RE: write and read the right rant (Full Version)

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sub4hire -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 2:26:24 PM)

The Crude Oil Marketplace

Crude oil is the largest single component in the price of a gallon of gasoline, and its price is determined by the global supply and demand for it. The single largest factor in global supply is the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), a group of 11 countries with 40 percent of the world's oil production. This makes these countries an influential factor in setting crude prices. When OPEC decides to reduce production, oil - and subsequently - gasoline prices rise, and American drivers pay more at the pump.

Many major oil producers are not members of OPEC. These include Russia, Canada, Mexico, Angola, and China. The United States is the third largest oil producer after Russia and Saudi Arabia. However, because of the large size of its economy and its energy needs, the United States must import about 62 percent of its oil. In recent years, we have shifted our import supply away from the Middle East. Two of our biggest foreign suppliers are Canada and Mexico.

Fact: OPEC consists of 11 countries: Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Libya, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Algeria, Indonesia, Nigeria, and Venezuela. They produce 40 percent of the world's oil and hold approximately 77 percent of the world's oil reserves.


http://www.gasolineandyou.org/



Estring -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 3:12:18 PM)

You really think President Bush would take this country into war to avenge his father? I find it hard to believe that people who say that really believe it. As if 9/11 or Saddams' behavior wasn't justification enough.



dixiedumpling -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 3:32:00 PM)

This is really in response to jillwfsub4blkdom, but i'm not backing up to punch that button.

I read that Bush Sr. stopped short of taking Saddam down because the U.N. told him to. Bush Sr. followed the U.N.'s party line on how far to go.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 3:45:25 PM)

US daily usage of crude oil 75M Barrels

US daily production of oil 46M Barrels

These stats are from USA Today Newspaper that cited averages for 2003 from OPEC, thats 61.333333333333% on my calculater, we export some of it though but the truth remains that the US is not going to war to defend its oil prices.



sub4hire -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 4:09:32 PM)

I merely stated the facts from the gasolineandyou.org website. Which is the american petroleum institute.
OPEC is worldwide. It is not the US. I am certainly no expert on oil. I only know what I read. That is why I went straight to the american oil page to find out the info.

I was in the gulf war....I tend to agree with most we are there for oil.



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 7:10:59 PM)

quote:

The reason we had to occupy Iraq is because of the armed and hostile populace. Otherwise we'd just be going back later as UN peacekeepers.


[sarcasm]
I cant imagine why the people of Iraq who were armed prior to our invading them would be hostile to us after we invaded them.
[/sarcasm]

A lot of people have weapons which can blow up cities. Do you honestly believe
that Saddam was a clear threat to the US in any way, shape, or form? Possibly,
he did disrespect Bush Sr., but if one of Bush Sr's homies or family went out and
killed somebody who disrespected Bush Sr. in this country, they would be thrown
in jail.

I am simply stating there when you apply the reasons initially stated for going to war in Iraq to the entire planet, Iraq is way down the list of countries who would deserve to be invaded.

Which gets back to my initial point. Why is it the responsibility of the United States to invade anybody? I just think we have a lot of things those monies would be better spent on here in the US.

Sinergy



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 8:00:06 PM)

you may agree with most, But the facts you listed worked against you. Nowhere did you show that Iraq is a contributor to the American Oil market. So I must disagree with you. Sorry. Now dont get me wrong I'm not a hard core republican or a die hard Bush supporter, I just think people are falling to the Media and making a judgement without researching facts on their own. So while I do disagree with you I must say that I applaud you for doing your own research and not just being influenced by the Media.



sub4hire -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 8:18:51 PM)

Actually I have a pdf file that I downloaded from the site. Stating how much oil we get from Iraq. Collarme doesn't recognize pdf's that is why I didn't post it.

It is much lower than most think..only like 6% however, we still get oil from them. A lot of oil from the entire region. 11.7 from Saudi, that alone is a reason bush would go to war.
Iraq is 5.2%. Mexico is actually 13.2%, I never would have realized that.
19.1% of our oil comes from the Persian Gulf as a whole.
It has actually risen a percentage in the past 2 month's. We're getting more oil from that region now.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me. We both learn something that way. It made me look it up. I'm not a Bush supporter because of the last Bush. This one hasn't run the country well either. However, I'm not so sure any one person could run the country anymore.

I do love doing research on both candidates though. Its amazing how the media doesn't truly show an accurate depiction of either candidate. When you start looking outside of the US you find out just how corrupt they actually are.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 8:22:58 PM)

I agree there are better things to spend money on. But making economical decisions has never been this countries strong suit no matter who was in the drivers seat. The president has very little control to improve the economy although with a few words he can send it spiraling down. I dont think Bush Sr. had anything to do with us going to Iraq. No matter who was in office after 9/11 with all the hype and support behind the president he could have invaded Canada and people would have been o.k. with it. But as for many countries being that kind of threat???? WHO? China and US are all but official allies now, The Soviet Union is disbanded and Russia needs the US for aid, Pakistan is our ally, and India is also considered an ally. That leaves North Korea, Egypt, and Iraq. As possible countries that could pose a threat. Iraq is the only one that has used those weapons against people. Some of the people he used it against were Saddams own people. And WMD's cover a lot of area nuclear is one of those, Gas, chemical and radiation are others. Saddam used Serin Gas against the Kurds, and Kuwait. And it is the US responsibilty because if we continue to allow that behavior to foster then sooner or later we will have no other choice but to fight it anyway the only difference is later it might be a fight on our own soil. Look at what happened on 50-60 years ago? We didnt want any part of the troubles in Asia and Europe we let it go saying its not our responsibility. Yet sooner or later BAM Pearl Harbor. Wake up the world is a small place we cannot isolate ourselves from the rest of it. So what is your solution to sit back and do nothing? yes lets do that let wait till they've perfected a low altitude scud that wont be detected till its too late. Lets wait for them to load it into a sub creep over to the US border and then launch it against DC NY Boston Detroit Miami Philadelphia or hell all of Rhode Island. What then would it be o.k. then to invade. How many lives must be lost before we can go on others soil to defend ourselves? Wasnt the # of lives lost in 9/11 enough to warrant this? And there is no question in my mind that Iraq had a hand in it all along. Why dont you ask Kuwait if they like the US taking responsibility for the safety of others? Or ask France, Great Brits, ask Russia, ask Germans, ask Jews, ask the Cubans who pour into our country if they would like the Dictator removed there, ask Saudi Arabia who would have been next on Iraq's hit list after Kuwait, ask Bosnians, ask the Czech Republic, ask Lithuania. Ask all those countries if they would have been better off if the US stayed out of the wars when tanks were rolling over their countries massacreing their people. We live in a world now not just a country anymore.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 8:23:28 PM)

Well theres my rant again. Good Column eh?



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 8:28:15 PM)

see you looked it up and my figures were pretty close I dont know when yours accounted for but mine was averages for 2003. Nice work though. I agree we get a lot of our exports from that region but Iraqs 6% really didnt have anything to do with it i think. Saudi Arabia is the largest supporter there and thats our Ally.



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 8:47:42 PM)

"Smokey is fragile, Walter, he was a concientious objecter in 'Nam', he has emotional problems" Jeff Bridges

"You mean beyond pacificism?" John Goodman

The Big Lebowski

quote:

As possible countries that could pose a threat. Iraq is the only one that has used those weapons against people.


[sarcasm]
Yes, the US and China and Sri Lanka and most of the Arab states and Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union and... all used guns and planes and bombs and stuff to kill people like they are supposed to.

Well, except the US when they refused to see the Japanese ambassadors after Hiroshima until after they tested a Hydrogen Bomb on Nagasaki.
Or firebombed Dresden to test a new weapon technology.
Or dropped cluster bombs and napalm on Vietnamese villages,
Or fired depleted uranium rounds by the hundreds of thousands into the desert in Iraq which wont stop being radioactive for a rather long time

Wait, umm... Can we invade ourselves and search for WMDs?
[/sarcasm]

I wont argue about the quantity of oil we get. Although with the globalization of the economy, I personally dont see it as too big a stretch that a president so deeply enmeshed in multinational corporate back pockets would protect the oil supply of, say, south Korea or Japan to protect their profits.

Now I am curious about your response to my second point about the wisdom of occupying an armed and hostile country. Was not really an issue until Shrub invaded...

Back to your regularly scheduled rant.

Sinergy

p.s. I again apologize for being grumpy, I really dislike warfare in general, and this cast really annoys me.



jillwfsub4blkdom -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 8:48:00 PM)

Estring,
What did Bush use as his premise for the war? He used the statement of WMD's. Now since they have been unable to find any substantial amounts of them, he is backtracking and using a regime change. i find it very difficult to swallow presenting one case and then changing it in midstream when we are in this war now.

jill



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 10:01:02 PM)

would you go see the ambassador of a country that you know your going to bomb?

How much do you really know about Dresden? Like did you know the primary targets were Nazi soldiers fleeing from the advancing Soviets? They were taking refuge and putting up a front line in Dresden did you know that? Did you know there were a column of taks approxomately 200 running through Dresden at the time of its Bombing. The 3 days that it was under attack approxomately 20,000 people died somethink like 16 square Kilometers were completely leveled. 14,000 homes some 4000 tons of bombs were dropped. Thats terrible right lets compare. When the Luftwafe and Nazi ground troops stormed Bucharest a comparable city in size and population. The military presence in the city was less than 1500 troops 25 tanks and no aircraft at all. 28,000 tons of bombs were dropped using much more devastating things than a petroleum based gasoline. They destroyed 30,000 homes some 150,000 people died and when they were done they occupied the city and shipped another 250,000 people off to be gassed or worked to death in concentration camps. My uncle being one of them. You'll have a hard time arguing with the survivors of the Holocaust that the US had no right to bomb the nazi's no matter where they were. I hate war too, but the fact of the matter is that you cannot just lay down your guns and say peace and love, because all you'll accomplish is getting shot by the other side. Comming from a family member who survived the Holocaust and a Dom that minored in European history with a special interest in WWII I have tons more evidence to back up claims of what really happened. On a larger scale take a look at how many lives were saved by Ending the combat right there.

I agree with you on the cluster bombs in Vietnam though, there was absolutely no reason to be in Vietnam much less use cluster munitions.

And as for depleted uranium aka DU? hehehe you really dont know much about it do you? It has no affect on the environment as the atoms will cling to each other until they disengage their molecular breakdown, ya know that whole halflife thingy. So in 70,000 years tell me how they start affecting people. Until then they have no affect on living organisms unless you ingest it. I dont know too many people that have DU on their menus?? People like to claim that the GI's had so many sicknesses, yet research all wars and there are sicknesses related to combat veterans. Or havent you heard of Agent Orange? or how about WWI when Gi's were getting lead poisoning fromt eh MRE's being contained in lead encased packets? Or how the US consented to using DDT on children in the US before the FDA finished running tests. Or how in the Civil war Mercury solutions were used to treat VD? I mean really DU is the least of the worries GI's have. Any physicist can tell you that depleted heavy metals are harmless as long as you dont ingest any, the worst that can happen is if you handle them with and they come in contact with your skin for lengthened periods of time muscles will start to atrophy causing them to weaken. Boo Hoo so just dont make a necklace out of the stuff.

So sure when we start threatening other countries, and when we start gassing our own citizens, and when we start condone terrorist acts then by all means we should be held accountable and investigated. but searched for WMD's uh whats the point we have em already and its not a secret. So what are you going to search for? Like I said but you conveniently left it out of the quote you took, he was using them against his own people. IF we dont stand up for them then who will? Or is it your position that we should just say screw them and let him gass as many peopl as he wants as long as its not us?

There is a certain time when because you are the big guy and because you are powerful that it is your obligation to stand up and protect those who cannot protect themselves. When you have to fight tyranny and opression even if you dont have a direct interest in it. If this was really about oil do you think that we would be there or wouldnt it be easier to let him do as he pleases so we can have a good political standing with this deserately needed 4% of the US oil market?

The whole point of Occupation was to ensure that not just some warlord took over as in Somalia. If we pulled out it would have been just the next asshole and same situation. We had to ensure that there would be a stable government there. Now that the exchange of power has been handed over they are asking the US to stay and possibly send in more troops because they realize that they cannot handle this alone. They are asking us to stay. Unlike Vietnam when they didnt want us there in the first place. These people are asking and begging for our help and you would do what brush them off and shove them away?

Either way i only see 2 ways out of this mess, we either stay and set up a structured government and enusre that it has the ability to defend itself, or we drop enough bombs to turn Iraq into a 24 hour parking lot? Betweenthe two I take the former over the latter.

So I ask you regardless of you liking us in there or not what would you do if you were in control now? I dont want to hear I would never go in there in the first place, because that is done and over with but rather what would you have done now that we are in there? Just leave?



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/5/2004 10:08:30 PM)

I'm not fighting that. I agree he gets the dunce award for that one. They have found WMD's just not in huge stockpiles. I think he should have stuck with the WMD theory it just makes him look like an ass for switching stories. Although keep in mind there are often many reasons for going to war not just one. besides I support the war not necessarily the man who waged it.



basiasubrosa -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 2:36:08 AM)

Hello, sorry it took so long to get back to respond. Whew, what a thread to catch up on.... I guess the myth that life does go on outside of the lab is actually true....

quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu
Actually the standard justification for that was at least they were "our" dictators not Russia or China's. Think any sleep easier now that that justification ended in 1989? Ask Noreiga. What might allow them more time is "world" opinion and tactics.
North Korea might get away with murder because it has two hostages - South Korea and Japan. (They test fired a missle over japan and may have nukes, figure it out.)
Saudi Arabia has a horrible human rights record (ask one of those veiled girl who died in a school house fire because the firemen could not see them unveiled.) They also are the biggest finacers of terrorists. They, Iran, Syria, Algeria, etc. can get away with murder for now because of world opinion.


I don't really get your point here. I think you're trying to say that global negligence is perpetuating governments with bad HR records, but i can't quite tell. Would you mind clarifying?

quote:

You know what? I agree with you. Leave us alone and we should leave all the suffering and mud hut squabble alone. It's only genocide if it is on TV, right? Can't you guys take care of your own messes, say the genocide in Sudan that "the world" ignores (except the US congress, hmm....), or the geneocide in Kosovo that Europe ignored until the US held it's hand via NATO, or the gassing of Kurds by Saddam Hussein as France and Germany lead the sanction busting bus? It sounds like I'm listing scenes of US intervention where the "world" diddled. I'm only doing it to make a point about how much the US acts.

In Kosovo the US tried to leave it to its "allies", but they would not act with out the US.

In Sudan either it will fester or the "world" will bring in the "last remaining superpower" like in Somalia.

Again, i am a bit confused. Interpretive help, please? I acknowledge the incidents you list, i just can't assemble an argument from them.... My tentative guess is that you think "the world" should stop asking the US to intervene in all sorts of icky situations while "the world" does nothing but provide a running critique?

quote:

I doubt you'll be happy dodging bullets.

Didn't you know that i'm just masochistic like that? [:)] Note that i said refugee camps, not war zones, though i suppose there isn't much difference in unfortunately too many cases.

quote:


Post is longer than yours! Neener! Neener![:-][:D]

Why, thank ye kindly! I'd be terribly embarrassed if my post was the longest. How generous of you! [;)]



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 5:52:10 AM)

quote:

would you go see the ambassador of a country that you know your going to bomb?


After Hiroshima the Japanese ambassadors tried to sue for peace and the US refused to see them until...

They tested Little Man on Nagasaki.

My point was not that Nazi's are bad, it was that Dresden was levelled because they were not militarily important and the city was not bombed during the war. The Nazi tank line could have been bombed 50 miles away from Dresden in the middle of nowhere.

But they were not.

quote:

And as for depleted uranium aka DU? hehehe you really dont know much about it do you? It has no affect on the environment as the atoms will cling to each other until they disengage their molecular breakdown, ya know that whole halflife thingy.


Well, DU actually vaporizes on impact due to the velocity (10k fps) of the round. It is the kinetic energy of the round which turns the tank into swiss cheese. I have a relative who works in the industry...

As a bullet it is relatively inert, I doubt it has much difficulty getting on your Big Mac in vapor form. Of course, as disparate atoms in the soil it will end up in grown foodstuffs and/or the water supply and/or fish...

The Soviets gassed people in their own country, why didnt we invade them?

quote:


So sure when we start threatening other countries,


Like when we threatened to invade Iraq...

quote:


and when we start condone terrorist acts then by all means we should be held accountable and investigated.


Like when the US gives weapons to south American rebel forces...

quote:


There is a certain time when because you are the big guy and because you are powerful that it is your obligation to stand up and protect those who cannot protect themselves.


Could say the same thing about anybody who supports the Palestineans. Perhaps we should have given money to support the Soviet Union since they kept the Eastern Europeans from killing each other. Etc.

There is also a time where the big powerful guy has to realize that one is acting like the schoolyard bully picking on those smaller and weaker.

Just me, could be wrong, but...

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 5:55:35 AM)

quote:

The whole point of Occupation was to ensure that not just some warlord took over as in Somalia. If we pulled out it would have been just the next asshole and same situation. We had to ensure that there would be a stable government there. Now that the exchange of power has been handed over they are asking the US to stay and possibly send in more troops because they realize that they cannot handle this alone. They are asking us to stay.


The puppet government WE installed is asking us to stay.

Have you read the constitution we gave them? It requires the Iraqis to pay US companies to rebuild their infrastructure...

Some segments of the population are shooting at us, which to me does not translate to say the same thing.

The Diem government in South Vietnam wanted us to stay as well. Look where that got us.

Deja vu all over again. John Fogerty
Sinergy



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 6:59:59 AM)

quote:



My point was not that Nazi's are bad, it was that Dresden was levelled because they were not militarily important and the city was not bombed during the war. The Nazi tank line could have been bombed 50 miles away from Dresden in the middle of nowhere.


Bombing of Dresden was Feb 13-15 the Germans didnt surrender till May 8th Japan and other axis powers didnt surrender till Sept. 9th So um Febuary is still in the war at least on my Calendar. But maybe your using some ancient Mayan calendar that nobody knows about. Here on Earth May comes after Feb. and Sept. is further after may. Dresden also was harboring at the time some 15,000 troop that werent moving through they were moving into the city the Germans made it a target by taking refuge there. Sorry but on this one your just factually and historically wrong. If your getting your Ideas fron KV's book slaughterhouse5 then you may want to reconsider that the book is fiction, it has aliens in it for Gods sake.

quote:

Well, DU actually vaporizes on impact due to the velocity (10k fps) of the round. It is the kinetic energy of the round which turns the tank into swiss cheese. I have a relative who works in the industry...


Good then your relative can inform you that in such small quantities, like the amount of vapor comming off those round, it would do little more than pass through your system maybe cause a tummy ache and then pass in your stool. And test after test has shown that the amout of vapor comming off those rounds is nothing when compared to the Smoke, Fire, explosive damage that is caused by the round itself. My point is this if your in a old Abrams tank generally considered to be one of the toughest, and your hit by one of these shells you dont have to worry about vapor because your not breathing your dead. Either from the explosion, the smoke inhilation or burnded in a 1.5 million dollar oven. No survivor has ever been found from a tank hit by a DU shelling. Now lets also remember that DU is strictly an antivehicle weapon not a anti structure weapon so they dont use it to shell McDonalds so my BigMacs are fine for the time being.

quote:

The Soviets gassed people in their own country, why didnt we invade them?


We did. We marched in dressed in our UN uniforms as peacekeepers, sanctions were posted and given and the Soviets backed off. the Same thing was tried in Iraq but they didnt budge they just kept launching after we looked away.

quote:


Like when we threatened to invade Iraq..


We told them we were comming gave them the chance to surrender. It was a retaliation not an invasion theres a difference.

quote:


Like when the US gives weapons to south American rebel forces...


Yes although I would really call that terrorist when we're trying to get a dictator out of power who established a country's main source of income as drug to the US. Yes i think this falls into the defending ourselves category. And lets clear the air here it wasnt all of SOuth america it was 2 countries. Columbia to oust Pablo Escobar which once we did those weapons and troop became the main force against the Drug cartell. And Cuba who still enforces the drug trade.

quote:


Could say the same thing about anybody who supports the Palestineans. Perhaps we should have given money to support the Soviet Union since they kept the Eastern Europeans from killing each other. Etc.


More like could say the same thing about the Soviet Union before it disbanded Because it was the other superpower that acted in the same way. As peacekeepers in the Middle East.

quote:

There is also a time where the big powerful guy has to realize that one is acting like the schoolyard bully picking on those smaller and weaker.


There is a difference the military has not acted as a bully imposing its will. We do that economically. Most of the times you cited we were either told to go in by the UN or asked to come in by some country calling for help. I seriously doubt any one worldwide government would classify Iraq as completely unjustified, I know there are others that wanted weapons inspectors again stress the again part of that. But how much bullshit are you willing to choke down from Saddam? We're not choking Luxembourg to death saying give us your luch money. We're not grabbing ahold of Iran and beating them into a pulp, and we hate them.

Now if you would please answer my question from before?

quote:

So I ask you regardless of you liking us in there or not what would you do if you were in control now? I dont want to hear I would never go in there in the first place, because that is done and over with but rather what would you have done now that we are in there? Just leave?


And I'll add another....Why are you in the US if you dont support it and if it has such a terrible track record historically why wouldnt you move out of here if its so terrible here? I think you need to ask yourself that and maybe be a bit more thankful for having an opportunity to live here.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 7:16:55 AM)

quote:

The puppet government WE installed is asking us to stay.


Why is it a puppet Government? I have seen no proof of that. Or is it puppet just because WE installed it? What would you have done, your not happy we were in occupation, and now your not happy that we handed over power. Pardon my French but WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU WANT US TO DO???? Try commin up with solutions and not just US bashing.

quote:

Have you read the constitution we gave them?


Yes I have.

quote:

It requires the Iraqis to pay US companies to rebuild their infrastructure...


The US went to a lot fo trouble and cost to remove their Tyrannical Dictator. Why shouldnt the US be the ones to get contracts no matter how you turn it the US still comes out of this losing Money even with the rebuilding. What happened here is the US ensured that US companies would get the contracts, its also a political move by forcing them to work with us it gives us an opportunity to build a trust and a bond that wasnt there before whats wrong with taking two countries that hated each other and making them work together and be at peace? Or are you anit-peace now too?

quote:

Some segments of the population are shooting at us, which to me does not translate to say the same thing.


You will always have dissidents, you dont think there are still people out there who think we should Nuke Russia? You dont think there are people that are US citizens residing in this country that would take down the US military and Government? I'm beginning to think your one of them.

The Diem government in South Vietnam wanted us to stay as well. Look where that got us. I said before I'm not going to argue that with you because I agree we should have never been there.

This is not Deja Vu in Vietnam we were fighting to control a populace here we've handed over power and told them to do what you will with it. Read that Constitution again the US has no political power there. If they choose to go back to a Dictator then so be it. Just not Saddam. Not that man. Not that tyrrany.

Oh yes as for the comment on the tank line being bomberd 50 miles away....not really if they had waited for them to reach the next target....First they would have had to split their forces one to level Dresden and its 20,000 troops, the other to attack the tank column, not to mention if they had waited then they would have had to deal with anti-aircraft guns. And American and British casualties would have skyrocketed. Or would you rather we lost our troops as well? Dresden was a unique opportunity that had high civilian casualties but even higher military importance.



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