RE: write and read the right rant (Full Version)

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cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 7:31:44 PM)

quote:

quote:


If your objective is to get everyone to stop hating the US its not possible.


Straw man argument. Not interested in engaging in that with you. Next!


Then what is your objective?



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 7:43:41 PM)

quote:

Iraq not only wasn't the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, they had NOTHING to do with them.


You are a fool to believe that. Money trails have been found between Iraq and Al-Qaida. Training facilities in Iraq were used to train the organizations troops, weapons were furnished by Iraq, and the attack was praised by Saddam. Like I said though it wasnt Masterminded by Iraq. Iraq probably had no idea it was going to happen, but to say that they were not allied with Al-Qaida thats foolish.

quote:

The US had no business invading a soverign nation, especially based on lies and obfuscation. Oh, wait....it was ALL about business...so ok, they had business, but no legitimate reason or right.



Look at several posts in this thread and you'd be ignoring the truth to say that statement again. Its already been shown that the WMD reason was true and reason enough. As for buisness do you really think that war was started because it was good buisness? C'mon now that a fools logic.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 7:45:06 PM)

So what you are saying is you will stay as long as those rights and freedoms remain but you wouldnt do anything to support or protect those rights and freedoms?



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 7:53:23 PM)

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Which half want us there?

Answer my question please. Why is it the responsibility of the United States to go around invading sovereign nations?


The half that cower inside occupied areas fearful of losing their new liberation. If the whole country was against us do you really think we would stand a chance, we are not there to slaughter every Iraqi just to protect those that seek our help.

We've been through this. It is the resposibility of the US because we are bigger and more powerful and to ignore the injustices that we can prevent would be criminal not by law but by human decency. Remeber the whole we must protect those that cant protect themselves thing. I answered that question a long time ago. Read it again and again maybe it will make more sense.

We dont go around just invading nations on a whim, there are and were very good reasons for going to war with Iraq. Of which they have been posted in other messages in this thread.



SherriA -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 7:53:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheeba0228
You are a fool to believe that.
I'd say that you're a fool to believe the crap they're feeding you, but I'm not that rude.

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Money trails have been found between Iraq and Al-Qaida.
There are money trails between the US and Iraq too....or have you conveniently forgotten all the money, weapons and training that the US funded there not all that long ago?

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Training facilities in Iraq were used to train the organizations troops,
Yeah, and? The terrorist pilots were trained in teh US, at US flight schools. So, then, the US must be tied to Al Qaida too then, hm? At least according to your logic....

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weapons were furnished by Iraq,
the US furnished weapons to Iraq too. What's your point?

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to say that they were not allied with Al-Qaida thats foolish.


You obviously haven't done much reading about the Taliban. You should educate yourself about their beliefs before you start calling people fools.

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As for buisness do you really think that war was started because it was good buisness? C'mon now that a fools logic.


Yes, that is what I believe, at least in part. As for it being fool's logic, well, the damned war was started by a fool, so what kind of logic do you expect?



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 8:06:50 PM)

Again I disagree with you on a few points but very well thoght out.


The US is not disallowing all nations the right to assist in rebuilding the nation. From what I can tell it works like this. The US has asked for aid from several nations and they have refused. Now maybe they are asking for assistance from nations they know will refuse just to keep it the way it is, I dont know. However the nations that have been barred have been on this rational.

We are not allowing entry because they are offering no aid or military support. So why should we let in others to profit when they offer no aid or military support. The nations that offer aid and support should be the first to have a chance at the rebuilding contracts. Now that would give a very bad PR rep, that does not mean it is unfair though. Japan offered military support and aid, yet when they were asked to help in the rebuilding they declined. Why? I dont know and I dont really care. The same in other countries as well. However countries like the England who have assisted both monetarily and militarily I think should be given the first opportunity to take part in the contracts that will help rebuild that nation.

But I do agree the US needs to do a better PR job on this. They are catching a very very bad rap for the whole thing prison scandal and all. Especially people that just take for granted what they see in the 7 o'clock news and in the newspaper without doing their own research. Present company excluded of course.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 8:11:49 PM)

thank you for the back up on that one.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 8:16:09 PM)

I'm not saying people should be thrown in jail or tossed out of the country for having different ideas, it was an honest question that if it is so bad here why stay? I think people can disagree but should also be a bit more thankful for those rights and freedoms, and a little more appreciative of those that put their live on the line day after day to protect peoples rights to free speech.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 8:36:18 PM)

As someone who IS IN the Military and has many friends IN the Military and some IN Iraq I can say that the military has always been planning and prepping for a war in the Middle east not necessarily in Iraq though. The Middle East is the hotbed of violence in this world right now and if a war was going to be fought that was the most likely location. So I would say I have a bit of a unique perspective on this. 9/11 was all it took to push this country over the edge. And FYI the military was preping for a war in teh Middle East long before Bush was Pres. we have been prepping ever since the FIRST war Desert Storm. Ever since then its been about preping for war over there, we just never stopped preping. Its called the 3 theater mandate and it states that the US Armed Forces must be prepared to defend their positions and their allies psotions on 3 different fronts at the same time. Meaning if we had to go to war with Iraq, N. Korea, and Cuba all at the same time the US must be prepared to handle that threat. Thats why waging war is not done on a whim. That mandate was put into effect since WWII and has been kept ever since. So for those people that think we go around acting like bullies just remember the US is using less than 1/3rd of its available power. And at this point all orders are Defensive we are not attacking anymore only Defending our positions over there. Any attacks that are done now are strictly in retaliation.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 8:41:29 PM)

quote:

On a related note, the Vietnam war lasted as long as it did because of a widespread fear that if the US pulled out the Chinese would invade and cut off the oil pipeline to Japan.


Why is it that everyone thinks wars are about oil? I have never seen any evidence of that. Nor heard that from anyone. Oil is not the motivation that everyone would like to believe. If oil were that big of a concern dont you think there would be a harder push to rely on alternate energy sources?



SherriA -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 8:45:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheeba0228
If oil were that big of a concern dont you think there would be a harder push to rely on alternate energy sources?


Who needs alternate energy sources when the US can just go in and run roughshod over sovreign nations anytime it wants control of their oil supply?



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 8:59:40 PM)

quote:

I'd say that you're a fool to believe the crap they're feeding you, but I'm not that rude.


Its not from what I've been told but from what I know and what I've researched.

quote:

There are money trails between the US and Iraq too....or have you conveniently forgotten all the money, weapons and training that the US funded there not all that long ago?


I never said there wasnt a trail to the US, we're just not hiding ours, and we're not giving to a terrorist organization that acts independant of world recognized governments. Giving money and arms to a country that is recognized is one thing. Giving them to a bunch of guerillas that operate without answering to anyone and without respect for how their actions afect teh rest of the world is quite another. If you cant see the difference between two countries exchanging funds and a country and a terrorist cell then maybe you should seek some teachings on the difference.

quote:

Yeah, and? The terrorist pilots were trained in teh US, at US flight schools. So, then, the US must be tied to Al Qaida too then, hm? At least according to your logic.


Again they came under false pretenses into this country, they were here on expired visas, and they were not trained by the US government to attack another country so your arguement has no basis. Nor do we train to attack non military targets.

quote:

the US furnished weapons to Iraq too. What's your point?


Again why cant you see the difference between a government and a terrorist organization. The US does not assist terrorist organizations. If we were supplying the IRA with weapons and money it would be a different story. Again you arguement has no basis for comparison.

quote:

You obviously haven't done much reading about the Taliban. You should educate yourself about their beliefs before you start calling people fools.


What the fuck does my comment about your foolish assumption have to do about the Taliban and their religion? I am very throughly educated on Muslim Religion. The true Muslim, the one where one of the worst things you can do is to take anothers life.

quote:

Yes, that is what I believe, at least in part. As for it being fool's logic, well, the damned war was started by a fool, so what kind of logic do you expect?


This war was started back when Iraq attacked Kuwait if you believe any differently then you are a fool. Especially if you think its about Oil.



SherriA -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 9:05:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheeba0228

Again why cant you see the difference between a government and a terrorist organization. The US does not assist terrorist organizations.


Ummm...wake up cheeba...the US has indeed funded terrorist organizations, when it was expedient for them. If you think otherwise, then you're either completely naive, or you've not done much research.

You're obviously not willing or able to see outside the "party line", so my participation in this discussion is done. Enjoy spewing your rhetoric...I'll not be reading it any further.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 9:09:36 PM)

quote:

Who needs alternate energy sources when the US can just go in and run roughshod over sovreign nations anytime it wants control of their oil supply?


The US is not controlling the Iraqi oil fields. Prove me wrong and I'll buy you a tank of gas whenever you run out.


quote:

.Ummm...wake up cheeba...the US has indeed funded terrorist organizations, when it was expedient for them. If you think otherwise, then you're either completely naive, or you've not done much research.

You're obviously not willing or able to see outside the "party line", so my participation in this discussion is done. Enjoy spewing your rhetoric...I'll not be reading it any further.


My vision works quite well I'm just asking for something to back up your acusations. Something other that a skeptical conspiracy theorists words.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 9:13:07 PM)

I'm not saying the US is perfect, i have backed up my points with research and historical facts, while all you throw out is thoughts, ideas, and theorys I ask you for proof once and you disengage the debate. Sounds more to me like you have no proof of your accusations than anything else.



Estring -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/8/2004 11:52:02 PM)

Some people want to believe what they want, facts be damned. It's funny how some people will swear up and down that they love this country, yet all they do is rip it apart. It would be the same as someone saying " I love my wife", yet all you hear is how fat and ugly she is.
This country is not perfect, but I would love to hear anyone tell me what country has done more good for this world. We may not always live up to our high ideals, but this country is the standard bearer for those ideals.



jillwfsub4blkdom -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 12:32:20 AM)

Estring,
i think my problem with some of the USA's actions are that the public's money could be spent with more worthwhile endeavors. Yes, the USA has done alot of good yet they blatantly ignore situations because it doesn't have the economic outcome they hope to get from their presence in Iraq.



darkinshadows -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 4:19:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheeba0228

No matter who was in office after 9/11 with all the hype and support behind the president he could have invaded Canada and people would have been o.k.


US officials and goverment agencies knew that something was going to happen. They were both informed and warned. What did they do? Did they tell their people?...Did they inform everyone?... Did they explain the precautions to take? Did they take precautions themselves? ...No matter what good people think the GOVERMENT does or how much people know what good they do...the US Goverment do rely on one thing and one thing only. Secrecy. Ignorance is bliss... until the inevitable happens (9/11). Then... and only then, do they take action.

Who funded and effectively placed Saddam into power?

Who helped train and funded Bin Laden?

Who has dropped nuclear weapons upon innocent civillians?

Which countries have documented human rights violations against them?

Which country emits MORE greenhouse gases than any other country in the world and refuses to have anything to do with the kyoto agreement, trying to bring about its downfall and labeling it (along with russia)totally ineffective (even though numerous other countries are fighting to keep theres in check) because its worried about its own economic growth??


quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

You would have Communism, Nazism and Radical Islam fighting to own the world. The United States has done more good for this world than any country in history. We give more aid to other countries, we save other countries asses ( France ), and we understand that evil needs to be confronted and defeated.



In WWII... the reason the USA joined, wasnt to fight 'Nazis' or communism, but simply because the japanese bombed them. Otherwise they would have simply kept out of it (read your History... espically econminc history of the US during WWII) Not because they wanted to be heros and save the free world.*RMES*

Please take pride in Your own country... but also be informed... dont rely on hollywoods version on History. The USA isnt God, and shouldnt be playing God... (even though Bush has compared Himself to God)... no country has the 'right' to invade or bomb or destroy another.... You can defend it verbally with misplaced facts and guarrenteed known facts... but two wrongs dont make a right and you just end up flogging a dead horse(omgosh I am turning into parablesayingwoman).

quote:

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
—George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004



darkinshadows -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 4:39:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheeba0228

I'm not saying the US is perfect, i have backed up my points with research and historical facts, while all you throw out is thoughts, ideas, and theorys I ask you for proof once and you disengage the debate. Sounds more to me like you have no proof of your accusations than anything else.


quote:

My vision works quite well I'm just asking for something to back up your acusations. Something other that a skeptical conspiracy theorists words.


Forgive me... but I havent seen You post any information to back up your 'research'... yet you are asking others to? Would You be so kind to post Historical links and information links on your research as well? I would like to see both sides if I can.

Thank You for reading this.



ModeratorOne -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 7:33:45 AM)

If you want to discuss the points thats fine but please cut the name calling and flames or this post will get locked or pulled.

Personal attacks are not allowed.

Thanks,

ModOne



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