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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 1:35:13 PM

thornhappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

FR:
Analysis: Biden pick shows lack of confidence

Did that group say the same thing about Bush's selection of Cheney for VP?

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 1:38:13 PM

SilverWulf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber
All I want is to know that the top 2% is paying their fare share, into a system that has allowed them to become so wealthy.

Others have asked without an answer, so I'll ask again... What would be 'fair'?

While you are thinking about that, here is some interesting data:

The top 1% includes anyone earning over $388,000 a year, they pay 39.89% of the entire tax burden.

The top 2-5% earn between $153,000 and $388,000, and pay 20.25% of the tax burden.

The top 6-10% earn between $109,000 and $153,000, and pay 10.65% of the tax burden.

Add it up to this point, and only 10% of the people paying taxes are paying over 70% of the tax burden, the remaining 90% of tax payers, those earning under $109,000 a year, are paying 30% of the burden.

Jump to... 11-25% earn from $64,000 to $108,000, and pay 15.47% of the tax burden.

This brings us up to 25% of taxpayers paying 86% of the tax burden, leaving 14% of the burden for the remaining 75% of tax payers, or those earning under $64,000 a year.

26-50%, those earning between $31,000 and $64,000 make up another 10.75% of the total tax burden.

Which adds up to 50% of tax payers paying 97.01% of the taxes.

Leaving 2.99% of the taxes to be paid by those earning under $31,000 a year.

So, how much MORE of the tax burden should be paid by those in the top percentiles?

note: data is from 2006, which are the latest available numbers from the IRS, and can be found here:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 1:50:08 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So you obviously agree then, that voting for an inexperienced candidate is a bad idea.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Can't remember, but then I have a tendency to block out horrible experiences in my life.

I hate to answer a question with a question, but you obviously believe George Bush was a disaster as president. So why would you support the parrot that sits on his shoulder?

I have doubts about Obama's experience too, but why would you want someone who has morphed his positions (can you say flip-flop) to mirror those of a failed presidency in order to gain the support of the far right of his party?

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 1:59:36 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

You know, I think this might have happened before. With a one-term governor who had never held national office much less had any foreign policy experience. His name escapes me though.

Sounds like Jimmy Carter. One term as Governor of Georgia, 1971-1975. He is the only "one-term governor" to occupy the Oval Office in the last 40 years.

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 1:59:43 PM

popeye1250

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SilverWulf, I think a national sales tax would be the most fair tax.
That way you're taxed on what you *buy*.
Of course wealthy people would probably be more against that than "regular" people because they *buy* a lot more than others.

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 2:12:13 PM

SilverWulf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

SilverWulf, I think a national sales tax would be the most fair tax.
That way you're taxed on what you *buy*.
Of course wealthy people would probably be more against that than "regular" people because they *buy* a lot more than others.

I totally agree, though I'd be surprised if it happens in my lifetime.

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 2:20:40 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Is Lehigh's opinion reflective of other erstwhile Democrats?

Since I'm neither a mind-reader nor a pollster, I have no idea.

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 2:31:30 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

You know, I think this might have happened before. With a one-term governor who had never held national office much less had any foreign policy experience. His name escapes me though.

Sounds like Jimmy Carter. One term as Governor of Georgia, 1971-1975. He is the only "one-term governor" to occupy the Oval Office in the last 40 years.

As you might recall Bush never completed his second term. Since you want to split hairs I will concede he was elected twice, so should I have called him a term and a half governor? Jesus!

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 3:06:17 PM

Sanity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I hate to answer a question with a question, but you obviously believe George Bush was a disaster as president. So why would you support the parrot that sits on his shoulder?

Bush has had his failings, trying too hard to get along with the left being one of them, spending far too much money being another - but nowhere have I said Bush was or is a disaster.

Carter was a disaster.

And I don't support McCain, either. I'd rather see a Conservative get in there. But better McCain than a far, far left Socialist, such as Obama.

quote:

I have doubts about Obama's experience too, but why would you want someone who has morphed his positions (can you say flip-flop) to mirror those of a failed presidency in order to gain the support of the far right of his party?

What McCain "flip-flops" are you referring to? Drilling offshore, after gas prices spiked? That's not a flip-flop, that's changing direction due to a changing reality! Again, he's not my top choice, I don't really care for him, but McCain is a steady hand, and I think he's fairly real and honest especially when compared to Obama.

Think of it - Obama threw his reverend under the bus. He threw his grandma under the bus. When he thought they weren't looking he threw rural folk under the bus (by telling his Hollywood friends that they "cling" to guns and religion). You can't trust Obama, he'll throw you under the bus for a dollar! By picking Biden, Obama threw a hell of a lot of his most adoring fans under the bus too, didn't he.

Junior Senator Obama couldn't even give us a straight answer regarding his thoughts on when a fetus becomes a human. Everything he says depends on who he thinks is listening, exactly like most other far left politicians. They can't tell us what they really think, because know they won't get elected if they do!

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/23/2008 3:21:03 PM >

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 4:06:11 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I hate to answer a question with a question, but you obviously believe George Bush was a disaster as president. So why would you support the parrot that sits on his shoulder?

Bush has had his failings, trying too hard to get along with the left being one of them, spending far too much money being another - but nowhere have I said Bush was or is a disaster.

Carter was a disaster.

And I don't support McCain, either. I'd rather see a Conservative get in there. But better McCain than a far, far left Socialist, such as Obama.

quote:

I have doubts about Obama's experience too, but why would you want someone who has morphed his positions (can you say flip-flop) to mirror those of a failed presidency in order to gain the support of the far right of his party?

What McCain "flip-flops" are you referring to? Drilling offshore, after gas prices spiked? That's not a flip-flop, that's changing direction due to a changing reality! Again, he's not my top choice, I don't really care for him, but McCain is a steady hand, and I think he's fairly real and honest especially when compared to Obama.

Think of it - Obama threw his reverend under the bus. He threw his grandma under the bus. When he thought they weren't looking he threw rural folk under the bus (by telling his Hollywood friends that they "cling" to guns and religion). You can't trust Obama, he'll throw you under the bus for a dollar! By picking Biden, Obama threw a hell of a lot of his most adoring fans under the bus too, didn't he.

Junior Senator Obama couldn't even give us a straight answer regarding his thoughts on when a fetus becomes a human. Everything he says depends on who he thinks is listening, exactly like most other far left politicians. They can't tell us what they really think, because know they won't get elected if they do!

So, let me understand this. Your defense of Bush is to say he was better than a Democratic president who left office 25 years ago??????????? WTF?

Now tell me why I should support a candidate who has vowed to continue the same policies that exist under Bush that you don't seem able to defend on their merits.

"Changing direction due to a changing reality". You're not related to Karl Rove by chance? That's the best spin I've ever heard. Did the realities also change after McCain:

1) spent years opposing the Bush tax cuts he suddenly grew so fond of when his nomination was on the line
2) supported the estate tax but, I guess in a miraculous epiphany, now believes it unfair
3) called the religious right, particularly Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, "agents of intolerance" but now is sucking up to Robertson and other evangelicals, even giving the commencement address at Falwell's Liberty University
4)opposed Bush's policy on indefinite detention of terror suspects as enemy combatants yet when the Supreme Court ruled to that effect he apparently forgot he had agreed with them and called it a horrible decision
5)supported abortion in cases of incest and rape, his position for years ( what do you think changed his mind?)
6) supported privatizing Social Security but now he's against it (lots of old people vote you know)
7)you've already mentioned drilling offshore (oil companies have deep pockets).

Really, I could name you 10-15 more issues he has reversed himself on without even trying hard. Funny that when a Democrat does that it is a sign of weakness and "flip-flopping" but for a Republican it is "changing direction due to a changing reality".

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 8/23/2008 4:16:01 PM >

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 4:20:13 PM

Sanity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

So, let me understand this. Your defense of Bush is to say he was better than a Democratic president who left office 25 years ago??????????? WTF?

No, my defense would be that he's better than Gore and better than Kerry - see popeyes' new thread about why Democrats are determined to lose.

quote:

Now tell me why I should support a candidate who has vowed to continue the same policies that exist under Bush that you don't seem able to defend on their merits.

I see nothing to support with either of these two candidates, except McCain isn't as Socialist as Barack Obama, and McCain isn't so wet behind the ears.

quote:

"Changing direction due to a changing reality". You're not related to Karl Rove by chance? That's the best spin I've ever heard.

The spike in fuel prices is hurting people, and McCain is aware of that. I see your boy Obama's the last one on that bus, by the way, so you hardly have room to scream Carl Rove at me here.

quote:

Did the realities also change after McCain:

1) spent years opposing the Bush tax cuts he suddenly grew so fond of when his nomination was on the line
2) supported the estate tax but, I guess in a miraculous epiphany, now believes it unfair
3) called the religious right, particularly Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, "agents of intolerance" but now is sucking up to Robertson and other evangelicals, even giving the commencement address at Falwell's Liberty University
4)opposed Bush's policy on indefinite detention of terror suspects as enemy combatants yet when the Supreme Court ruled to that effect he apparently forgot he had agreed with them and called it a horrible decision
5)supported abortion in cases of incest and rape, his position for years ( what do you think changed his mind?)
6) supported privatizing Social Security but now he's against it (lots of old people vote you know)
7)you've already mentioned drilling offshore (oil companies have deep pockets).

Really, I could name you 10-15 more issues he has reversed himself on without even trying hard. Funny that when a Democrat does that it is a sign of weakness and "flip-flopping" but for a Republican it is "changing direction due to a changing reality".

Provide the links to your assertions if you want any credibility here. Unless they're just opinions, then I just don't care.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/23/2008 4:23:10 PM >

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 4:20:31 PM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

So, let me understand this. Your defense of Bush is to say he was better than a Democratic president who left office 25 years ago??????????? WTF?

Now tell me why I should support a candidate who has vowed to continue the same policies that exist under Bush that you don't seem able to defend on their merits.

"Changing direction due to a changing reality". You're not related to Karl Rove by chance? That's the best spin I've ever heard. Did the realities also change after McCain:

1) spent years opposing the Bush tax cuts he suddenly grew so fond of when his nomination was on the line
2) supported the estate tax but, I guess in a miraculous epiphany, now believes it unfair
3) called the religious right, particularly Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, "agents of intolerance" but now is sucking up to Robertson and other evangelicals, even giving the commencement address at Falwell's Liberty University
4)opposed Bush's policy on indefinite detention of terror suspects as enemy combatants yet when the Supreme Court ruled to that effect he apparently forgot he had agreed with them and called it a horrible decision
5)supported abortion in cases of incest and rape, his position for years ( what do you think changed his mind?)
6) supported privatizing Social Security but now he's against it (lots of old people vote you know)
7)you've already mentioned drilling offshore (oil companies have deep pockets).

Really, I could name you 10-15 more issues he has reversed himself on without even trying hard. Funny that when a Democrat does that it is a sign of weakness and "flip-flopping" but for a Republican it is "changing direction due to a changing reality".

What reason did he give for opposing those tax cuts? I seem to remember something about all of the spending that was included in the bills.

I know you don't want to get into folks shunning certain religious leaders and then speaking at not their universities but actual church/ mosque. I think that one is a loser for you... Just sayin.

Want to talk about Senators that have changed positions surrounding SCOTUS rulings? Especially a "constitutional scholar and professor" who claimed one position and then flipped the other way when a ruling came out?? Another fun topic, feel free to start it if you want to discuss it.

Uhm, he still supports abortion in those cases. When does life begin, again? According to Obama it isn't after the baby is born and breathing on it's own. We can talk about this one if you like...

Claims of getting off of Foreign oil, need to be backed up with some sort of buffer, don't ya think? Or is 700Billion a year alright with you as long as it is going overseas, and not into the pockets of American oil companies....

I would be glad to discuss the changes in position of both candidates... are you game? Hope and change, are the messages of the Obama campaign.... I just hope to have some change left in my pockets if he is elected.

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 4:31:30 PM

rulemylife

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Provide the links to your assertions if you want any credibility here. Unless they're just opinions, then I just don't care.

[/quote]

My opinions? Do you know the first thing about the candidate you support? Do you really think I made this all up? It's been widely reported even by conservative sources (before you start blaming the liberal media).

Best yet, do your own research. Look up McCain's positions in 2000 and 2004 and compare them to now.

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 4:36:46 PM

Sanity

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I don't subscribe to the daily KOS so no, I haven't memorized all the talking points about all the horrors of John McCain. One thing about John McCain that I do know, that I'm well aware of, is that most Democrats INCLUDING Joe Biden swore up and down until just very recently that he would make a fine president. So, if you really want to discuss flip-flops, lets talk about that one first.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

My opinions? Do you know the first thing about the candidate you support? Do you really think I made this all up? It's been widely reported even by conservative sources (before you start blaming the liberal media).

Best yet, do your own research. Look up McCain's positions in 2000 and 2004 and compare them to now.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/23/2008 4:37:07 PM >

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 4:48:51 PM

Thadius

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Aww, c'mon. It is just easier to continuously spout talking points, eventually something will stick.

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 4:52:21 PM

Politesub53

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Im suprised he didnt pick Clinton, given the volume of support she has. Do any of you think this was a survival move. IE he sees Joe Biden as less of a threat ?

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 4:55:56 PM

BKSir

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In a way, yes. Hillary, although having a very strong following, also has a very large group of people that HATE her. Not dislike, no, I mean a deep and soul blackening loathing. Why? I don't know... She's not THAT bad. But, that's neither here nor there. It could have either been the best move he made, or the worst. In this scenario, not a good thing to gamble on. I know a lot of people that love Obama, and have flat out said, if he picks Hillary, they just won't vote.

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 4:56:45 PM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Im suprised he didnt pick Clinton, given the volume of support she has. Do any of you think this was a survival move. IE he sees Joe Biden as less of a threat ?

I think it was a huge mistake, to at least not make it look like she was in the running. Choosing Biden is not going to bring her supporters that weren't already supporting him over. I honestly think the choice was made so that Barrack could attempt to stay above the fray, as Biden is known to be a vicious attack dog when he has a target. Did you see the smile on his face as he stuck the knife in his friend repeatedly today?

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 5:01:12 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

So, let me understand this. Your defense of Bush is to say he was better than a Democratic president who left office 25 years ago??????????? WTF?

Now tell me why I should support a candidate who has vowed to continue the same policies that exist under Bush that you don't seem able to defend on their merits.

"Changing direction due to a changing reality". You're not related to Karl Rove by chance? That's the best spin I've ever heard. Did the realities also change after McCain:

1) spent years opposing the Bush tax cuts he suddenly grew so fond of when his nomination was on the line
2) supported the estate tax but, I guess in a miraculous epiphany, now believes it unfair
3) called the religious right, particularly Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, "agents of intolerance" but now is sucking up to Robertson and other evangelicals, even giving the commencement address at Falwell's Liberty University
4)opposed Bush's policy on indefinite detention of terror suspects as enemy combatants yet when the Supreme Court ruled to that effect he apparently forgot he had agreed with them and called it a horrible decision
5)supported abortion in cases of incest and rape, his position for years ( what do you think changed his mind?)
6) supported privatizing Social Security but now he's against it (lots of old people vote you know)
7)you've already mentioned drilling offshore (oil companies have deep pockets).

Really, I could name you 10-15 more issues he has reversed himself on without even trying hard. Funny that when a Democrat does that it is a sign of weakness and "flip-flopping" but for a Republican it is "changing direction due to a changing reality".

What reason did he give for opposing those tax cuts? I seem to remember something about all of the spending that was included in the bills.

I know you don't want to get into folks shunning certain religious leaders and then speaking at not their universities but actual church/ mosque. I think that one is a loser for you... Just sayin.

Want to talk about Senators that have changed positions surrounding SCOTUS rulings? Especially a "constitutional scholar and professor" who claimed one position and then flipped the other way when a ruling came out?? Another fun topic, feel free to start it if you want to discuss it.

Uhm, he still supports abortion in those cases. When does life begin, again? According to Obama it isn't after the baby is born and breathing on it's own. We can talk about this one if you like...

Claims of getting off of Foreign oil, need to be backed up with some sort of buffer, don't ya think? Or is 700Billion a year alright with you as long as it is going overseas, and not into the pockets of American oil companies....

I would be glad to discuss the changes in position of both candidates... are you game? Hope and change, are the messages of the Obama campaign.... I just hope to have some change left in my pockets if he is elected.

Sure, I'm game, but I think you miss my point. I used to have respect for McCain when he stuck to his ideals. I would have voted for him over Gore if he had won the nomination. Now he's realized this is his last shot and he is doing anything and everything to win regardless of whether it compromises his ideals. I have no respect left for the man.

I'm not really sure what your point was about the oil but I'm happy to contribute if you're starting a charitable foundation to help our struggling oil companies.

I'll get you a link on the abortion issue.

Tell me about the SCOTUS rulings. I assume you're talking about the democratic SOTUS who is running for POTUS and his SOTUS VPOTUS. As a registered VOTUS I sure would like to know.

As far as the religious thing, we seem to have two very different situations. In Obama's case he disavowed someone who made inflammatory remarks. The same is true for McCain. Only McCain recanted his own objections out of political expediency when he realized he needed the support of those he criticized. Hell of a "straight-talker".

And going back to your first point, his opposition to the cuts continued long after the bill was passed so it cannot be passed off as "pork" added to the bill. Another politically expedient move by a man desperate for his last shot at the presidency. Oh, excuse me, I mean POTUS.

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RE: It`s Joe Biden - 8/23/2008 5:02:12 PM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
Still waiting for anyone to present a list of first time US presidential candidates who already had direct hands on experience leading a country, dictating foreign policy, commander in chief of military operation in a war, young enough to be hip, old enough to be vastly more experienced, appealing to all voters on all issues, guaranteed to make the rest of the world like us...oh yeah, and with a good haircut.

Ike!

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