RE: write and read the right rant (Full Version)

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cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 7:42:42 AM)

The US does rely on secrecy I agree with that. The people inside the US in large dont want to know about the daily workings in the world. They want to go on with their lives like the world is a big happy cant we all get along kind of place. We who are in this debate are the ones who are willing to do the digging to find out otherwise.

quote:

Who funded and effectively placed Saddam into power?

Who helped train and funded Bin Laden? quote]

We did. Whats your point? But since when do Either of those have to do with the War now. I prefer to deal with the problems in front of me not focus on the mistakes in the past.

quote:

Who has dropped nuclear weapons upon innocent civillians?


So your saying we should have sent them a letter saying.....We would like to bomd your country with the largest single explosive devise ever concieved by man. This will in turn leave the city in ruins for teh forseeable future and make the land unusable for future generations. So we would kindly ask that you remove all innocent civilians from Hiroshima and please move your existing forces into that city for better effectiveness. Thank you.

PS we will be doing this on Nagasaki too so please take the same precautions there.

Yeah that would have gone over real well. I'm sure they will just comply with our requests.

quote:

Which countries have documented human rights violations against them?


China.

Greenhouse gasses???? Since when is this thread about a hippie movement? I thought we were talking about the War in Iraq? Maybe I'm wrong but can we stay germaine to the issues. Start that as a new thread somewhere else and I'll back you up on that point O.K.?


And the Us did not get into WWII just because of the bombing of Pearl Harbor that was what triggered. The US was already making preparations that if the UK fell we would have to go in. And if it was only about Japan why did we stay in and fight the Germans in Europe if it was all about the bombing of Pearl Harbor? Think about that before you go speaking of matters that you dont know about.


The world is not at easy as o.k. nobody fight anymore we need to all make peace and love not war. You do that and next thing you know another countries army will be marching across our soil. I wonder if that will be enough reason to fight?



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 7:43:35 AM)

get back to that tonight I have to get to work. but be rest assured I'll repost my posts and others posts. just for you.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 7:44:04 AM)

well put and well spoken.



darkinshadows -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 10:32:49 AM)

quote:

Original cheeba0028

We did. Whats your point? But since when do Either of those have to do with the War now. I prefer to deal with the problems in front of me not focus on the mistakes in the past.


There are no mistakes... only lessons to be learned from. To shut ones eyes to the past is to risk the future.




quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorOne

If you want to discuss the points thats fine but please cut the name calling and flames or this post will get locked or pulled.

Personal attacks are not allowed.

Thanks,

ModOne



Angel completely agrees with what You have said... and only hopes that You have just added onto the end of the thread and that this isnt aimed directly to her. If it is, please mail me and I will endeavour to correct my mistake. Thank You for reading this.

And that said...



quote:

Original cheeba0228

And the Us did not get into WWII just because of the bombing of Pearl Harbor that was what triggered. The US was already making preparations that if the UK fell we would have to go in. And if it was only about Japan why did we stay in and fight the Germans in Europe if it was all about the bombing of Pearl Harbor? Think about that before you go speaking of matters that you dont know about.


Everyone has the right to speak their mind...free speach... first amendments an all that... Including Yourself... Including others... However, If You cannot take an informed opinion without personally attacking it or becoming agitated then I am not going to respond anymore because as mods have stated....flaming and personal attacks cannot be tollerated by them, and as an individual nor will I.

I wish You blessings and hope You find inner peace.



basiasubrosa -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 10:53:28 AM)

<in as disarmingly soft, modest and pensive a tone as can be possibly conveyed online>
(not that that's going to do much, but i thought i'd try, anyways....)[&o]

So, i'm feeling rather guilty that this big hullabaloo of an international policy bonfire-fest started with a (what i thought was) innocent comment i made about media coverage of the Iraq war. I guess this is a feeble attempt at reconciliatory penance.....

Personally, i've learned a lot, been provoked to think a lot, and truly appreciate all the information and arguments and challenges everyone has brought to the table. Special thanks to Cheeba, Sinergy, Iwill, Thanatosian (i hope i haven't forgotten people off the top of my mind....) for pointing out solid facts that i was not aware of before. However, it saddens me that so many valuable thoughts have been obscured in some rather pointed ad hominem attacks and inflammatory rhetoric, back and forth and all around. It seems that there is a lot of unnecessary hostility that has festered here between people who are obviously all caring, thoughtful and intelligent, as well as eager for discussion.

There are a multitude of very important and interesting points in this thread, that i would fain pursue further <bows reverently at everyone in the room>, but it seems that too many threads have been tangled together here, and all of them are emotionally doused in oil. (Iraq, Korea, Vietnam, China, Cold War, WWII, Latin America..... [sorely tempted to bring in the Peloponnesian War, just for the heck of it, but resisted <-- pathetically nerdy attempt at comic relief [:'(]]) Perhaps such is the nature and destiny of a "Rant" thread. If that is the case, i would be most grateful if we could reconvene in separate "rational discussion" threads on each specific issue, as i, at least, most certainly have much to learn and ask about. But perhaps we all need to rest and cool down a little first? <timid smile>

I do hope i haven't stepped on any toes here, and if so, i beg pardon.

In peace and good will, and most humbly,
basia



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 11:39:36 AM)

quote:

(I could be wrong, but i think that's what Sinergy tried to say earlier, about getting allies involved, etc. I don't quite recall him saying that we should just leave, pronto. )


I dont think we should be there in the first place. This is not synonymous with the statement "we should just leave," which I never said.

Now that we are there I dont see any good outcomes, particularly with the current administration. They dont know how to make friends or compromise. I am more than willing to listen to any examples to the contrary if you have any.

Sure, North Korea can hit Japan and the invasion of South Korea would be over by noon if it started at 8am.

But, what happens next? The North Koreans can only stand up to the US, etc., with China's blessing, which they will not get. So nuking Japan (or anybody else) or invading South Korea is not something which will have good outcomes for North Korea.

Why?

China historically (6000+ years) has only given a rat's keister about the rest of the world if it directly affects China. Getting into a war with the US or anybody else screws up their economy, and they will NOT risk that to save a rabid leader of North Korea.

quote:


No not all just the ones that lie to us, attack us, sponsor terrorist activities against us, harbor international fugitives from us, threaten us, use our aid resources to buy weapons and fund wars, disobey the will of the UN, make an active effort to prevent weapons inspections to ensure compliance with international law, and kill unarmed civilians with illegal weapons of mass destruction. Just those countries Sinergy just those that fulfill all those categories.


Well, there are any number of countries who are our friends who have done one more more of the things on this list and were not invaded.

The US operates out of self-interest, like everybody else on the planet, and attempting to make Iraq, or Vietnam, or Somalia, or Grenada, or Afghanistan out to be done for some higher nobler purpose is not proven by history.

But time will tell, I suppose.

Sinergy



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 4:57:05 PM)

I'm not trying to be unsultion but rather compimenting when I say that is the most intelligent statement I have heard you make i congratulate you and am impressed by your well thought out point. And I agree that China has kind of or rather has been interested in only what directly affects itself. Also as a note it should be said that no one in history has ever been able to conquer and hold China. Its too big with too many people.

quote:

Well, there are any number of countries who are our friends who have done one more more of the things on this list and were not invaded.


True but how many have done all those things on that list and have not been invaded by the offended party? Its not like Iraq under Saddam did a select few of those they did ALL of those.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 5:01:25 PM)

I appreciate the poly war humor I chuckled inside a little. And although I do disagree with some points that you have made aI do agree also that they are very well thought out and very valid points. I enjoyed speaking with you on this topic. I also wish to say that I agree with a lot of your points on the media and that I dont think all this heart felt banter was because of you.



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 5:36:30 PM)

Hello,

quote:

The US is not disallowing all nations the right to assist in rebuilding the nation. From what I can tell it works like this. The US has asked for aid from several nations and they have refused. Now maybe they are asking for assistance from nations they know will refuse just to keep it the way it is, I dont know. However the nations that have been barred have been on this rational.


The US also asked other nations to support them in their invasion.

Only 2 did, the rest were opposed to invasion and preferred to rely on diplomatic measures.

Diplomatic methods were not overly effective. But the invasion really didnt turn out all that great for anybody either.

quote:


Why is it that everyone thinks wars are about oil? I have never seen any evidence of that. Nor heard that from anyone. Oil is not the motivation that everyone would like to believe. If oil were that big of a concern dont you think there would be a harder push to rely on alternate energy sources?


Reread my sentence please, I did not say it was "about oil" specifically, I said it was to prevent the Red Communist Menace (read: Chinese) from being able to block the straits nearby and preventing oil from travelling eastward to Japan and the US circa 1950 and later.

As you no doubt have read, McCarthy insisted this would happen shortly after the Soviet Union and China put aside 6000 years of warfare and animosity, embraced True Communism, combined to wipe out the scourge of centralized control of capital, and spread their Communist ideology planetwide.

It is important for this discussion because most of his justifications to support his beliefs were not based on any sort of empirical evidence, and his emotional arguments and jingoistic paranoia ruined the lives of a lot of people.

quote:


Then what is your objective?


Please reread my posts. I have already stated my objectives any number of times and they are not "to get people to stop hating the US" as you claimed they are.

On a more pertinent note, the use of emotional arguments, epithets, insults, and condescending vague statements is rather cute when kindergartners are fighting over whose turn it is to play on the swing set, but really not overly appropriate for public discourse. In my humble opinion.

quote:


weapons were furnished by Iraq,


Actually, it is entirely possible that the box cutters used in the 9/11 hijackings were furnished by Home Depot.

We should invade them too.

quote:


The true Muslim, the one where one of the worst things you can do is to take anothers life.


Who exactly are the "true muslims?"

Would that be the followers of Shi'a, who follow a sect which splintered off from the main branch of Mohammedism in antiquity? The ones who refuse to have anything to do with Sunni, such as those who are the majority in Iran, Afghanistan, etc, and consider the splitting off from Mohammed, etc., by their first Mullah because Mohammed was not devout enough, as the dawn of their religion.

Or are the true Muslims the followers of the Sunni branch who are a direct descendant religion from the prophet Mohammed, who have their majority (population-wise) in Indonesia, were the ruling branch in Iraq under Saddam, and used poison gas against rebel followers of the Shi'a sect in his own country?

Please clarify.

Thank you,

Sinergy



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 6:02:41 PM)

quote:

Diplomatic methods were not overly effective. But the invasion really didnt turn out all that great for anybody either.


The attack on Iraq was an enormous success at least by military and political standards. The PR was a giant Flop. The original objectives of the war before they were obscured by the media and by Bush changing his story so many times were.

Remove Saddam and the Baathist party from pwer.....success

Remove the threat of WMD's from Iraq......success

Install a permanant gov't that is ruled and represented by a individual from each of the major groups.....success.

Allow investigators freedom to track money, weapons, resources and personnel.....success.

None of that was achieved by diplomacy regardless of several attempts over dozens of years.

quote:

Actually, it is entirely possible that the box cutters used in the 9/11 hijackings were furnished by Home Depot.


Enough of the smart ass again please try and stay on subject. Iraq furnished weapons to terrorist organizations that has been established. And I'm not talking about the box cutters. And why are you making seem as though the US invades on a whim dont you think these things were very well thought out first? You dont invade or make war on a whim. You do it when all other opportunities have failed.

True Muslims refer to the underlying teachings of the Koran. No matter what sect of the religion you go to the underlying message is the same. So is the book that is read from. I dont want to turn this into a thological debate on the nature of the islamic religions. I dont know of anywhere in any religion that is accepted worldwide that teaches its followers to kill another. The Koran lists sisns much in the same way the bible lays out its 10 commandments and one that stays the same everywhere is Thou shall not kill. Anybody who claims to speak directly with God, Allah, Jehova, Buda, or even Zeus to me is off their rocker. Especially those that take a excerpt from a holy text and twist it to their ways. Read the book yourself and tell me if you see anywhere that it lists to kill another.



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 6:25:50 PM)

Hello,

quote:

Install a permanant gov't that is ruled and represented by a individual from each of the major groups.....success.


We said the same thing about the Diem government in 1965.

They are only in power because of US troops in country.

We leave, that government will fail within 2 weeks.

That is not what I would call a success "establishing an enduring popular government."

quote:

Enough of the smart ass again please try and stay on subject.


I am not even going to honor this peurile outburst by responding to it, since, from my
opinion, it is simply a deflection away from you having a coherent response and an effort to intimidate or start a flame war with me.

Not going to play.

quote:

True Muslims refer to the underlying teachings of the Koran.


I have read the Koran. It was part of my college education.

Now answer my question, please, because both the followers of the Shi'a and Sunni sects claim to follow the underlying teachings of the Koran, and both disagree with the analysis of this same work by the other. There are other fringe groups who also profess to be followers of True Islam, but I am going to stick with the two major factions.

I would like to know which particular set of Followers of True Islam you belong to.

I suggest you read the book The True Believer by Eric Hoffer.

quote:


Allow investigators freedom to track money, weapons, resources and personnel.....success.


Success?

Now being able to track guns and personnel certainly explains the profusion of bullets, bombs, rpgs, etc., which keep being fired at and killing US troops.

We did win the war. Just like we did in Vietnam.

We are losing the peace. Just like we did in Vietnam.

We had a perfect plan to go to war in both instances. We went in with superior firepower and blew up or killed anybody who shot back.

Then we painted big targets on people's helmets and said "shoot anything or anybody that fires at you first" and made them stand around for days, weeks, months at a time
in country while our soldiers kept coming home in body bags.

The US did not have even a poorly thought out plan for peace, and everything since the week holiday for our invasion troops has proven this.

I could be wrong, but I am not going to argue with you since you are apparently so completely certain in the validity of your own beliefs.

Enjoy!

Sinergy



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 8:24:38 PM)

this is where you have been believing too much of what you hear in the news? Again your calling this new government a failure before you have even given it a chance. Why?

We didnt win Vietnam, we never had a peace to protect. Besides once again I'll request that you stick to the Iraq war. As history while good for teaching is a poor measure of a country on the other side of the world. This war is so different from Vietnam that the arguement for that is a topic for another discussion. You may start that one if you like but please keep your comments confined to the topic and stop going off on tangents.

Are you expecting us to declare this fight a victory? I still think we are a long way off from declaring a victory. The plan going in was nothing like what you have described. Where do you get your info? Mine comes from being in the Military which trust be does not even take a dump unless every step of it is planned. Your just not high enough in command to know the details of it.



quote:

They are only in power because of US troops in country.

We leave, that government will fail within 2 weeks


Thank you for proving my point of why we have to be there right now. I enjoy you backing me up on that.

quote:

We had a perfect plan to go to war in both instances. We went in with superior firepower and blew up or killed anybody who shot back.

Then we painted big targets on people's helmets and said "shoot anything or anybody that fires at you first" and made them stand around for days, weeks, months at a time
in country while our soldiers kept coming home in body bags.


Reality check please? Do you have any proof that backs up your statement that this was in fact the US war plan?

I've never actually read that book but have heard of it, I'll try to check it out next week when I'm on my vacation.


As a note on the one True islam, I dont believe either faction has gotten it right. I live in Detroit that has the highest concentration of Arab community outside the Middle East. The Muslims here dont identify with any one part of Islam they are pulled together as one group. That to me is what in my mind is the True Islam. Since you asked.
If you had the chance to talk to them they are most grateful to the US for rescuing their families. When you ask them about why Iraqis keep fighting against America they will tell you that it is a popular belief that Saddam is still in Iraq and has not been captured. Most that are fighting are believing they are still following his orders. The Iraqi military or small parts of it are fighting but the citizens and people of Iraq ar pro-US. Sorry but that is the truth. They dont care about WMD's or international pressure they are happy because their lives are better and their hopes are higher now with us there.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 8:39:05 PM)

Here you go plus you can refer to posts #23252

For those that wanted sources for my info hope you like reading......

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040620-050700-2315r

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34841

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/6/20/163716.shtml

http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0407/25/a10-220277.htm

http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002.htm

http://www.iraqfoundation.org/studies/2002/asept/9_wmd.html

http://www.2la.org/syria/wmd.html

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0704/160566.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/1/11/141836.shtml

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/07/20030718-8.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83821,00.html



Sinergy -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 8:45:27 PM)

quote:

We didnt win Vietnam, we never had a peace to protect. Besides once again I'll request that you stick to the Iraq war.


We did have a peace to protect. We had to quell the Red Menace and Protect The Free Vietnamese Citizen. Have you read much about the Vietnam war?

The problem with sticking to the Iraq invasion is it tends to violate the idea that if you dont remember history you are doomed to repeat it.

The American Civil War should have taught people that charging artillery on horseback was a stupid idea. (Im thinking "duh")

So in World War 1 a lot of good men died charging artillery on horeseback because their leaders wanted to "stick to this war we are in right now" and not bother learning from anything which had happened prior to WW1. (Im thinking "duh")

The Germans learned from the trench warfare of WW1 to avoid getting bogged down in trench warfare and conquered most of Europe. The Germans did not learn (they wanted to "stick to this war we are in right now") from the Napoleonic war that attacking Russia was a stupid idea. (Im thinking "duh")

Korea, Vietnam, WW2, and Afghanistan should have taught the US that getting involved in a war of occupation was a no-win situation for the occupation forces. (Im thinking "duh")

Now we are in Iraq in a war of occupation which we are steadily losing. Sure, you can proclaim victory. Now go explain to the parents of all the people shipped home in body bags how we are suddenly victorious in our efforts to free the Iraqi people.

Let me know how that goes five years from now when the situation has not changed
and the death toll for American soldiers hits 5 digits and the cost of keeping our troops in country is bankrupting our economy.

The idea that people should not learn from history and previous experience is simply ludicrous. It is like insisting that all those people who actually know how to use a single tail on their submissive cannot possibly have anything to teach somebody wanting to use a single tail. You are perfectly within your rights to believe that anything good will actually result from us being in Iraq, but history does not support your claims.

Sinergy

p.s. And please dont waste my time insisting I am not supporting the American troops. I support them so much I want them brought home out of harms way. I dont support the Simian In Chief who put them there.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 10:12:17 PM)

I'm not a Bush supporter but you certainly make a good point for not supporting our troops. As a Matter of fact you should learn from history but the war in Iraq is nothing at all like and has nothing to do with Vietnam. It was 2 totally different reason for going to war. This was a war of Geurilla warfare. It was nothing like nor does it have anything to do with Vietnam. Name a war that is more similar at least. Lessons can be learned from history but the points you are making have nothing to do with and cannot be compared to this conflict.

Please explain by what measure we are losing the war of occupation? And who says its a war of Occupation? If anything the lessons learned are dont do a war half assed, and if your going to be there dont leave until the job is finished. Maybe you need to hear about US victories in the media, then the general public might believe this is a war we ARE winning. Until such a time the general public will only believe what is shown in nightline.

Once again please provide proof not just theories.



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/9/2004 10:30:42 PM)

just thought it funny as I sat here and nightline came on. Let me give you some highlights. First they had Kerry on and asked if he still supports the war. he replied "Yes i do and I stand by my decision to vote to go to war; although I would have handled the situation differently." O.k. I agree with that but then again who wouldnt have handled it differently. Then when asked about the Vietnam similarities he replied "This was is not like vietnam, no war that has occured was like vietnam. I dont want people to compare this to the war I was honored to serve in. I vehemently protest against the use of Vietnam as a staple in debates against the war in Iraq." HAHA!! Dont believe me go check it out. On nightline. Even the person you will obviously be voting for recinds your usage of Vietnam in debates. And by the way I do plan on voting for Kerry. But I look at the and support our efforts there. I dont doubt you care about the lives of our troops there, I just doubt you support their cause.



basiasubrosa -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/10/2004 3:43:10 AM)

Ho, hum. So, there are quite a few questions and thoughts i'd like to test, in response to several posts across all these many pages, but i think i'll bide my time yet for a while......

For now, i just need to make a few slight clarifications regarding Chinese history, eh, because i'm a stickler about things like that.

[nerd]
Officially recorded history only dates about 4600 years in China. Archeaological evidence keeps on pushing the age of various settlements, cultures, etc further and further back, but we only have 4600 years of clearly traceable history, with organized governments and all that jamble.

Within those 4600 years, the governing bodies have been predominately from the Han tribe (still the majority). Two major exceptions were the Mongolian Yuan Dynasty (1263-1367) and the Manchurian Ching Dynasty (1645-1911). Both the Mongolians and the Manchurians invaded and took over the governance of "China". Some of the Mongolians are integrated into "China", while others have their own nation. The Manchurians are fully integrated (part Han, part Manchurian here [:)]). Other than that, many other steppe, Central Asian, Siberian, SE Asian tribes/nations/entities have at some point or another taken over parts of what is known as "China" today.

Not that all this matters much in this thread. Just for reference.
[/nerd]

ps. Thank you for the gracious acknowledgement, Cheeba. I never felt personally attacked here, but it is still disturbing to see other people attack each other so.....



Thanatosian -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/10/2004 9:00:47 AM)

quote:

Let me know how that goes five years from now when the situation has not changed
and the death toll for American soldiers hits 5 digits


which would finally put the death toll for Iraq on a par with the death toll for day 1 of the Normandy invasion in WWII - not even counting all the other deaths in WWII in both the European and Pacific theaters of operation

to give a little historical perspective



cheeba0228 -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/10/2004 9:14:04 AM)

not to mention it might come close to the amount of lives destroyed by the 9/11 tragedy. Not just lives lost but lives destroyed. Also at the rate of death between the two (about 540 Iraqi soldiers lost to every 1 US soldier lost.) if we hit 5 digits in death toll, that mean that Iraq would have lost about 5,400,000. Then we wouldnt have to worry about a war of occupation because we would be the only people left in Iraq.



iwillserveu -> RE: write and read the right rant (8/10/2004 5:11:32 PM)

quote:

peurile outburst


methinks that may be ad hominem disguised. Drop the adjective "peurile" and you have a valid comment. Otherwise, kettle, this name calling will escalate.



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