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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 2:01:43 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz
Personally I like quizzes like this- and I'm not threatened by labels. Jeeze people, its not like you have to have it tattooed on your forehead. People get so caught up in being open minded, that their brain falls out.

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 2:27:50 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

How about sex drive as one of the motivating factors? I think that's a biggie.

Much like emotional transparency, sex drive is not, in my mind, a BDSM based motivation. If all other things are equal, it is my opinion that sex drive would be the same in or out of a BDSM relationship. My index focuses solely on BDSM based motivations.

Taggard

For me there is no distinction between sex drive and bdsm. I would go further and have to say that bdsm for me is part of a continuum along which sex can and does happen at any point. Bdsm makes for great foreplay but sex can come first and then bdsm. and actually the more i think about it the more i am at a loss to define what i mean by sex outside of a bdsm context.
I am aware that i used to have reltionships, have had relationships where bdsm did not figure. However they were not sustainable relationships.
My morivation is libidinous, in the sense that i am almost entirely motivated by libisinous activity: the need to be used in a sexualised context. Get that right and i feel fixed, i feel whole, i feel complete and morivated to do everything else. when that has not been right i have fallen apart.
this is because i was exalised at a very early age indeed...around 2 or 3 years old if i count early memories of masturbation.
I can just about understand how hanky spanky can be non-sexual. I can just about understand how role play can be non-sexual. i can just about understand how public bdsm 'behaviour' based play can be non-sexual but i don't do it that way, never have and i am assuming, that since this is how my Master wants me to be, then i am assun=ming i will never do non sexualised bdsm.
So i would want the questionnaire to state this as a disclaimer or at least make it clear that the questionnaire relates to non sexual behaviour. In which case i would have to write N/A and hand it back unanswered.

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 2:36:01 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I would name these slightly differently --

+Service, +Intensity, +Ownership, +Power: The Slave
+Service, +Intensity, +Ownership, -Power: The Bond-Servant
+Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, +Power: The Indentured Servant
+Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, -Power: The Eager Masochist
+Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, +Power: The Zen Servant
+Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, -Power: The Valet/The Handmaiden
+Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, +Power: The Guided Servant
+Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, -Power: The Sacred Prostitute
-Service, +Intensity, +Ownership, +Power: The Bleeding Captive
-Service, +Intensity, +Ownership, -Power: The Rag Doll
-Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, +Power: The Bottom
-Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, -Power: The Intensity Slut
-Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, +Power: The Trophy Husband/Wife
-Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, -Power: The Pet
-Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, +Power: The Acolyte
-Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, -Force: The Undiscovered

I think is really cool... I'd be willing to help work on it, just for kicks and giggles.

CFB

I think it is getter cooler...
however i find myself trying to figure out a sefinition for power with inductive resoning here Calla nd finding i cannot quite figure it out.
(Loving the sacred prostitute definitions and the Undiscovered. very therapeutic and enabling.).
Could you, would you say something more about power in this context please?
Oh i would have loved Jung to have come up with this. It might have healed his relationship with Freud the poor lamb.........

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 2:52:36 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
This is exactly why I started this thread! Could you name a type of submission that does not come from one of these four motivations?

Taggard

A big two that immediately scream at me would be freedom and pleasure.

Apology for not replying sooner, by the time I got to the thread, it had moved on apace and I have been contemplating your statement of ' bdsm based motivation'

Like sex drive. I would have listed that without a second thought, because for many people sex is driven with/by bdsm based motivation.

To feel. Some people simply cannot feel without BDSM, in the same way people cut to feel.

To love. Without BDSM as a motivator, they cannot have a loving relationship.

Commitment. Without BDSM, people do not have LTR.

Authority.

To belong. Without BDSM as the motivation, they do not feel they belong, in fact they wouldn't even participate in group settings. I would say this plays a big factor in leather community structures, at least the ones I have known.

To feel safe.

To feel freedom. I have lost count of the times s-types cite bondage as a reason they enjoy it because it enables them to be free and to be themselves.

I would say confidence is a biggie.

Pleasure. You completely left that out, particularly if you are going to include pain.

On the listings, I disagree with 'the bottom' - many perform a service so it would not be a minus.
I would also remove 'rape' because having minus pain doesn't fit. Victim makes sense though. Maybe even powerless.

Not sure if I made any sense.

the.dark.

Yes you make perfect sense but i actually think that the OPener is confusing two entirely different aspects of personality.
He says:
~In thinking this test through, I came up with 4 basic motivations/desires for BDSM bottoms: service, pain, ownership, and force.~
In my professional experience the definitions are not assessing motivations they are assessing traits.
Now the connection between personality traits and motivation is not that clear across the literature, nor is it similar across different approaches....psychological approaches that is.
First off we have the HUGE chasm between motivation being innate (hierarchical but innate as with Maslow) and motivation being learned ((Skinner...well watsonif you insist.).
And of course the entire debate about if it's possible to access what is repressed about the self, what's falsifiable and so on.
I don't think the nature nurture debate will ever be solved (just as long as we have dichotomous thinking, insistence on a mind-body split, and the snail trail of Descartes to mop up, however i actually think the 'quiz' is more of a valid test, or could become a valid test of submissive traits rather than a test of morivation.
Tests for morivation are an all together different Aarena, far far more complex markers, some of which you have admirably set out above.
The motivations for bdsm remain, in my opinion, indistincrt from daily life motivations. another argument for dissolving the divion between life and lifestyale.
Ask me what my motivations for being a slave are and i would have to ask for the question to be re-phrased as ask me what my motivations to me are.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 9/1/2008 2:54:46 PM >

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 3:04:51 PM

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Maybe I'm having a D'oh moment and this has been obvious to everyone but me, but as I'm reading the posts here, the various motivations (care, freedom, sex, love, security, service, even pain or control, etc) really seem human-based, and not at all exclusive to the participants of bdsm. What is Bdsm-based is the outlet/expression of choice that some people use to get those needs met. Maybe the key to finding Meyers-Briggs-esque catagories would be to find out why certain people seek to meet their needs (love, freedom, sex etc) via bdsm as opposed to a "vanilla" existance. I think if we could reduce it down to that, we might become closer to finding factors that are "bdsm-based", but somehow I doubt it.

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 3:08:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

The motivations for bdsm remain, in my opinion, indistincrt from daily life motivations. another argument for dissolving the divion between life and lifestyale.

Yes. This.

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 3:15:35 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
I've always considered pain to be 'very high' to 'extreme' intensity -- sort of like describing fire from candle-flame to fire storm.

I can totally see that now - like a lightbulb moment. Intensity in this case would be an excellent choice because it can encompass pain, love, fear etc. All of these I see as an internal motivation and I totally agree it will open out the 'gene pool' as it were.

quote:

An amazing idea. Some folks might not be interested, but for those who are, I think it is a really cool process to consider.

Calla Firestorm

I believe it to be an interesting idea if it is constructed well.

If people are happy to do 'what kind of dog are you' in the polls and random, then I don't see how this can be any less interesting. I'd like to see one for Tops/Dominants as well. My only thought is that it should be completed in the same way using similar psychological types - if that makes sense?

the.dark.

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 3:28:45 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

I think it is getter cooler...
however i find myself trying to figure out a sefinition for power with inductive resoning here Calla nd finding i cannot quite figure it out.
(Loving the sacred prostitute definitions and the Undiscovered. very therapeutic and enabling.).
Could you, would you say something more about power in this context please?
Oh i would have loved Jung to have come up with this. It might have healed his relationship with Freud the poor lamb.........

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 3:47:20 PM

RCdc

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I like the idea of authority, but I don't know if it replaces power as a good model. For example, in Taggards Victim scenario, it would not fit.

quote:

-Service, -Pain, -Ownership, +Force: The Rape Victim

quote:

-Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, +Authority: The Rape Victim

to yours it does fit. But it changes the entire concept of the victim, and the victim does exist.

quote:

-Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, +Authority: The Acolyte

the.dark.

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 4:13:17 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

I think it is getter cooler...
however i find myself trying to figure out a sefinition for power with inductive resoning here Calla nd finding i cannot quite figure it out.
(Loving the sacred prostitute definitions and the Undiscovered. very therapeutic and enabling.).
Could you, would you say something more about power in this context please?
Oh i would have loved Jung to have come up with this. It might have healed his relationship with Freud the poor lamb.........

The more I think about it, the more I feel that "Authority" is a better fit for this category, where a +Authority implies having someone else in command at some level, from 'request' thru perhaps 'demand' all the way to 'force', and where -Authority means a preference for self-direction.

That would restructure the categories as:

+Service, +Intensity, +Ownership, +Authority: The Slave
+Service, +Intensity, +Ownership, -Authority: The Bond-Servant
+Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, +Authority: The Indentured Servant
+Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, -Authority: The Eager Masochist
+Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, +Authority: The Zen Servant
+Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, -Authority: The Valet/The Handmaiden
+Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, +Authority: The Guided Servant
+Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, -Authority: The Sacred Prostitute
-Service, +Intensity, +Ownership, +Authority: The Suffering Captive
-Service, +Intensity, +Ownership, -Authority: The Rag Doll
-Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, +Authority: The Bottom
-Service, +Intensity, -Ownership, -Authority: The Intensity Slut
-Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, +Authority: The Trophy Husband/Wife
-Service, -Intensity, +Ownership, -Authority: The Pet
-Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, +Authority: The Acolyte
-Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, -Authority: The Undiscovered

Thoughts?

Calla

My thoughts are: blimey how many of those have i been before finally making it as a 'The Slave'?
OK..seriously i like the shift to the factor of authority rather than power...this i understand but i can only really grasp it as a factor for a D type. Absence of authority works a s a factor for The Pet but for Slave it is transferred to the |owner rather than contained within the slave.
i rather like the term; empowerment. transferring my power empowers me....so substituting empowerment for authority does that work i wonder?
wonder how many Pets are going to argue with having no empowerment....?
Anyway if it is a choice between power and authority it surely has to be authority given the shift from power exchange to authority transfer as a more universally accepted description of the maor dynamic.
Could we use; Prisoner instead of suffering captive?
PS adding; yes, i'll turn out to be sometimes a zen servant, always a slave......bugger about 2% of the community....rare lol just like on the Myers Briggs...(intuitive extroverted thinker perceiver if i remmeber......)

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 4:17:22 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I like the idea of authority, but I don't know if it replaces power as a good model. For example, in Taggards Victim scenario, it would not fit.

quote:

-Service, -Pain, -Ownership, +Force: The Rape Victim

to

quote:

-Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, +Authority: The Rape Victim

to yours it does fit. But it changes the entire concept of the victim, and the victim does exist.

quote:

-Service, -Intensity, -Ownership, +Authority: The Acolyte

the.dark.

Yes you are right.
force and authority are polar constructs......
There has to be a construct somewhere between force and authority that encapsulates both.
Damn it i'm doing the on line thesaurs now and still can't arrive at it.

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/1/2008 4:26:27 PM

Prinsexx

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Service, Intensity, Ownership, Constraint ?

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/2/2008 6:11:20 AM

WinsomeDefiance

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What labels would I have picked? Those more along the lines of what CallaFireStorm (sp?) listed. Your initial choices seemed to be more negatively slanted across the board, and hinted at a negative stereotyping that I was not comfortable with. Just my personal first impression of the labels you listed in your OP.

When my attention span allows, personality and IQ tests are fun - I like to take them and usually think - what the hell, why not. I see no reason to make BDSM labels soft and fuzzy and feel good - but neither do I think they need to be stereotypically negative either.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 9/2/2008 6:15:15 AM >

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/2/2008 11:55:41 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
f you want the quiz to carry some kind of accuracy, you're going to have to consider what submissives see as their motivating factors, rather than basing it on your personal opinion.

That isn't, typicaly, how the science works. The scientific method requires that one can test a scientific hypothesis, and not just randomly sample people for what they think things are. My hypothesis is that BDSM bottom-types can be indexed along 4 indicators. Now, I need to finish my tests, have people take them and see if my results match reality.

quote:

There are plenty of submissives (and doms for that matter) who aren't satisfied sexually unless bdsm is a part of their sexual interactions, for those people the sexual aspects of bdsm may be a very strong (or even the sole motivation) that draws them to bdsm.

I disagree. I think they would want sex even if they didn't want BDSM. Unless they are into BDSM because they can't get laid any other way, I don't see sex as a motivation for BDSM activities. In other words, I don't see how wearing a ball gag can be inspired by the desire for sex. I can see how sex would be better with a ball gag if a person had a desire for both sex and having Force exerted on them at the same time, but the sex doesn't drive the desire to be gagged.

quote:

Colouredin also brought up a good point, that for some submissives, it may very well be an unhealthy or negative factor that draws them.

You can like being flogged, because you like feeling pain, because you have self-esteem issues, but the desire for pain is, in my opinion, the more inclusive motivation. In other words, people like Pain for all sorts of reasons, and people like certain BDSM activities because they like Pain.

quote:

I think the first step is to remove your own opinions completely, and poll submissives as to what motivates them specifically. I would bet you'd start to see the same maybe 8 or 10 motivating factors, from which you could then begin to base your 'catagories' on.

This is exactly what I have been doing, in an informal manner, for the last 14 years. I find the psychological reasons behind BDSM utterly fascinating and have been working on this since I entered the scene. I have interacted with thousands of people in the scene, and have personally intereviewed hundreds. These 4 indicators are what I have found to be the repeating BDSM specific motivations.

Taggard

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/2/2008 11:59:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
So; i am asking you to re-think what dimensuon could/would be substituted for force (as within my dunamic and within the dynamics of other slave's i know) there is total absence of it as far as my experience goes.

So you think there are no slaves out there who desire Force in their relationships? I know one quite well...my own Kat. She adores being forced to do things...being tied up...having her hair roughly grabbed and being pushed down on my cock until she gags. Those are the Force actions in my mind, and I haven't met many slaves who aren't motivated by that kind of play.

That said, you may not...and that is totally understandable, but it doesn't mean that others don't.

Taggard

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/2/2008 12:07:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
I could not even tell you what triggers my submission to certain men. I know for a fact though that your so called 4 basic motivations may be fine for some submissives; but they sure as hell don't cover ALL submissives.

Well, what kinds of activities do you like? Why do you like them? You have said none of these things motivate you, but you have not said what does.

You are a submissive who does not like to be dominated? That simply does not make sense to me. You don't like being tied up? (That is being controlled.) You don't like being flogged? (Either for the pain or for the feeling it gives you to be used that way for someone's pleasure.) What do you do that would be described as a BDSM relationship activity that doesn't involve Pain, Control, Service or Force? I can go through a checklist and ascribe at least one of these indicators to each and every item (barring Fetish activities), so what is it that you do?

Taggard

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/2/2008 12:22:39 PM

Captivated631

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The giving for me is a gift of self to someone I feel so compelled to serve that there can be only one purpose - to serve her will....

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/2/2008 12:56:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
So; i am asking you to re-think what dimensuon could/would be substituted for force (as within my dunamic and within the dynamics of other slave's i know) there is total absence of it as far as my experience goes.

So you think there are no slaves out there who desire Force in their relationships? I know one quite well...my own Kat. She adores being forced to do things...being tied up...having her hair roughly grabbed and being pushed down on my cock until she gags. Those are the Force actions in my mind, and I haven't met many slaves who aren't motivated by that kind of play.

That said, you may not...and that is totally understandable, but it doesn't mean that others don't.

Taggard

Tag -- to me, the way you're describing 'force' would seem to stick it under the same category as "pain", considering that 'discomfort' is a lower level of pain and what you are describing seems more to be a desire for externally-applied discomfort. That would make one category or the other essentially redundant.

Calla

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/2/2008 1:08:30 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
So; i am asking you to re-think what dimensuon could/would be substituted for force (as within my dunamic and within the dynamics of other slave's i know) there is total absence of it as far as my experience goes.

So you think there are no slaves out there who desire Force in their relationships? I know one quite well...my own Kat. She adores being forced to do things...being tied up...having her hair roughly grabbed and being pushed down on my cock until she gags. Those are the Force actions in my mind, and I haven't met many slaves who aren't motivated by that kind of play.

That said, you may not...and that is totally understandable, but it doesn't mean that others don't.

Taggard

Tag -- to me, the way you're describing 'force' would seem to stick it under the same category as "pain", considering that 'discomfort' is a lower level of pain and what you are describing seems more to be a desire for externally-applied discomfort. That would make one category or the other essentially redundant.

Calla

If he does - then could the possibility exist where force/pain become intensity therefore making neither redundant and using Auhority to replace the empty slot? Would that make sense?

the.dark.

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RE: Motivations for BDSM - 9/2/2008 1:22:22 PM

scarlethiney

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Taggard,

Awesome idea! I would also love to take your test.

As varied as personalities are it is doubtful you will ever find any one set of "Types" that resonate with every one. After reading all the posts it appears to me that the more dominant the person the less likely they are to agree with you.
My personal observation...........doesn't make it right or wrong just makes it mine.

Good luck with your work! I think you have great insight.

scarlet

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