most Citizens of western Europe resented the presence of America Air Bases in their backyard.The Responce by Nato and the U.S. Air Force was to apply the best thinking of Madison Ave....and turn a negative into a positive,they coined the phrase "The Sound of Freedom"...Public opinion polls are a really shitty way to make policy...

The problem for the USA in Europe is that the European media is not so monotone as that in the USA and not so prone to propaganda because it is impossible for a government to control the message here because your neighbour also has a free press with the opinion your government might want to suppress. We also aren't as patriotic as Americans who can be prone to being accused of being unAmerican if they go against their government. You can't be unFrench, unGerman, unBritish.

The other problem for the US with its foreign policy in Europe, there is always some politician willing to tell the truth about what is happening so if you think your government is lying to you, listen to your neighbour's news. Blair couldn't hide the fact that Chirac told him that the evidence pointed to Iraq having no WMDs and that the US and Britain were making the facts fit their policy, which was why the US couldn't get anyone else on board.

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(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 61

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 8:00:57 AM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

Someone has observed that opinion polls are a poor method of designing policy. It should follow then, that the analysis of NATO, which is still yet to offer a road map to entry to Georgia or Ukraine - being based on long-term political and strategic factors - should not be so lightly set aside by Washington. There's a reason for not rushing to admit these states.

It was peaceful in that region before this latest escapade by these strangers to diplomacy. Next time, its to be hoped that they remember: if it ain't broke - don't fix it.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 8/15/2008 8:08:41 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 62

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 8:11:27 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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Its quite clear that US policy in Europe is having a destablizing effect. It is one of the reasons I think Europe should create its own defensive alliance and ask the USA to leave. The problem is, the rich and powerful of Europe have been bought by the American political elite.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 63

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 8:29:55 AM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
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In light of recent developments, I'd tend to agree. There's no doubt that the participation of a sane and level-headed US in NATO would be a huge advantage for both Europe and the US but their tendency to eschew the concerns of their partners and strike bilateral deals whenever they meet resistance makes a mockery of the organisation.

Down the line, polarisation might lead to the Russians seeking to exploit their mineral wealth to undermine the American bias shown by France and the UK. But as we enter the teeth of a recession, this scenario is a hopelessly inept display of what passes for statesmanship under current leaders.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Its quite clear that US policy in Europe is having a destablizing effect. It is one of the reasons I think Europe should create its own defensive alliance and ask the USA to leave. The problem is, the rich and powerful of Europe have been bought by the American political elite.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 64

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 9:00:36 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Does Russia have nothing to do with this invasion of Georgia in your mind?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Its quite clear that US policy in Europe is having a destablizing effect. It is one of the reasons I think Europe should create its own defensive alliance and ask the USA to leave. The problem is, the rich and powerful of Europe have been bought by the American political elite.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 65

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 9:36:06 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Its quite clear that US policy in Europe is having a destablizing effect. It is one of the reasons I think Europe should create its own defensive alliance and ask the USA to leave. The problem is, the rich and powerful of Europe have been bought by the American political elite.

So Russia is also a hapless tool of US foreign policy? They are a thug nation, a rogue nation, a bully nation, because the United States made them thus?

Would you care to explain how this is so?

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Post #: 66

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 9:37:38 AM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

Simply put. You also ignored the portion about Tusk holding out for "Polish demands for US investment to upgrade its own armed forces. ", so the position of the Polish government is we will do it, we just want our military upgraded. But to be more specific...

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/08/14/europe/OUKWD-UK-SHIELD-POLAND.php

quote:

Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk had insisted the United States provide more military cooperation in return for consent to host 10 interceptor rockets at a base in northern Poland.

quote:

"We have crossed the Rubicon," Tusk said just before the deal was signed.
"We have finally got understanding of our point of view that Poland, being a crucial partner in NATO and an important friend and ally of the United States, must also be safe."

I wonder how much the recent Soviet, err I mean Russian actions had on influencing Poland to sign this deal now. Kind of interesting to keep reading that your opinion is that it is "American agrression" that is to blame for things. Could one not reasonably assume that, if Russia has no plans on reannexing former Soviet bloc countries, that there is no reason for this to be seen as a threat? Remember it is the Russians throwing around words like "punished".

Talking to friends and family, yeah I have some over there, my ex-wife was first generation born here, the concern is about Russian aggression not about the missiles being placed there.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 67

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 9:39:46 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

You poke at a bear or tiger,you`re going to get a reaction.You might even get your arm torn off.To think otherwise,is naive.

Of course the animal is dangerous.You know that going in.

That`s why you have expert handlers that know what they`re doing and you contain the risks,as much as possible.Not a bunch of neo-con know-nothings.Condi Rice,what a joke.

You can`t go poking at it,thinking you`re going to get away with it.

To argue that this isn`t part of the bigger geo-political situation there, is naive.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/15/2008 9:42:58 AM >

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Post #: 68

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 10:02:00 AM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Talking to friends and family, yeah I have some over there, my ex-wife was first generation born here, the concern is about Russian aggression not about the missiles being placed there.

Well, if we're getting scientific about it - my ex is Polish and just came back from her holiday there and she assures me everyone hates the thought that they will now be targeted by Russian missiles. It's a bit like the UK in the 80s and the huge antipathy against US cruise missiles being stationed here.

Anecdotes prove nothing.

Na Zdrowie!

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 69

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 10:05:07 AM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

So Russia is also a hapless tool of US foreign policy? They are a thug nation, a rogue nation, a bully nation, because the United States made them thus?

They are also a rubber nation.

And you are glue.

It bounces off them and sticks to you.

Yah.

Boo.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 70

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 10:17:34 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

lol

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Post #: 71

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 10:43:04 AM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Talking to friends and family, yeah I have some over there, my ex-wife was first generation born here, the concern is about Russian aggression not about the missiles being placed there.

Well, if we're getting scientific about it - my ex is Polish and just came back from her holiday there and she assures me everyone hates the thought that they will now be targeted by Russian missiles. It's a bit like the UK in the 80s and the huge antipathy against US cruise missiles being stationed here.

Anecdotes prove nothing.

Na Zdrowie!

You still ignore the links and proof I provide above my own personal observations... Nice attempt, it still does not address the fact that TUSK has signed off on the agreement.

Interesting tactic.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 72

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 10:56:24 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

This is becoming surreal...Russian agression = America bashing and a denial of America's role in protecting Western Europe from Russian Agression...Kafka himself would have rejected this storyline as too bizzare....

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 73

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 11:29:44 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

So Russia is also a hapless tool of US foreign policy? They are a thug nation, a rogue nation, a bully nation, because the United States made them thus?

They are also a rubber nation.

And you are glue.

It bounces off them and sticks to you.

Yah.

Boo.

I see......

_____________________________

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 74

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 11:33:35 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

What was it Nicholson said in A Few Good Men...about sleeping under the very protection we provided...oh yeah something along the lines of preffering you just say Thank You...would seem not to be too much to ask...huh?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 75

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 11:45:48 AM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

I think there are wrongs on both sides of this conflict and that the oil resources of the region are a primary motivating factor.

What worries me more is how many other countries may participate in this dispute and the law of unintended consequences.

It was inevitable that after the Soviet Empire started to disintegrate the old disputes between rival ethnic groups and territories would start again. The question is how best to handle these conflcits.

Most agree on starting with humanitarian aide and diplomacy. At what point if ever, should other nations intervene with military aide? Especially if one or both of the nations involved have treaties and alliances with the country providing the aide.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
we will see in the coming weeks who was in the right, the Russians or the Georgians.

_____________________________

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 76

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 11:53:20 AM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
I see......

No, you don't. As long as you consider demonizing any group a legitimate manner in which to view conflict, you will see nothing but your own fear.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 77

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 11:54:02 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

What was it Nicholson said in A Few Good Men...about sleeping under the very protection we provided...oh yeah something along the lines of preffering you just say Thank You...would seem not to be too much to ask...huh?

Yes, it was Nicholson.

Your point is....????

_____________________________

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Post #: 78

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 11:58:30 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
I see......

No, you don't. As long as you consider demonizing any group a legitimate manner in which to view conflict, you will see nothing but your own fear.

Russian tanks are in Georgian territory. Not South Ossetia, not Abkhazia, but uncontestably Georgian territory. That makes them a thug, rogue, bully nation. By definition.

They can choose to be otherwise. All they need to do is back off, back down, stand down, and conduct their affairs in the manner of a civilized nation. They do that and I will be happy to stop referring to them in what you consider demonic terms.

Until such time as they do this, they are disqualified from even the pretense of angelic halo. They are the demons in this drama by their own actions.

_____________________________

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 79

RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:00:53 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
I see......

No, you don't. As long as you consider demonizing any group a legitimate manner in which to view conflict, you will see nothing but your own fear.

My question for you is, why would Russia oppose another nation or nations from joining an organization that they themselves belong to?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 80

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