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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 1:29:31 PM

IvyMorgan

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*is now thinking*

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 1:30:51 PM

Raechard

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You must be right because you are wearing the magic leather waistcoat of dominance.

Why did you choose to wear that again? You did it to identify yourself as belonging to a certain group, nothing wrong with that but whose choice was it that to belong to that group you had to dress that way?

< Message edited by Raechard -- 8/25/2008 1:35:47 PM >

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 1:34:13 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan

I was off to a munch yesterday, and travelling up, I was asked by a friend of mine, did I think submissives had more control in a scene than was often thought.

I thought about it for all of a few seconds and then gave the same answer I always have. A submissive (and I'm using this term to apply to whomever is on the "bottom" in a given moment) is always the one in ultimate control.

He asked why, and I said... "Either the dominant is playing only as far as the submissive can take, so the submissive is in control, you rarely if ever hear dominants saying 'I want to/I did play as hard and as far and as long as I liked, screw the sub' whilst you tend to always hear, 'I watch my sub carefully and go only as far as they can take', 'my slave doesn't have a safeword, but I only push her as far as she can go' and so on. So those subs are in control in a round about way. Or you have a submissive with a scripted/negotiated scene, for example in public. Think of what percentage of public scenes end in a safe word... 50%, higher? In those scenarios, there's no pretense, the submissive is drawing the line of what goes and what doesn't. How many times does a dominant safeword, compared to a sub? Either a scene stops cos a sub says so directly, or because the dominant deems the sub has had enough, or because both have reached the place where they want to go. The submissive is always in control."

He agreed, but, I'm wondering if anyone else does?

Who is in control of your "play" relationship? When you take it apart, I mean.

In a 'play' relationship, while I am in control, the scene is negotiated, so it is a mutually pleasant undertaking. To me, though, scening is not the same animal as the "outside the scene" d/s relationship. Maybe the difference is so pronounced for me because of the things I do when I scene/play, and their variance from everyday living. Because the things I do in a scene are specific and may be harmful, I am cautious about doing damage that might result in hospitalization or extended damage. While I control our collared servants and bond-servants, when we are in scene, I am responsible for their physical and mental well-being at a different level -- I am acting on their bodies in a way that the body could consider hostile, and which the mind might have unpleasant reactions to. That is a completely different place for me than in a daily relationship where very little that I command or require could be deemed to actually -hurt- my servants. That is why, even if a servant has yielded to me as a bond-servant, and even if xhe has given up the right to agree or disagree to certain acts, by virtue of offering up all of hir life, I will -still- pay attention to hir when we are scening, and hir body/health/mental state will still control, in some measure, how the scene develops. That is just plain common sense.

Calla Firestorm

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 1:53:55 PM

WhiplashSmile2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

You must be right because you are wearing the magic leather waistcoat of dominance.

Why did you choose to wear that again? You did it to identify yourself as belonging to a certain group, nothing wrong with that but whose choice was it that to belong to that group you had to dress that way?

Will you just roll 2d20 and get on with it. Perhaps it will be a fumble instead of critical damage.

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 2:04:23 PM

Raechard

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OK but if it leads to my penis of destiny being bitten off by a dragon I'm not going to be happy.

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 2:05:09 PM

IvyMorgan

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My experience of D/s *relationships* is limited to observing others, and how they work their lives, it is very hard to call any of my past relationships "conventional" or D(M)/s.

I guess that's why I was limiting my answer to my friend's question to play/scene dynamics, be they casual play, play in clubs, or as CallaFirestorm was mentioning, specific scenes within a broader D/s (M/s) relationship.

It is interesting to read the replies from more of a "relationship" context, as opposed to a "play" context, and certainly welcome food for thought.

*wanders off thinking some more*

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 2:50:46 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan
Who is in control of your "play" relationship? When you take it apart, I mean.

I am in control of the play

First.... the girls never decide when play is done... I do

Second... I play until I am satisfied or until their bodies can't take any more.

Now... some might think that they decide when their bodies can't take anymore... this would be a wrong assumption. It is I who decides what to use, how hard to hit and how many times to hit.... If I want to play for a long time... then it might be wise to not hit as hard or not use something that will do as much damage... use a feather instead of a hammer. Swing at tenth of the power instead of full power etc. In the end.. .it is my choices that I am completely in control of that is giving me a changing situation to which I will make new choices based on the information I see from the changing situation.

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 3:18:10 PM

IvyMorgan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan
Who is in control of your "play" relationship? When you take it apart, I mean.

I am in control of the play

First.... the girls never decide when play is done... I do

Second... I play until I am satisfied or until their bodies can't take any more.

Now... some might think that they decide when their bodies can't take anymore... this would be a wrong assumption. It is I who decides what to use, how hard to hit and how many times to hit.... If I want to play for a long time... then it might be wise to not hit as hard or not use something that will do as much damage... use a feather instead of a hammer. Swing at tenth of the power instead of full power etc. In the end.. .it is my choices that I am completely in control of that is giving me a changing situation to which I will make new choices based on the information I see from the changing situation.

Thank You for this. Your second point in particular, is something I had not really spent much time thinking about before, though, on reflection, it's rather obvious. *smiles*

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 3:42:58 PM

blushingflower

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The whole line that the bottom is always in control is BS. Yes, in a scene, I have a lot of control- I negotiate, I have a safeword, I set the limits beforehand. And even then the top is the one who makes choices about what tools to use, when to switch, etc. I can influence that with my reactions, obviously, and I'm sure I could say "hey, switch to the other flogger please", but I'm not the boss.
But if I'm scening with my Dom? He decides that we're going to play, and how we're going to play. Again, how I'm reacting influences things, and I have a safeword, but he's in charge.
And as my friend says, if you've ever done something you didn't want to do because you made a commitment to obey, you know that's not a feeling of power, whether that's in play or in another situation.

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 3:44:32 PM

NeedingMore220

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It's my Dom who decides what play is going to be - I don't know going into the scene what his expectations or demands are going to be - how hard or softly he is going to hit, what parts of my body he will use, what he will want me to do, what he will want to watch, etc. I have trust that he's not going to abuse me, but beyond that, it's a mystery to me. Not much control for me going on there....just the way I love it to be.

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 3:50:21 PM

Paulnz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan

I thought about it for all of a few seconds and then gave the same answer I always have. A submissive (and I'm using this term to apply to whomever is on the "bottom" in a given moment) is always the one in ultimate control.

An astute observation, and accurate on certain levels. You can take it a step further and look at all the Doms who think they're in control, but in reality are being led around with their dicks on a leash by their ' sub.' The guys never, and will never, figure out that it is them on the leash and not the other way around. Having said that, this is not always the case and you'll find instances where the Dom is really that, but they're a lot scarcer than people will admit.

< Message edited by Paulnz -- 8/25/2008 4:04:43 PM >

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 3:56:11 PM

Evility

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I cannot argue with your point. Clearly any D/s relationship with a safeword or limits set by the submissive party automatically falls under this heading but you are correct to say the submissive retains the control. All submissives have that control. The key thing to remember is that all submissives do not exercise that control by limiting the activities or interrupting the scene. Some submissives walk in the door and consent and that is the last decision they make until it is over.

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 4:35:23 PM

sodsta

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I think both the Dom/me and the sub have control. To be honest, I think people who say the sub has no control, whether they be dominant or submissive, are simply deluding themselves. Having a safeword... any kind of safeword... is a form of control. Whether or not the sub feels like exercising that control is completely beside the point. The fact is safeword = control. The same with having the ability to walk away. The submissive has the power to walk away from a relationship whenever they want. The fact that they CHOOSE to stay is a form of control. Choosing to stay. Choosing to submit. If a person truly does not want to submit to you, there is nothing you can do to make them... well... short of kidnapping/GBH/rape/etc... and I doubt anyone wants that.

I hate the term "no limits". EVERYONE has limits. Tie a sub with "no limits" down, bring in a chainsaw and WATCH how quickly those limits appear.

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 4:42:25 PM

daddysliloneds

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the day that anyone tries to claim that i'm in control of things, especially if they see us interact and know the makings of our relationship, is the day that pigs fly

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 5:59:02 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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In a scene context, the top/d-type does tend to have more direct control. But this is not necessarily so- you can always top from the bottom, or let yourself go and make the bottom the active partner in a scene. In general though, the bottom is the passive/bound/directed/controlled and the top is the active/binding/directing/controlling person.

I find his justifications a little wonky- I take care of my car and watch it closely. Does that mean my car controls me?

When it comes to Ds relationships though, no one has control over the relationship. It's not about control, it's about authority.

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 6:00:14 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysliloneds
the day that anyone tries to claim that i'm in control of things, especially if they see us interact and know the makings of our relationship, is the day that pigs fly

You were in control of your fingers when you typed this post.

Again- not control, authority

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 6:01:50 PM

DarkSteven

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I like to think I'm in control, but it's not complete control.

She will influence play in three ways - by negotiations beforehand, by use of safeword, and by her reactions. But I am the one who
1. Takes her preferences/likes/dislikes/limits into account from negotiations and decides what will happen. If she wants bondage and I don't want to do it, it will not happen.
2. Hears her safeword and decides whether to continue at a reduced intensity, change to another activity, or stop play altogether.
3. Gages her reactions and decides if I bring her to orgasm, play harder, back off a bit, etc.

She has input, but I decide what to do with it.

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 8:41:45 PM

BitaTruble

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~FR~

Himself chooses the path .. I choose whether or not I am capable of walking it. He has the option of choosing whether or not I'm allowed to follow and whether or not I'm capable of walking it to his satisfaction. I don't stop scenes .. using a safeword doesn't stop a scene. It's simply a tool used to ensure he has all the information required to make the best choices for himself, the relationship, the scene, me and/or any/all of the above.

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 8:41:52 PM

catize

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S. often takes me to my limit and sometimes a bit beyond. I may scream and cry and beg, but when he is done, I am gooey and gushy and happy that he is pleased.
R., on the other hand, often stops before I want him to. I do not ask for more, I accept his decision..
I trust that they know me well enough by now to avoid harm. I trust them enough to talk about what was difficult for me and they will listen and help me process what took place and will continue to do what they want.
I am certain that if I asked S. to tone it down a notch, and asked R. to ratchet it up a bit, they would consider my requests. But we don’t worry overmuch about who ‘really’ is in control.
I trust that they want to continue our respective relationships, as do I

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RE: Who's in control? - 8/25/2008 8:55:32 PM

hopelessfool

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I am always in control of myself. In fact every mature adult is, Why?

When your pissed off do you throw a tanrum temper every time or at all? Many do not, they ususally control their reactions, as well as their emotions.

I control my dislike of an activity, its not very pleasing if I whine and moan about how I hate something. A Dom will control his temper and how he reacts to me.

I am always in control of my body, and to offer anyone control of myself, I first must be able to control myself. Example I cant offer control over my heartbeat? Why because I do not control it myself. I can offer control on how I move, on when I speak and when I dont, On particular thoughts and reactions. And I offer the authority of them to another person (as LA said) I still control everything I do, down to wither or not I follow an order. But my owners Authority over me, His thoughts his opinions his wishes of me matter, so because of such I follow his orders.

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