RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 2:39:31 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slotlover

The minimum wage unfortunately is one of those very popular but incredibly stupid ideas that most people will never understand because they have never learned the basics of economic principles. Just think it through: If mandating a minimum wage for *any* labor is a good thing, why stop at $7.50 or even $20 an hour? Why not mandate $100 an hour? What effects would that have?

..hmm......why set income tax at whatever level it is now? Why not 50%, why not 99%.? Why only invade countries that attack other countries? Why not invade countries that have things we want?
Taking any dynamic and suggesting that at its extreme it is absurd is a ridiculous argument. It applies to anything. You appear to be suggesting that there is no middle ground, no sensible level. Not exactly a rigorously intellectual position.

(in reply to slotlover)

Post #: 101

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 2:44:11 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

Philosophy,

I have no problem with the min wage being set at a livable wage. The issue for me is that by doing it as a national raise, it does not take into account the economies of the people best suited for making such a judgement, the state government. Each state has it's own economic strengths and weaknesses, and introducing more federal mandates and taxes, does not address those strengths and weaknesses, it simply suggests that we all must be the same.

Hope that clears up my position on it.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 102

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 2:46:55 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark
How is it you surmise that Obama didn't live the "black" experience? Single Mother, raised in a large part by Grandparents, Went to college on scholarship and student loans oh...and not to mention the color of his skin? just curious... Does being successful at what he has done to rise to the Nominee of a major political party disqualify him? Have I missed something? In actuality to be of a mixed race might have been tougher than being of either race...not sure about it Myself...I am just another Old White Guy....and only lived the Old White Guy Experience....

His ancestry does not come out of the African American Slave or The Civil Rights Experiences. And his life story has little resemblence to the overwhelming majority of African Americans

This is not a new debate:

http://www.r8ny.com/blog/rwallnerny/barack_obama_and_the_african_american_vote.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/19/OBAMA.TMP

(in reply to SilverMark)

Post #: 103

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 3:09:02 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

xX, it did work. It could work and it would work. My neighbor used to make almost $60,000 a year, he has experience and years under his belt with the same company. For screwing up one job he was dismissed. That is because of supply and demand.

Unemployment is higher than ANYONE thinks. Tons of people are looking for work. In the past he would have certainly be fined or reprimanded in some way, but not dismissed. Now he makes about half of that, and is not included at all in those who are counted among the unemployed.

There is another factor that those who have been in a corporate shell are isolated from, which is the minimum wage means nothing. It may mean that your next big mac is $2.49 instead of $2.39, but that's about it.

Someone who has been around small business knows that most companies grossing less than $400,000 a year are either sole proprietorships or small S corporations. Therefore there is no evidence, no way to prosecute. Just another lame law completely lacking in any enforcement abilities. It means nothing.

Of course it is different if you own a McD's or BK franchise, but if you do you have three choices. You can raise prices, cut staff or take about a 3% cut in earnings.

The fact is that this country cannot recover doing what they do in Chinese factories, we need skills and we need to do things that are difficult, that are beyond the capability of slave or almost slave labor across the globe. It really doesn't help that the Parents and teachers here have refused to teach. (there are exceptions, you know who you are)

The olman (my Father) has a pretty good take on the situation because of his experience. He says that it looks like we are going to become a nation of warriors, and not much else. That's what happened to Rome, and it has been professed many times that we are following the path of the old Romans. Remember what happened to Rome ?

Slowly but surely we are on that path, when the city is on fire you grab a fiddle. Clinton grabbed a saxophone.

Logic is out the window and has been for some time. It is not just the government, it is the people as well. Many are lazy and will always take the easy way out.

There is no solution that I can see, and I am a natural born troubleshooter. If you know what that is fine, if not ask and I will tell you. I have thought out thousands of scenarios that might help this country regain what it once had and all I do is run into those proverbial brick walls.

T

(in reply to slotlover)

Post #: 104

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 3:24:15 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Philosophy,

I have no problem with the min wage being set at a livable wage. The issue for me is that by doing it as a national raise, it does not take into account the economies of the people best suited for making such a judgement, the state government. Each state has it's own economic strengths and weaknesses, and introducing more federal mandates and taxes, does not address those strengths and weaknesses, it simply suggests that we all must be the same.

Hope that clears up my position on it.

....ah, i see. It's a concept known in the EU as subsidiarity. Basically, the lowest level a decision can be made is the appropriate level. No argument here.

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 105

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 3:28:51 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

Exactly. I want less Federal intrusion into decisions that are best handled by local and state government.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 106

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 3:29:44 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

oops...apparently, i couldn't find anything saying he'd been married prior to Michelle. Guessi read something too quickly once.

I think thats what happened when I said the thing about the middle east. Lol. It must be an epidemic I have started.

Relax, huh? I know it seemed everyone piled on but sometimes all the responses come at once. I think it was especially touchy because a lot of people have believed those rumors. There's only one person that doesn't make mistakes, and it's really been a huge burden for me.

(in reply to xXLithiumXx)

Post #: 107

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 3:37:30 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

As I've said before the Dems are going to be kicking themselves in November for not nominating Hillary.
People aren't going to vote for a Global Socialist who wants to give their money away to foreign countries.

I believe you are right popeye even though I don't think Obama would be anymore a socialist then the repubs. Depends on who you socialize...

But I am resigned to believe that even with the general disgust over Iraq among other issues, and the respubs being a minority party...unless every last eligible american of african descent is a confirmed registered voter...votes and 90%+ for Obama...he will lose...and only because he black.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 108

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 3:41:28 PM

lronitulstahp

Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark
How is it you surmise that Obama didn't live the "black" experience? Single Mother, raised in a large part by Grandparents, Went to college on scholarship and student loans oh...and not to mention the color of his skin? just curious... Does being successful at what he has done to rise to the Nominee of a major political party disqualify him? Have I missed something? In actuality to be of a mixed race might have been tougher than being of either race...not sure about it Myself...I am just another Old White Guy....and only lived the Old White Guy Experience....

His ancestry does not come out of the African American Slave or The Civil Rights Experiences. And his life story has little resemblence to the overwhelming majority of African Americans

This is not a new debate:

http://www.r8ny.com/blog/rwallnerny/barack_obama_and_the_african_american_vote.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/19/OBAMA.TMP

This doesn't even deserve recognition it's so bogus. Let me get this straight...so if my ancestors weren't called racial epithets, and treated as "less than" citizens 400 years ago, but i was...my black american experience is now defunct? And your expertise on being black in America comes from where? Sorry if i seem highly sensitive, but it's a sensitive subject. Debating it and living it are two very seperate things...and not at all equal.

< Message edited by lronitulstahp -- 9/4/2008 3:42:40 PM >

_____________________________

Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 109

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 3:54:56 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

OK, for the record, I am both PRO-obama (in a vacuum) and, in general, rabidly against the republican party (in general). That being said, I find the following statements both unfair and uncalled for...

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxLithiumxx
Like I said in the post before this one, McCain has a some what shady history. As a woman, I wouldnt trust a man who uses his record shamlessly to win a seat in office, which he has tried to do in this election. (I have seen several ads about wouldnt you like to have a veteran on your side, or some such drizzle) Nor, would I trust a man who met one wife while still with a wife. It seems to me from that stand point that he doesnt know what he wants. NOR, would I trust a man who is known for his temper, and his love of war

Insofar as him using his record to win a seat, what else WOULD you have him use? As far as I am concerned, McCain's record in the armed forces is commendable and a valid part of who he is and perfectly appropriate to bring up in an election discussion. Insofar as his wife situation, that's none of my business, mostly because these things are almost always too tangled to understand from the outside. I didn't like it when the republican's brought similar issues up with Clinton and I like it even less with the McCain situation. I cannot comment on his temper adequately, but I somehow sincerely doubt that anyone with his history "loves war".

Just because I dislike the man's personal political views and those of his party doesn't mean he ought to be demonized.

Unfortunately, just as he's abandoned all his previous positions to kow-tow to every special interest in his party, he has gone beyond touting his record to using it as a shield. When asked about McCain's inability to remember how many houses he owns, campaign aide Brian Rogers told the Washington Post, "This is a guy who lived in one house for five-and-a-half years--in prison.". McCain himself has used similar statements in response to this and other criticisms. Running on your record is fine, blatantly courting sympathy to deflect from criticism is not.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/4/2008 3:55:55 PM >

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 110

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 4:21:13 PM

bestbabync

Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline

Philosophy-

i have several friends that have small businesses and they worry alot about the increase in taxes that Obama proposes, which one friend told me could equal 56%! That and the higher minimum wage will put him out of business! Also he mentioned the death tax increase from 15% to 45%!

oh...things will get worse before they get better!

_____________________________

"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 111

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 4:23:43 PM

bestbabync

Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline

obviously you never met a war veteran!

_____________________________

"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 112

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 4:28:11 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Philosophy,

I have no problem with the min wage being set at a livable wage. The issue for me is that by doing it as a national raise, it does not take into account the economies of the people best suited for making such a judgement, the state government. Each state has it's own economic strengths and weaknesses, and introducing more federal mandates and taxes, does not address those strengths and weaknesses, it simply suggests that we all must be the same.

Hope that clears up my position on it.

I agree...we should have a minimum wage at a living wage. Then at some point that living wage...has a minimum. Then we ARE all the same.

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 113

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 4:33:38 PM

MistressNew

Posts: 112
Joined: 5/5/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

Philosophy-

i have several friends that have small businesses and they worry alot about the increase in taxes that Obama proposes, which one friend told me could equal 56%! That and the higher minimum wage will put him out of business! Also he mentioned the death tax increase from 15% to 45%!

oh...things will get worse before they get better!

That's what the republicans are saying, but it's easy enough to debunk. Your friends are wrong.

http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

www.barackobama.com/pdf/SmallBusinessFINAL.pdf

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/mccains_small-business_bunk.html

The first two are about individual tax cuts and the last two are geared towards small business. One is directly from Obama's campaign, but I only put it in so your friends could have more detail than the factcheck one gives.

Remember how Bush's people spread lies via a whisper campaign about McCain ("He has a black baby") in SC in 2000? Those same people now work for McCain and are spreading this lie, among others. This is what they do. Get the facts.

(in reply to bestbabync)

Post #: 114

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 4:40:48 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

i have several friends that have small businesses and they worry alot about the increase in taxes that Obama proposes, which one friend told me could equal 56%! That and the higher minimum wage will put him out of business! Also he mentioned the death tax increase from 15% to 45%!

..your friends appear to be buying propaganda. MistressNew has linked to sites that appear to debunk your friends fears. Now, how good a friend are you? Will you allay their fears or will you leave them to stew in the hope that they vote Republican instead?

(in reply to bestbabync)

Post #: 115

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 4:51:44 PM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

His ancestry does not come out of the African American Slave or The Civil Rights Experiences. And his life story has little resemblence to the overwhelming majority of African Americans

Racism is, not surprisingly, the same the world over; it's not an experience that is unique to your country. This is why African Americans look to Nelson Mandela or Steve Biko and why they in turn wrote of Gandhi. What's more, you also negate the contribution of the non-black participants in the Civil Rights movement. The principles involved aren't connected to any locality but to the desire for justice.

Mkhonto we Sizwe, Mau Mau, the Panthers? One blood - but not in the mundane sense that you imply matters.

I suppose those who have lived smugly and snugly in the belief that no black person would be President in their lifetime do feel: "Obama can not win" and they would dearly love to spread a sense of inevitablity about the outcome, to discourage the optimists from even showing up.

Personally, I don't know how anyone with the vote could sit an election this historic out - even if it were as hopeless as some try to make out.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 116

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 4:54:18 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

Philosophy-

i have several friends that have small businesses and they worry alot about the increase in taxes that Obama proposes, which one friend told me could equal 56%! That and the higher minimum wage will put him out of business! Also he mentioned the death tax increase from 15% to 45%!

oh...things will get worse before they get better!

It isn't Obama's or McCain's decision to raise taxes. It was Bush's decision.

Bush spent the money. Now the next president has to pay off the bills he ran up.

I've never understood the fixation on not raising taxes. I'd like to fixate on not running up government spending.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to bestbabync)

Post #: 117

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 4:55:51 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNew

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

Philosophy-

i have several friends that have small businesses and they worry alot about the increase in taxes that Obama proposes, which one friend told me could equal 56%! That and the higher minimum wage will put him out of business! Also he mentioned the death tax increase from 15% to 45%!

oh...things will get worse before they get better!

That's what the republicans are saying, but it's easy enough to debunk. Your friends are wrong.

http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

www.barackobama.com/pdf/SmallBusinessFINAL.pdf

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/mccains_small-business_bunk.html

The first two are about individual tax cuts and the last two are geared towards small business. One is directly from Obama's campaign, but I only put it in so your friends could have more detail than the factcheck one gives.

Remember how Bush's people spread lies via a whisper campaign about McCain ("He has a black baby") in SC in 2000? Those same people now work for McCain and are spreading this lie, among others. This is what they do. Get the facts.

Who creates jobs again? The last 2 links you provided are basicly the same source. As Annenberg is a former employer of Obama, and I am sure we won't hear that in their admissions of facts. Don't believe me? Look up the Annnenberg Chicago Challenge, oh what is on that page? Shhh.... another tie to Ayers. Folks are still trying to figure out what happened to the money. Just sayin.

The WaPo article shows some numbers, notice that under McCain's plan that everybody gets a tax cut... this of course is using the numbers they present, with no link to the data they used.

Looking at Obama's site, his thought on offsetting the capital gains taxes and burdens is, and I quote.

quote:

Obama will support small business owners by providing a $500 “Making Work Pay” tax credit to almost every worker in America.

and a tax credit of up to 20% on the first 50k invested in a small business.

Now some of this might be believable and even plausible, if Obama didn't oppose changing or eliminating the AMT, as the AMT only allows for certain deductions, and thus somebody that was able to invest 50k or more in their own startup will not be able to deduct that investment, and hence will still be taxed up front on that money at a higher rate.

Just one more little question, let's say for the sake of discussion that your position is correct and that folks aren't going to be paying higher taxes, how are all of these spending proposals and tax credits going to be paid for?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to MistressNew)

Post #: 118

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 5:00:18 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

We are currently at $7.50 an hour.

Who deserves to be paid so badly for a job (any job)? Someone who's in jail?

Why not make the min wage $20 an hour? Everybody deserves to make at least that much, no?

Excellent idea! Of course then we'll all have to start a charitable organization for disadvantaged CEO's. Imagine if their pay packages are cut to compensate for all those increased salaries. Think about it. They might have to be chaffeured about in a mere Cadillac limo instead of the Bentley. The G-V will have to go and they'll be forced to travel in a Learjet, or, heaven-forbid, on the airlines. First-class, of course. Or, dare I say it? Downgrade from the 24,000 square foot oceanfront mansion with 15 bedrooms and 10 baths to something more modest. Say 10,000 sqare feet inland without even stables and private tennis courts. My heart breaks just imagining the hardship they will have to endure.

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 119

RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 5:06:17 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

If somebody can earn it, why fault them for it? Don't get me wrong I think stockholders need to start taking a more active role in these crazy severance packages, and other perks. However, if a company and its stockholders feel like paying a CEO that ammount, then who am I to argue against it?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 120

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.156