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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 10:09:21 AM

colouredin

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i think the prob may be that you are writing about submissives when you are Dominant how would you really understand all their motivations?

What about self loathing?
What about sexual fear?
What about confidence?
etc etc (sorry negative ones sprang to mind)

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Post #: 41

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 10:25:48 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

I am not sure I am looking to be acceptable to others...

this is an important motivation to understand and appreciate. Because it will have significant influence on the eventual outcome.

However,.. Knowing the Myers-Briggs as I do and the impact it has when applied in the proper situation... I think you base idea can provide some value.. However, the end product will dictate if value will be obtained or not.

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Post #: 42

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 10:51:56 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

How about sex drive as one of the motivating factors? I think that's a biggie.

Much like emotional transparency, sex drive is not, in my mind, a BDSM based motivation. If all other things are equal, it is my opinion that sex drive would be the same in or out of a BDSM relationship. My index focuses solely on BDSM based motivations.

Taggard

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Post #: 43

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 10:53:24 AM

colouredin

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ahhh so it should be motivations OF bdsm then rather than for

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Post #: 44

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 10:57:54 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

i think the prob may be that you are writing about submissives when you are Dominant how would you really understand all their motivations?

What about self loathing?
What about sexual fear?
What about confidence?
etc etc (sorry negative ones sprang to mind)

These things, in my mind, are not BDSM specific. Self-loathing can lead to someone being motivated to submit by Pain, but the motivation I am interested in indexing is the Pain. In other words, what BDSM acts are happening because of "sexual fear"? Can those acts also be motivated by one of my BDSM specific motivations (perhaps your motivations are the root motivations for my BDSM motivations)? If not, perhaps, I am missing a BDSM specific motivation.

Indexes work (when they do) because smaller things are generalized into bigger things. I see my 4 motivations as an applicable size to index.

Taggard

< Message edited by TallDarkAndWitty -- 9/1/2008 10:58:45 AM >

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Post #: 45

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 11:00:15 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

How about sex drive as one of the motivating factors? I think that's a biggie.

Much like emotional transparency, sex drive is not, in my mind, a BDSM based motivation. If all other things are equal, it is my opinion that sex drive would be the same in or out of a BDSM relationship. My index focuses solely on BDSM based motivations.

Taggard

I agree in part... for many BDSM activity is tied to their Sexual activity.. I think our Drive will be heigthen or lessen by alot of factors... one being doing the things that we enjoy.. like BDSM activity. So.. I don't agree that a person's sex drive will by the same as in or out of BDSM on all cases. It really depends on how much they tie BDSM activity to their sexual activity. However.. I don't see sex drive being a driving force or motivation to engage in BDSM in the first place. I think sex drive will dictate more the frequency we might engage in the activity and not what we will engage in... but it sure hits affects things when we find what we like.. .we wanna do it lots!!! whatever it is.

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Post #: 46

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 11:00:51 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

ahhh so it should be motivations OF bdsm then rather than for

I do not see your distinction...could you elaborate?

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Post #: 47

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 11:01:56 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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I think categorizing bottoms is too difficult because it's for fun, low commitment and yet you can be a slave AND a bottom and have exactly the same motivations involved. Too many levels- it's like asking why people have sex.

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Post #: 48

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 11:03:00 AM

colouredin

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motivations for reads reasons why you are into BDSM motivations of are the motivations once you are involved in BDSM for example self loathing can lead you to become involved in BDSM reasons for being a submissive, you are dealing with the superficial physicality slightly differant and yeah im nit picking but i dont care.

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Post #: 49

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 11:03:30 AM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

How about sex drive as one of the motivating factors? I think that's a biggie.

Much like emotional transparency, sex drive is not, in my mind, a BDSM based motivation. If all other things are equal, it is my opinion that sex drive would be the same in or out of a BDSM relationship. My index focuses solely on BDSM based motivations.

Taggard

Fair enough...BUT... if you want the quiz to carry some kind of accuracy, you're going to have to consider what submissives see as their motivating factors, rather than basing it on your personal opinion. There are plenty of submissives (and doms for that matter) who aren't satisfied sexually unless bdsm is a part of their sexual interactions, for those people the sexual aspects of bdsm may be a very strong (or even the sole motivation) that draws them to bdsm.

Colouredin also brought up a good point, that for some submissives, it may very well be an unhealthy or negative factor that draws them.

I think the first step is to remove your own opinions completely, and poll submissives as to what motivates them specifically. I would bet you'd start to see the same maybe 8 or 10 motivating factors, from which you could then begin to base your 'catagories' on.

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Post #: 50

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 11:28:48 AM

Sundowner

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FR

I've not read the responses and others may spot weaknesses but to me it sounds a brilliant idea. Myers-Briggs is accurate and helpful and - once you've worked it through in practice a while and refined it - I could imagine this being helpful too. (Put me on your mailing list?)

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Post #: 51

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 11:50:08 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I am a dom, so taking the test wouldn't help you out much, but I just want to leap on in and say that you shouldn't underestimate your readership---wayyyy too many of us on here are familiar with psychology, testing, and the like.

I agree with this....work with trysts like this professionally all the time. I agree that the Myers Briggs type approach is beguiling though and the notion of archetypal personality.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 9/1/2008 12:05:59 PM >

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Post #: 52

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 12:05:33 PM

Prinsexx

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RallDarkAndWitty:
Just to say that i have been thinking and re-thinking about your proposal. It has the seeds of being a brilliant test. HOWEVER......there is one factor which i don;t think you can factor in for slavery whatsoever...and that is FORCE. I understand distinctly the difference within myself between my slavery and my submission. For me it is force..as you define it.
In submissive acts there was always some degree of force for me.....moulding, training, teaching, shaping, reward, punishment. In acts of submission i USED to allow myself to hit up against the edge of that training....it was indeed an internal limit i had which i would experience as having gone betond or through by some sort of force...a useful term to group and associate factors such as training, punishment, reward, shaping as used by a dominant.
However; now i have no limits....there is no force. Master's behaviour towards me is not, it simply is not experienced as force. No matter what level of pain, no matter what level of sensory deprivation, no matter what level of sensation.
So: in taking your yest at the moment i would never be a slave by your criterion.
It's rather like having an exceptiona IQ and finding a valid other answer to the Mensa questions that the questionnaire hadn't predicted. (I would get a wrong answer according to the writer;s logic. But get a right answer according to a different logic the writer had not pre-empted).
So; i am asking you to re-think what dimensuon could/would be substituted for force (as within my dunamic and within the dynamics of other slave's i know) there is total absence of it as far as my experience goes.

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Post #: 53

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 12:34:57 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I think the first step is to remove your own opinions completely, and poll submissives as to what motivates them specifically. I would bet you'd start to see the same maybe 8 or 10 motivating factors, from which you could then begin to base your 'catagories' on.

I agree with this approach completely. The factors which are being factored in the questionnaire really do not apply to my experience of slavery...the factors are indeed a common assumption made by someone looking at a Master/slave relationship from outside of the dynamic, both from a vanilla perspective and indeed a bdsm perspective.
Most of my differing of opinion is between myself and friends whop are submissive for example. A submissive friend recently said that i should know better as there was no such thing as 'no limits'. That is because she herself experiences her own submission as having limits and i am assuming she cannot empathize or sincerely does feel there is always limits.
Now if this is an appraisal type questionnaire then i am being asked to SELF-APPRAISE. I personally favour self- appraisal techniques BUT the need for test surveys and pilot runs to acurately ascertain the factors used in self-appraisal is therefore vitally important.
Is this researcher appraisal or is it self-appraisal? Given the very subjective nature of bdsm it surely needs to be self-appraisal if there is any hope ofbreaking outside of the 'paraphilia' trap set out in the DSM IV...albeit text revised the approach is still almost wholly researcher appraisal leading to diagnosis.
Now, if i were a fly on the wall observing most of my bdsm activities, from a researcher point of view what i do is just plain perverse and at best weird and in terms of normal distributioon? Well it's a failure to function adequately, it's also co=dependent, and addictive in terms of tolerance and/or withdrawal symtoms. Look; it's edgy bdsm for goodness sake......
it has to be self-apptraised if it is to make any comparative sense. But you know what; what's even more difficult to build into any self-appraisal technique of what i do? It isn't even up to me what i do....it's up to my Master so actually, now that i come to think of it more closely i would have to ask Master to fill out the questionnaire on my behalf maybe? Since i do not experience his actions as force. since it is unlikely that during certain activities i am making the distinction between internal and extermnal receptivity how could i possibly be accurate in answering any form of appraisal of what i do?
What i mean is there is a point during the most satisfying scenes for me when proprioceptive force becomes pure internal sensation. i don't have the words to describe that point any better than that. But it is an experience of something being done to me becoming something i willingly experience as my own, Instantaneously within my experience, no matter how intense the pain, it is instantly internalesed as pleasure.
Difficult to assess pure subjectivity. I don't think any tests of which i am aware (and god knows there's actually thousands of them of which i am not aware) no tests accurately assess subjectivity. The best of the tests break up a phenomenogical experience into intellectualised somponent parts not actually experienced at the time. tests become a 'best=fit' excercise. The role of self=appraisal tests? useful in assessing personal change rather than finite diagnosis. By definition subkectivity cannot be quantified.
Long live experiential phenomena.

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Post #: 54

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 12:58:54 PM

IrishMist

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quote:

I came up with 4 basic motivations/desires for BDSM bottoms: service, pain, ownership, and force.

quote:

Could you name a type of submission that does not come from one of these four motivations?

Yes...mine.

quote:

Service is the desire to please a dominant personality. It is an internally driven motivation to make someone's life better through work and dedication.

I have no desire to be of service to anyone; Whether in relationship or within my career choice. I do what I do because it's what I want, not what makes another happy.

quote:

Pain, or perhaps sensation, is an externally driven motivation.

Sorry, but pain for me, is internal, not external. I use pain 'internally' to keep in control of the 'external' triggers. Pain, for me, has nothing to do with external motivations and everything to do with what is inside my head.

quote:

Force is the desire to be controlled, physically dominated, and helpless. This is an external motivation.

I have no desire to be controlled, physically dominated or helpless. I am a strong, confident person, and am more than willing to take down anyone who tries to 'physically dominate' me. And the minute I feel helpless, I fight back so that I am once again the strong, confident, self-assured lady who is not afraid to back down from anyone.

quote:

Ownership is the desire to feel owned, possessed, captured. It is an internal motivation.

Once again, sorry, but not for me.

My submission to another has nothing to do with wanting to be of service, wanting to be owned, wanting to be hurt, or wanting to be forced.
I could not even tell you what triggers my submission to certain men. I know for a fact though that your so called 4 basic motivations may be fine for some submissives; but they sure as hell don't cover ALL submissives.

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Post #: 55

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 1:11:54 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
This is exactly why I started this thread! Could you name a type of submission that does not come from one of these four motivations?

Taggard

A big two that immediately scream at me would be freedom and pleasure.

Apology for not replying sooner, by the time I got to the thread, it had moved on apace and I have been contemplating your statement of ' bdsm based motivation'

Like sex drive. I would have listed that without a second thought, because for many people sex is driven with/by bdsm based motivation.

To feel. Some people simply cannot feel without BDSM, in the same way people cut to feel.

To love. Without BDSM as a motivator, they cannot have a loving relationship.

Commitment. Without BDSM, people do not have LTR.

Authority.

To belong. Without BDSM as the motivation, they do not feel they belong, in fact they wouldn't even participate in group settings. I would say this plays a big factor in leather community structures, at least the ones I have known.

To feel safe.

To feel freedom. I have lost count of the times s-types cite bondage as a reason they enjoy it because it enables them to be free and to be themselves.

I would say confidence is a biggie.

Pleasure. You completely left that out, particularly if you are going to include pain.

On the listings, I disagree with 'the bottom' - many perform a service so it would not be a minus.
I would also remove 'rape' because having minus pain doesn't fit. Victim makes sense though. Maybe even powerless.

Not sure if I made any sense.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 9/1/2008 1:27:59 PM >

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Post #: 56

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 1:14:56 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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I hope that nobody minds a rather long response to this. I find this topic fascinating.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

So I have been working on a quiz for OKCupid called "The BDSM Bottom Quiz", in which I attempt to ascertain a submissive/masochist/bottom/slave's "type" by having them rank BDSM activities, like a checklist. In thinking this test through, I came up with 4 basic motivations/desires for BDSM bottoms: service, pain, ownership, and force.

I would replace the last concept with the concept of 'power' or 'energy', but other than that, I find these four motivations to be a good starting point for -many- (not necessarily all) who wander down this road.

quote:

Service is the desire to please a dominant personality. It is an internally driven motivation to make someone's life better through work and dedication.

I agree that Service is an internal motivation. That being said, Service -cannot- be a desire to please someone else... if we accept that it is an internal motivation, then it is also necessary to accept that service itself -- the desire to do for others that comes from within -- is sufficiently the goal. The pleasure of service, if this is the core motivation, comes from a job well done, and the knowledge that life has been made easier for another.

quote:

Pain, or perhaps sensation, is an externally driven motivation.

I would replace this with "intensity". I disagree that pain/intensity is an externally driven motivation. I believe that all of the motivations of BDSM are internal motivations, coming from inside, and a desire for a certain experience. Regardless of whether pain is applied by oneself or another, the motivation and experiences themselves are internally driven. I would replace "pain" with "intensity", and this might capture a larger segment of the population, since there are many who are driven towards intense experiences but who do not actively seek -pain- per se.

quote:

Ownership is the desire to feel owned, possessed, captured. It is an internal motivation.

quote:

Force is the desire to be controlled, physically dominated, and helpless. This is an external motivation.

As I said earlier, I would replace this with "power" or "energy" or even "authority". Again, I would consider all of these 'internal' motivations. This does require expression through an external source, but the motivation itself... the desire to be overpowered, energetically overwhelmed, or to have someone "take authority over" are still internal motivations.

quote:

Most s-types enjoy some of each, but I have found that very few desire, in any great extent, all four.

quote:

Along with the motivations, I have been toying with "Roles" for the various combinations of desires (and lack thereof), much like the Myers-Briggs Type Index.

+Service, +Pain, +Ownership, +Force: The Field Slave
+Service, +Pain, +Ownership, -Force: The House Slave
+Service, +Pain, -Ownership, +Force: The Indentured Servant
+Service, +Pain, -Ownership, -Force: The Eager Masochist
+Service, -Pain, +Ownership, +Force: The Lazy Slave
+Service, -Pain, +Ownership, -Force: The Valet/The Handmaiden
+Service, -Pain, -Ownership, +Force: The Misbehaving Servant
+Service, -Pain, -Ownership, -Force: The Butler/The Maid
-Service, +Pain, +Ownership, +Force: The Fuck Toy
-Service, +Pain, +Ownership, -Force: The Rag Doll
-Service, +Pain, -Ownership, +Force: The Bottom
-Service, +Pain, -Ownership, -Force: The Punching Bag
-Service, -Pain, +Ownership, +Force: The Wild Animal
-Service, -Pain, +Ownership, -Force: The Pet
-Service, -Pain, -Ownership, +Force: The Rape Victim
-Service, -Pain, -Ownership, -Force: The Scoop of Vanilla

I would name these slightly differently --

+Service, +Intensity, +Ownership, +Power: The Slave
+Service, +Intensity, +Ownership, -Power: The Bond-Servant
+Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, +Power: The Indentured Servant
+Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, -Power: The Eager Masochist
+Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, +Power: The Zen Servant
+Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, -Power: The Valet/The Handmaiden
+Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, +Power: The Guided Servant
+Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, -Power: The Sacred Prostitute
-Service, +Intensity, +Ownership, +Power: The Bleeding Captive
-Service, +Intensity, +Ownership, -Power: The Rag Doll
-Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, +Power: The Bottom
-Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, -Power: The Intensity Slut
-Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, +Power: The Trophy Husband/Wife
-Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, -Power: The Pet
-Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, +Power: The Acolyte
-Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, -Force: The Undiscovered

quote:

This is a work in progress, but I am really liking where it is going.

Thoughts? Volunteers to take the test and provide feedback?

Taggard

I think is really cool... I'd be willing to help work on it, just for kicks and giggles.

CFB

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 9/1/2008 1:21:45 PM >

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Post #: 57

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 1:17:00 PM

leadership527

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Well, you missed my favorite, to which mine absolutely agrees. This is, by far, her single largest motivtion.

Mine does not like to have authority. Making choices makes her uncomfortable.

In her defense lest someone get the wrong picture, she certainly CAN make decisons and does so as needed throughout the day. She'd just prefer not to within the context of our marriage. The rest of the things she mentions I think pretty much fit into your +Service category...

- She likes to be pleasing
- She likes to know exactly what to do in order to be pleasing (certainty of success in being pleasing)
- She likes praise from men (the confirmation of being pleasing).

In addition, I'm not sure where this fits into your categories at all, it may be orthogonal, but from a just plain pragmatic standpoint, she thinks our marriage is running better now that some specific person is clearly responsible for that. We are closer to together as life partners... +Love maybe?

Heh, so mine is a -Authority, +Love, +Service sub. That more or less sounds like a really really obedient vanilla wife which I think about sums it up.

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Post #: 58

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 1:34:03 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I would name these slightly differently --

+Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, +Power: The Indentured Servant
+Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, +Power: The Zen Servant
+Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, +Power: The Guided Servant
+Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, -Power: The Sacred Prostitute
-Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, -Power: The Intensity Slut
-Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, +Power: The Trophy Husband/Wife
-Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, +Power: The Acolyte
-Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, -Force: The Undiscovered

Using your structure, I can totally see how these work and personally find that they rock. I would still like to see a more inclusive selection than the four though - I find pain different to intensity so would like to see that in there, feeling/belonging also to be core factors.

the.dark.

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Post #: 59

RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 1:47:57 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Using your structure, I can totally see how these work and personally find that they rock. I would still like to see a more inclusive selection than the four though - I find pain different to intensity so would like to see that in there, feeling/belonging also to be core factors.

the.dark.

Like the Meyers-Briggs, in my mind this can only go so far to determining thought processes and motivations, especially as Taggard designed this to deal more specifically with submissive mindsets. It would be an interesting exercise, though, I think, to try and put something like this together that extends the range along the entire spectrum, to include the entire scope from dominant to submissive... perhaps some combination of a Meyers Briggs type scale and a Kinsey type scale.

I've always considered pain to be 'very high' to 'extreme' intensity -- sort of like describing fire from candle-flame to fire storm.

An amazing idea. Some folks might not be interested, but for those who are, I think it is a really cool process to consider.

Calla Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 9/1/2008 1:54:56 PM >

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Post #: 60

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