RE: write and read the right rant (Full Version)

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Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 6:35:16 PM)

quote:

And I'll add another....Why are you in the US if you dont support it and if it has such a terrible track record historically why wouldnt you move out of here if its so terrible here? I think you need to ask yourself that and maybe be a bit more thankful for having an opportunity to live here.


Pay off the national debt if we had a nickel for everytime that particular epithet was lobbed at somebody who opposed the Vietnam war. Opposing one's governments policies and being unpatriotic are not actually synonymous, although I am not going to argue that point since it is so reminiscent of the jingoism thrown around during the 1960s.

It is attempting to use an emotional position to shore up a logically indefensible argument. I will not engage in that with you. Enjoy!

We shouldnt be in Iraq.

quote:


This is not Deja Vu in Vietnam we were fighting to control a populace here we've handed over power and told them to do what you will with it. Read that Constitution again the US has no political power there. If they choose to go back to a Dictator then so be it. Just not Saddam. Not that man. Not that tyrrany.


We rearmed the Japanese in Vietnam to restore order after WW2, largely because we wanted them to have a government we could consider supportive of US policies. When the popular figure (Ho Chi Minh) to lead the country had interactions with Communist China, we created a government (led by Diem and his ilk), slapped a label on it's forehead stating it was created with the will of the people. Drafted them a constitution. Then we sent in soldiers to keep it in place.

Seems to me like the same thing is happening in Iraq. Doesnt seem like a "popular" government to me, but as I always say, I could be wrong.

We should probably apologize to the UN for invading without their support or consent and work as a coalition of forces to stabilize Iraq, BUT, we should step down from having veto power or a controlling vote. Hey, we got ourselves into this mess. Suck it up and actually work with everybody else instead of steamrollering over their input.

We should also revoke all aspects of the Iraqi charter which require them to use US companies or companies allied to the US interests and put each and every rebuilding contract out for competitive bid world wide.

Sadly, our current Simian In Chief is not known for his skills at consensus building, relationship building, or compromise, either with other national leaders or within his own government, so I dont see it happening any time soon.

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 6:40:31 PM)

quote:

Oh yes as for the comment on the tank line being bomberd 50 miles away....not really if they had waited for them to reach the next target....First they would have had to split their forces one to level Dresden and its 20,000 troops, the other to attack the tank column, not to mention if they had waited then they would have had to deal with anti-aircraft guns. And American and British casualties would have skyrocketed. Or would you rather we lost our troops as well? Dresden was a unique opportunity that had high civilian casualties but even higher military importance.


I have read the same analysis for the use of nuclear weapons against Japan.

But then I have also read that the US left the battleships in Pearl Harbor when they lost track of the Japanese carrier fleet, but moved the carriers out since an attack on the battleship fleet would bring the US into world war 2.

Strategically it was probably a great idea since battleships were useless in the Pacific.

But explain that to the children of those killed at Pearl Harbor.

quote:


Or would you rather we lost our troops as well?


Anyway...

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 6:50:42 PM)

Hello,

On a related note, the Vietnam war lasted as long as it did because of a widespread fear that if the US pulled out the Chinese would invade and cut off the oil pipeline to Japan.

The US pulled out in the mid 1970s.

The Vietnamese asked to reopen relations almost immediately with the US and were rebuffed.

The Chinese did what they have normally done (with several exceptions; Tibet, Korea) for thousands of years. Nothing.
Korea was only an issue because the Chinese did not want a US military presence on their borders.

Sinergy



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 8:26:07 PM)

I'm not trying to use a colloqueal statement but you dont seem to like anything about the US and if that is the case then i really do ask...... Why are you here?

I agree that Bush has not been a sterling leader hell he's not even the tarnished spoon in the bottom of the drawer, however i think your reasons for thinking he made this war personal are unfounded. Avenging his fathers term in the White house is an absurd thought for war. He made this war personal not because of his father or Oil, or for US labor contracts. He made this a personal war because of 9/11 now I'm not saying Iraq was the mastermind behind it. But it is a source of terrorism that is a threat to this country. I look at it more liek this was unfinished buisness. The US never should have left Iraq before, they should have rolled right through to Bagdad and nailed the SOB then. That way we'd never be in this mess.

The performance of past leaders and presidents is not and should not be a indicator of present events. As for the US Veto power in Iraq it has yet to be used and if you investigate it closely its as a military provision. Its in there so that Iraq cannot begin to syphon off money and arms to terrorist organizations. And so that US embassies will be safe in a foreign country.

We had the UN support we needed just not UN troops. What were they going to do tell the US to go in and stop the war its a part of? 9 times out of ten when we go to war its as UN peacekeepers at their request. People bitch and say the US shouldnt wage war. Its not the US that is usually waging war. This time it is, we had 3 out of the 5 permanant seats supporting us, and the other two just abstaining not dissenting. A host of other countries said they would neither support nor condemn the US if it went to war, and the majority of the other dissenting votes had reasons that went a little like.....We shouldnt invade because we dont know what Saddam will do. We shouldnt invade because he might start killing his own countrymen. When the UN said to send in arms inspectors againt he US said fine send em in we're just not going to be sending our Scientists and investigators. So the UN got its little band of men that went to Iraq and were denied entry into any military sites. That to me doesnt sound like a country trying to avoid war.

As for the Labor contracts do you really think that is a frontruner on anybodies minds? Not to mention Look throughout History thats almost like a given that its going to be that way. From every war I can remember studying its been that way. Russia demanded that the Afgan Gov't hire its services for repair and replacement. Russia actually supplied the labor and materials needed to rebuild much of Germany and Europe after WWII, the Brits were second, and the US third. That part isnt something they teach in your basic textbooks. You actually have to research that, or take a class specifically in the European economy post WWII. So crying about that is irrelevant its almost a given in any peace treaty. Its like tradition now.

How long do you think that country would last if the US pulled out Completely? I'd say maybe a week. We're not there to steamroll anybody we're there to assure that no warlord gets back into power.



SherriA -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 8:37:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheeba0228
He made this a personal war because of 9/11 now I'm not saying Iraq was the mastermind behind it.


Huh? Ummm...hate to burst your bubble, but Iraq/Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Somehow the shrub managed to link the two in people's minds, but they're two separate issues. Saddam's regieme was reviled by Bin Ladin and his followers as not nearly theocratic enough.

The shrub took people's horror about 9/11 and twisted it into his personal agenda. When he got called on that he cried "weapons of mass destruction". When he got called on THAT lie, he said it was because of the repressive regieme (though he's not done a bloody thing about any repressive regiemes that can't supply him with oil and jobs for his buddies).

Iraq not only wasn't the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, they had NOTHING to do with them.

The US had no business invading a soverign nation, especially based on lies and obfuscation. Oh, wait....it was ALL about business...so ok, they had business, but no legitimate reason or right.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 8:38:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I have read the same analysis for the use of nuclear weapons against Japan.

But then I have also read that the US left the battleships in Pearl Harbor when they lost track of the Japanese carrier fleet, but moved the carriers out since an attack on the battleship fleet would bring the US into world war 2.

Strategically it was probably a great idea since battleships were useless in the Pacific.
But explain that to the children of those killed at Pearl Harbor.


Battleships were Very affective in the Pacific I have not idea where you got that idea. Every hear of Midway? or How we decimated Japans navy? Or how attack after attack was launched from Aircraft carriers in the Pacific. They were very affective there. The Blame my debate partner lies with the moron who decided to give the whole pacific fleet a 2 day pass all at the same time. We pulled all our ships into one small area where their crews were all gone for the weekend, their torpedo's had no affect because it was all planes that struck, and our planes were all grounded at that time with their pilots on a 2 day pass. That was where the blame lies in the ignorance to think that we could stay out of that War forever.

As for your anyway comment I was serious your course of action would have cost thousands of mroe lives. Did you think of that first? War isnt all clean cut and dry. There is a big Grey area and it gets really messy in there. In your case it must be nice to sit back and bitch about it when you werent there and didnt have to make that call.



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 11:43:30 PM)

quote:

I'm not trying to use a colloqueal statement but you dont seem to like anything about the US and if that is the case then i really do ask...... Why are you here?


I have mentioned once I am not going to engage in this conversation with you because of its complete irrelevance to the point of the discussion, as well as its jingoistic irrationality as a point of argument.

Next!

quote:


Battleships were Very affective in the Pacific I have not idea where you got that idea. Every hear of Midway?


I have read extensively about military operations in the Pacific.

Midway was primarily a battle between opposing carrier based planes bombing and torpedoing surface vessels where the primary targets were the other carriers. A plane can hit a target 200 miles from its base, a battleship needed to get within about 16 miles.

Most battleships were decommissioned after WW2 because they were no match against a carrier battle group, and were only recommissioned a) in Vietnam where they were used for sea to shore bombardment and b) anti plane technology made successfully attacking a battleship escorted by its handlers next to impossible.


Just me, could be wrong.

Sinergy



Estring -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/6/2004 11:48:16 PM)

Where is this mess we are in in Iraq? This is not a mini- series that wraps up in 4 episodes. We have been there a little over a year. There is now a new government in place. Did anyone really expect it all to be wrapped up by now? You're dreaming in that case.
We still have troops in Germany, Japan and South Korea. How many years has it been now? It seems to me that things in Iraq are going along about how they should be.



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/7/2004 12:19:33 AM)

quote:

Where is this mess we are in in Iraq? This is not a mini- series that wraps up in 4 episodes. We have been there a little over a year. There is now a new government in place. Did anyone really expect it all to be wrapped up by now? You're dreaming in that case.
We still have troops in Germany, Japan and South Korea. How many years has it been now? It seems to me that things in Iraq are going along about how they should be.


Well, Estring, I predicted from the outset that we would be stuck in a war quelling an active and armed resistance, taking thousands of casualties and using "number of rebel soldiers killed" as our primary statistic for pacifying the country for years on end until we elect a president with the cajones to realize we have no business being there, and who has enough love of American troops to bring them home safe, at which point we slink off home to sulk while the rest of the world worries about the sanity of the United States populace.

It was not until I really studied the Vietnam war that I learned to deeply admire Nixon.

Last I checked the Germans, Japanese, and Koreans were not killing US troops. If the US leaves Korea, North Korea invades 1/100000th of a second later.

Not sure who we are defending against in Germany and Japan, but I am willing to go along with it because the locals dont mind our presence.

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/7/2004 12:22:23 AM)

quote:

The shrub took people's horror about 9/11 and twisted it into his personal agenda.


I have a friend in the military who said that from the moment Shrub was elected the military was preparing for war in Iraq.

THEN 9/11 happened.

Sinergy



jillwfsub4blkdom -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/7/2004 12:23:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheeba0228

I'm not trying to use a colloqueal statement but you dont seem to like anything about the US and if that is the case then i really do ask...... Why are you here?



That is what is so wonderful about this country. The citizens are allowed to disagree with their government and not be concerned about being thrown in jail. People might not like everything the USA government chooses to do but that has nothing to do with not being happy about the rights and freedoms we are allowed here.


jill



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/7/2004 12:49:56 AM)

quote:

That is what is so wonderful about this country. The citizens are allowed to disagree with their government and not be concerned about being thrown in jail. People might not like everything the USA government chooses to do but that has nothing to do with not being happy about the rights and freedoms we are allowed here.


Thank you, jillwfsub4blkdom.

The beauty of continually throwing out an emotional argument is you are never required to prove you use any part of your brain than the adrenal gland to make your point.

Somebody contradicts you, adrenal dump, more irrelevant verbal twaddle, and...

Victory?

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go...

Sinergy



iwillserveu -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/7/2004 5:33:03 AM)

quote:

We shouldn’t be in Iraq.


Why? I'm serious. We are there now. Do you propose we just, "oops, sorry for the mess. Bye-bye."

Yes I know most people are not going to risk their son's life to stabilize Fallujah. Will their son risk his life so his three sons don't have to go back and clean up the mess he left because you, Sinergy, insisted he not finish the job?

I agree with you. We should not be there in the first place, unfortunately we are there.

The reason we are there is because the incumbent biased media wanted to give us one more phony reason to think there is a spit's worth of difference between the Republicrats and the Demicans.

(Test for the for difference. One party is for gay marriage and one against it. One party is for Iraq and one against it.

Test for relevance: Does that effect me as much as, say, the farm bill? [Republicrats for big government!])

Which Ivy League Billionaire are you voting for?

I heard Ralph Nader speak on NPR. (I'm a Libertarian, not a Green, but he makes some good points sometimes.) People in slam-dunk states like Texas or Massachusetts are free to vote their conscience. People in other states have to slavishly vote, um, what is the opposite of conscience.



iwillserveu -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/7/2004 5:37:40 AM)

quote:

A lot of people have weapons which can blow up cities. Do you honestly believe
that Saddam was a clear threat to the US in any way, shape, or form? Possibly,
he did disrespect Bush Sr., but if one of Bush Sr's homies or family went out and
killed somebody who disrespected Bush Sr. in this country, they would be thrown
in jail.


Huh? Disrespect? Should I link to a CNN article about the assination plot?
Let me get this straight. I try to kill my ex-wife and I disrespect her? What is it whe I call her the moneygrubbingicequeenbitchslutwhorecunt?[:)]



iwillserveu -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/7/2004 5:44:18 AM)

You ignored this one. Sinergy, your rhetorical flourishes are not defensible. (If you value your fingers, stop waving your arms.[:)])

quote:

quote:

Sure, what Saddam did or didnt do may have been bad, but is it any worse than Pakistan, North Korea, South Africa in the 1970s, China in the 1990s, Sri Lanka, etc.

Sinergy,

I know you were trying to be funny, but...

You want to fight China? Go ahead.

North Korea has hostages in South Korea and Japan. (Seoul is in conventional artillary sights and would last about 5 minutes before completely rubble in a totaly conventional war.)

South Africa did not have France and Germany leading the sanction breaking.

Pakistan is on our side right now, so is India.

Sri Lanka? News to me. How about England, France, and Russia. (Hint: if you invade Russia do it in early spring. )



iwillserveu -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/7/2004 5:44:23 AM)

And everyone ignores your post too.[:)]

quote:

3 nuclear missile tips were found buried under like 6 feet of sand in concrete tubes a couple weeks ago

over a month ago there was a roadside bomb that had serin gas in it - and I really doubt the guerillas mixed it up in the field kitchen of wherever they are hiding


Can you post links from "liberal" media about that. (You know so they can't attack the source and say, "Of course they said that.")



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/7/2004 7:06:37 AM)

I dont have the links for it i causght it on MSNBC as a blurb while at work. My apologies I shall try harder to post from internet sources.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/7/2004 7:10:51 AM)

I agree that it is one of the basic rights that we have as to disagree with theis Gov't or its citizens or anyone for that matter, yet i seriously do question why do people stay if they hate it that much? I would not choose to live somewhere I am not in favor with. People rip on this country yet not once can they recommend a better place to be. All I'm trying to understand is why do people stay in such a terrible place? I dont understand why some people choose to live in a barren desert either, unfortunately I'm not in a position to ask them as they dont get around places I am very much.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/7/2004 7:17:12 AM)

quote]Not sure who we are defending against in Germany and Japan, but I am willing to go along with it because the locals dont mind our presence.

See this is the hard part, becasue more than half the locals want us there, and the others would rather kill us. So what do we do abandon those asking for our help just to appease those that would kill us?

quote:

Last I checked the Germans, Japanese, and Koreans were not killing US troops. If the US leaves Korea, North Korea invades 1/100000th of a second later.


Do you really think it would be any different in Iraq? If we leave 1/100000th of a second later the Government would be overrun by terrorists and warring factions of the public. there would be no nice live and let live. Once we were out of Iraq they would turn to our forces in Egypt, then in Turkey. If your objective is to get everyone to stop hating the US its not possible.



jillwfsub4blkdom -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/7/2004 7:21:01 AM)

i am sorry but i find it extremely rude and takes audacity to question why we are in this country. we dare to criticize because we have that right. Just because we are not in favor of everything that goes on, does not mean that this country doesn't allow us more freedoms and opportunities than any other country.

jill



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